Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

They're still going high enough that you gotta boost. But I'd bet it's gonna be a combination of consistent CO snorting (as much as you can get away with on bio passport) and then a heap of peptides with mainly intracellular effects for substrate use, carb absorption and all that good stuff.

Sure, it's likely a combination of factors to achieve such an effect.

 

[pelotonIQ]

That Remco has been one of the best time trialists since he was a junior, and for the past 3-4 seasons just the best. It also says that Remco has bad days multiple times throughout the season, compared to others who never have a bad day. Not to mention Evenepoel is just perfection on an ITT bike, there's no one more aerodynamic.

I was not implying Remco is doping, I was just using Pogacar detractors logic to show how absurd it is.

 

[Red Rick]

Yesterday the theme in here was that he is motor-doping and today the theme is that he is doping more than Lance , except he didn't even win todays stage, Remco did. What does this say about Remco, is he also a doper?

Well, yes hi welcome to the Clinic.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

After the legal proceedings Manuele Mori and Giuseppe Saronni got acquited and cleared from any wrongdoing. Marcato never tested postive. Hauptman never tested positive. Over at Visma whom are UAE main rivals, we have Grischa Niermann, who admitted to doping EPO for 3 straight years. We have a recent case from Visma with Michel Hessman, tested positive for a doping masking agent. This only begs the question, who else is doping over at Visma. Good luck.

Hauptmann and Mori got caught for 50%+ hematocrit, maybe read a bit more before claiming that they are white as snow? As for the implication of Saronni and Mori (which was a Ferrari client btw) in the Mantova affair and subsequent "clearing", this is laughable. Who is doping at Visma? Probably everybody that is close to victory, but this is the Pogacar thread (granted, we know that you might have some reading issues, see above).
This is so reminiscent of the Armstrong days, "he's never tested positive, and even if he did the others are dopers too anyway!!!"

 

[how yes no?]

I thought it's known how the users on this forum operate:

-your hero wins the days race -> you go into main forum to brag about it
(and nobody is doping, or even dopers were defeated cleanly)

-your hero does not win the race -> you go into clinic forum to *** on the winner
(and the winner is the definition of doping, to put him down enough, we are sometimes ready to accept that maybe everyone is doping (depending on capacity for reflection the author has), but of course winner does it far far more than the competition)

I've observed this behaviour from fans of basically all riders in this forum in the last 15 years.

It just so happens, that Pogačar is winning the most these times and I see this thread as another confirmation of the rules above.

I'd even go as far as to speculate, that doping talk is one of the classic "excuses" (not without any basis in reality) for once prevalent nations that have been dethroned.
Problem is when excuses are not used as a thing to soften the acute pain of initial hit, but we take it upon ourselves to chronically victimize ourselves and then stay caught in this cage of negativity when you're thinking about others more than yourself.
So if any nation without deep well-known history of cycling is suddenly near the top, there can be only 1 explanation.
This also describes the way people argue here... they start with conclusions and then they find data that could support it (sometimes with a bit of magic powder), instead of the other way around.

 

[Red Rick]

I thought it's known how the users on this forum operate:

-your hero wins the days race -> you go into main forum to brag about it
(and nobody is doping, or even dopers were defeated cleanly)

-your hero does not win the race -> you go into clinic forum to *** on the winner
(and the winner is the definition of doping, to put him down enough, we are sometimes ready to accept that maybe everyone is doping (depending on capacity for reflection the author has), but of course winner does it far far more than the competition)

I've observed this behaviour from fans of basically all riders in this forum in the last 15 years.

It just so happens, that Pogačar is winning the most these times and I see this thread as another confirmation of the rules above.

I'd even go as far as to speculate, that doping talk is one of the classic "excuses" (not without any basis in reality) for once prevalent nations that have been dethroned.
Problem is when excuses are not used as a thing to soften the acute pain of initial hit, but we take it upon ourselves to chronically victimize ourselves and then stay caught in this cage of negativity when you're thinking about others more than yourself.
So if any nation without deep well-known history of cycling is suddenly near the top, there can be only 1 explanation.
This also describes the way people argue here... they start with conclusions and then they find data that could support it (sometimes with a bit of magic powder), instead of the other way around.

It's almost like it's cycling and there is always shady *** going on, and we are currently in an era so shady that Sauron would tell you it's a bit dark out there.

There are plenty of fans that would admit their own favorite riders are on the sauce, especially in here, and yet they still find it worth discussing how much doping affects the biggest outliers in the sport.

Saying "oh fans are just salty" is just intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Hauptmann and Mori got caught for 50%+ hematocrit, maybe read a bit more before claiming that they are white as snow? As for the implication of Saronni and Mori (which was a Ferrari client btw) in the Mantova affair and subsequent "clearing", this is laughable. Who is doping at Visma? Probably everybody that is close to victory, but this is the Pogacar thread (granted, we know that you might have some reading issues, see above).
This is so reminiscent of the Armstrong days, "he's never tested positive, and even if he did the others are dopers too anyway!!!"

Mori never tested positive and it was only Hauptman that recorded a hematocrit level over 50% which triggered a UCI mandatory health suspension for 15 days. The suspension was medical and no evidence of doping or positive test surfaced.

As for Visma? You have Niermann, admitted doper, 3 years of continous doping from 2000-2003.

 

[Notarobot]

But seriously guys, most of us were there in the Armstrong days and we knew something was off. This is 10 times worse and the whole world is just ