Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[AmRacer]

All the apologists for Pogacar can give us any amount of excuses and explanations for Pogacar’s performance levels. Superior genetics. Superior training. Superior feeding strategies (lol). Zone 2. Seated attack yoga techniques. Yada yada yada. It can all be used to justify, in some people’s eyes, the most ridiculous, credulity busting performances. However, nothing he does will ever remove the stain represented by his affiliation with Mauro Gianetti. No amount of brilliant white sports washing (copyright UAE) will ever take it away. Every win, every performance will have to be accompanied with that huge asterisk. And with it the eternal doubt that any of it was real.

All the Hayters keep hating, that's what they do.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Yesterday the theme in here was that he is motor-doping and today the theme is that he is doping more than Lance , except he didn't even win todays stage, Remco did. What does this say about Remco, is he also a doper?

Absolutely, but he'll end up loosing huge time to Pogacar in the mountains. Remco will have a bad day where he looses minutes, something Pog hasn't had for about two years.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

I understand you, then we put every rider accountable, I'm just against this biased witch-hunt towards 1 single rider (even when he doesn't win) when it's likely that everyone is taking performance enhancers.

Is there anyone else dominating all year around in every road cycling discipline?

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Yesterday the theme in here was that he is motor-doping and today the theme is that he is doping more than Lance , except he didn't even win todays stage, Remco did. What does this say about Remco, is he also a doper?

Interesting question. Let me ask a more relevant one. Why did the best time trialist in the world, who has dominated this discipline since his junior years beat the guy who showed very little ITT talent until he signed for the dirtiest duo in cycling, by such a small margin?

 

[Stablo]

Motor doping is just stupid and even if it's a reality, only Pogacar uses it? Please...

I am actually pretty convinced, that yes IF? they were using it, then the state dictatorship owned bike and team would have the upper hand. You can also ad that Colnago is now owned by the same state nowadays, as is UCI. The reason we are seeing this current "race".

 

[Stablo]

I understand you, then we put every rider accountable, I'm just against this biased witch-hunt towards 1 single rider (even when he doesn't win) when it's likely that everyone is taking performance enhancers.

Not a biased witch hunt, just so obvious that it's Lance 3.0 and almost nobody cares. Like sure they were all on a program with Lance too, but even then there was an edge and immunity for one rider. This is nothing different from what we are seeing today.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Not a biased witch hunt, just so obvious that it's Lance 3.0 and almost nobody cares. Like sure they were all on a program with Lance too, but even then there was an edge and immunity for one rider. This is nothing different from what we are seeing today.

Mate you can't compare Lance to Pogacar. Lance was good once a year, not every bloody raceday for the last 2 years in GT's, classics, week stage races ect.

 

[Abedfo]

For all of Lance's bad traits at least he only had eyes for Le Tour. I'm also almost certain that Lance would never be able to win the Ronde or PR unless he fully focused on it sacrificing the tour.

Pogacar on the other hand competes in EVERY sub discipline in road cycling, never having a bad day and almost always winning.

I hope Tadej comes to CX so Iserbyt can stamp on his rear derailleur 🤣

 

[Stablo]

No, he can't beat Remco or Ganna on a flat TT. A hilly? Of course but I think he doesn't care. He already showed monster performances on flat courses in the Tour. People (including you) forget the Tour is the highest peak of Pogacar. What he shows in April, September are mini peaks, but nothing close to his Tour shape.

Mini peaks? When obilirating everyone else, like if Lance, Froomie, Bertie etc. would have been killing all the specialist while having a mild peak on spring..that's exactly what is so wrong in this picture. Nobody should be dominating everyone on a "mini" peak, on every parcour, all around the year. Somehow you are just buying this.

I still remember that time when Gianettis former protege was dropping Contador like a donkey on a climb. Now he has gotten smarter thought with the unlimited resources and an influence to UCI. There is no way he has started to play the game without cheating.

 

[Stablo]

Mate you can't compare Lance to Pogacar. Lance was good once a year, not every bloody raceday for the last 2 years in GT's, classics, week stage races ect.

That's why I said it's Lance 3.0 upgrade, meaning a lot crazier.

 

[Shakes]

Unfortunately data by itself is never proof. That's why cycling has such a history with doping. Few are interested in finding proof. However, I was curious about the human limit. There is very little documentation on it as exceptions always apply. So not taking it as an absolute hurdle but merely as an indication.

Asker Jeukendrup (Sport Nutrition: An Introduction to Energy Production and Performance (2004) , High-Performance Cycling (2002)) has a vo2max to w/kg translation.
VO2Max of 85-90 with efficiency of 22 percent implies 6.1/6.2 wkg sustainable power.

Our beloved doctor Ferrari stated on his own blog a limit of 6.2/6.3. Which could be boosted to 6.7 with EPO and transfusions. Not beyond.

Let's reformulate Jeukendrups formula. If we assume a vo2max of 90. What should efficiency be for a WKG of 6.7? Then it has to be 35 percent... Vice versa, what does vo2max need to be when efficiency is the standard assumed 22 percent? 145.8. Both beyond the realms of possibility. This is with an assumed weight of 66kg. Also at an efficiency of 85 percent of vo2max effort.

We have seen such implausible numbers not only by Pogacar though. Roglic has done it. Vingegaard has done it and numerous others. Pogacar even puts all of those to shame though so easiest to use as an example. EPO, or anything oxygen related, has two consequences:
VO2Max increases
% of vo2max they can ride at increases

Increased food "nutrition" has the second effect as well though. Supposedly less than EPO (and together gain would be larger). If Nutrition is not smoke and mirrors it can explain part of increase though. However, going from 6.3 to 6.7 remains very large. While 6.3 was arguably already on the limit.

 

[Stablo]

Okey let me be toatally honest here. Not even sure if it's allowed here, but maybe it's up to the moderators to decide on it.

So as I am a Finn I'm not from a big cycling nation. I used to play icehockey for a very long time, some athletes, football etc. added. Today I am a father of two little ones and they are the center of my world. So if I get "angry" about the current state of the sport that I also dearly love, it has no meaning in the bigger state of affairs, but because sports also has a big part in my life, I will always be saying what i think and how I feel about something. After all it gives that extra spark in your life😊Honestly I just don't freaking like what Gianetti&Co are doing to the top3 sport that I like to watch so much.. They say Finland is the happiest nation in the world and don't know even how many years in a row..but maybe it's the honesty and sisu(grit).

The reason I wrote this, because some members think that I am here only to dislike pog, but it couldnt be more far away from the truth.

P.S if you want to understand what being finnish means you just need to listen this:

View: https://youtu.be/fE0RbPsC9uE?si=aYwARSxOZednisJh

My not originally finnish wife surely understood it🙏🏼 and im suprised how well the British choir is pronouncing finnish.

 

[E_F_]

Okey let me be toatally honest here. Not even sure if it's allowed here, but maybe it's up to the moderators to decide on it.

So as I am a Finn I'm not from a big cycling nation. I used to play icehockey for a very long time, some athletes, football etc. added. Today I am a father of two little ones and they are the center of my world. So if I get "angry" about the current state of the sport that I also dearly love, it has no meaning in the bigger state of affairs, but because sports also has a big part in my life, I will always be saying what i think and how I feel about something. After all it gives that extra spark in your life😊Honestly I just don't freaking like what Gianetti&Co are doing to the top3 sport that I like to watch so much.. They say Finland is the happiest nation in the world and don't know even how many years in a row..but maybe it's the honesty and sisu(grit).

The reason I wrote this, because some members think that I am here only to dislike pog, but it couldnt be more far away from the truth.

P.S if you want to understand what being finnish means you just need to listen this:

View: https://youtu.be/fE0RbPsC9uE?si=aYwARSxOZednisJh

My not originally finnish wife surely understood it🙏🏼 and im suprised how well the British choir is pronouncing finnish.

Remember that last night of the Proms! Good stuff.

 

[dr.eve]

All the apologists for Pogacar can give us any amount of excuses and explanations for Pogacar’s performance levels. Superior genetics. Superior training. Superior feeding strategies (lol). Zone 2. Seated attack yoga techniques. Yada yada yada. It can all be used to justify, in some people’s eyes, the most ridiculous, credulity busting performances. However, nothing he does will ever remove the stain represented by his affiliation with Mauro Gianetti. No amount of brilliant white sports washing (copyright UAE) will ever take it away. Every win, every performance will have to be accompanied with that huge asterisk. And with it the eternal doubt that any of it was real.

This and I have mentioned it already too many times. Again: I have no proof that Pogacar is a cheat. I only have suspicion, to me that's his insane ability to be the best all year round, no one else is able to do this. Sure we can call it big Peaks and mini peaks or all you want. I am shocked though that Pogacar can beat MVDP at a mini peak while MVDP would be at his high peak on terrain more suited to him.

Anyway again that's all speculation. Fact is that UAE has proven cheaters whom have proven to use any means necessary to stick to their game (Gianetti). To me Pogacar is indeed stained because of this affiliation.

Speculation about motor doping and what not is quite pointless, just focus on whats there in front of the camera's smiling all day long: Gianetti.

Anyone who thinks thats uncalled for simply does not take the doping history of this sport seriously and apparently has no wish to constantly strive for a clean sport, i know you cant have it 100% clean, but at least we could start by getting rid of the Gianetti's. Maybe then I could believe the next Pogacar.

 

[Stablo]

Remember that last night of the Proms! Good stuff.

And it was actually for the 100th year celebrations of Finland🇫🇮(i remember that I got my promotion in the army same year as a volunteer/conscript like most of us are here)Thank you Brits for this performances,

So not to be totally offtopic, I hate Gianetti&Co🫠

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

This and I have mentioned it already too many times. Again: I have no proof that Pogacar is a cheat. I only have suspicion, to me that's his insane ability to be the best all year round, no one else is able to do this. Sure we can call it big Peaks and mini peaks or all you want. I am shocked though that Pogacar can beat MVDP at a mini peak while MVDP would be at his high peak on terrain more suited to him.

Anyway again that's all speculation. Fact is that UAE has proven cheaters whom have proven to use any means necessary to stick to their game (Gianetti). To me Pogacar is indeed stained because of this affiliation.

Speculation about motor doping and what not is quite pointless, just focus on whats there in front of the camera's smiling all day long: Gianetti.

Anyone who thinks thats uncalled for simply does not take the doping history of this sport seriously and apparently has no wish to constantly strive for a clean sport, i know you cant have it 100% clean, but at least we could start by getting rid of the Gianetti's. Maybe then I could believe the next Pogacar.

Gianetti is just the tip of the iceberg, Saronni is still there, they have Matxin, Guidi, Marcato, Hauptman, Mori,... on their staff. Words fail me to describe how ridiculous this is.

 

[noob]

Wondering if UAE would throw Tadej under the bus like Matxin did with Ricco.

Riccò positive – Saunier Duval out of Tour | Cyclingnews.com

Italian rider Riccardo Riccò of Saunier Duval has tested positive for blood booster Erythropoietin...

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[pelotonIQ]

Wondering if UAE would throw Tadej under the bus like Matxin did with Ricco.

Riccò positive – Saunier Duval out of Tour | Cyclingnews.com

Italian rider Riccardo Riccò of Saunier Duval has tested positive for blood booster Erythropoietin...

www.cyclingnews.com

Did Pogacar test positive?

 

[pelotonIQ]

Gianetti is just the tip of the iceberg, Saronni is still there, they have Matxin, Guidi, Marcato, Hauptman, Mori,... on their staff. Words fail me to describe how ridiculous this is.

After the legal proceedings Manuele Mori and Giuseppe Saronni got acquited and cleared from any wrongdoing. Marcato never tested postive. Hauptman never tested positive. Over at Visma whom are UAE main rivals, we have Grischa Niermann, who admitted to doping EPO for 3 straight years. We have a recent case from Visma with Michel Hessman, tested positive for a doping masking agent. This only begs the question, who else is doping over at Visma. Good luck.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Absolutely, but he'll end up loosing huge time to Pogacar in the mountains. Remco will have a bad day where he looses minutes, something Pog hasn't had for about two years.

In terms of TdF, Pogacar had a bad day in TdF 2024 stage 11 in which he got caught and lost a stage to Vingegaard. You can still have a bad day without losing minutes.

 

[dr.eve]

After the legal proceedings Manuele Mori and Giuseppe Saronni got acquited and cleared from any wrongdoing. Marcato never tested postive. Hauptman never tested positive. Over at Visma whom are UAE main rivals, we have Grischa Niermann, who admitted to doping EPO for 3 straight years. We have a recent case from Visma with Michel Hessman, tested positive for a doping masking agent. This only begs the question, who else is doping over at Visma. Good luck.

There's no need to compare. This is not about who's the bigger doper. Besides that you know well that Niermann and Hessman cases do not compare in the slightest to Gianetti and Matxin.

But in case you wonder, yes I wish people like Niermann (and many more) would be out. Somehow we do not tolerate Lance because he's apparently the worst and if you're not Lance we allow you to stay in this sport... Where's the cut off? What Lance did was wrong but what Gianetti did was OK to give him multiple chances over and over?

 

[Shakes]

Also, Niermann was not caught. He self admitted. That's why he is better than Gianetti. Great? No. Better? Definitely. People with such comments around Niermann and Gianetti are the biggest supporters of Omerta.

 

[BullsFan22]

Classic clinic thread.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Let's reformulate Jeukendrups formula. If we assume a vo2max of 90. What should efficiency be for a WKG of 6.7? Then it has to be 35 percent... Vice versa, what does vo2max need to be when efficiency is the standard assumed 22 percent? 145.8. Both beyond the realms of possibility. This is with an assumed weight of 66kg. Also at an efficiency of 85 percent of vo2max effort.

It's not clear to me why you need whooping 145.8 VO2max to achieve FTP of 6.7 w/kg? (while 90 is enough for 6.2 w/kg). It's not even close to being a linear relation. According to my calculations about 98-99 of VO2max is enough.

EPO, or anything oxygen related, has two consequences:
VO2Max increases
% of vo2max they can ride at increases

Not true. EPO increases VO2Max but not sustainable percentage of it. Actually it's the other way around: time to exhaustion at a given % of VO2max can decrease after EPO consumption: the rest of your power curve (for lower intensities/longer efforts) doesn't scale up so nicely. To eliminate this effect (improve power curve) one has to train/race regularly at boosted VO2max level.

 

[pelotonIQ]

There's no need to compare. This is not about who's the bigger doper. Besides that you know well that Niermann and Hessman cases do not compare in the slightest to Gianetti and Matxin.

But in case you wonder, yes I wish people like Niermann (and many more) would be out. Somehow we do not tolerate Lance because he's apparently the worst and if you're not Lance we allow you to stay in this sport... Where's the cut off? What Lance did was wrong but what Gianetti did was OK to give him multiple chances over and over?

It's not about who is worse. My point was that team staff within professional cycling is filled with personnel that have doped and I brought UAE main rival Visma as a example. Another example is EF education general manager Vaugthers is also an admitted doper.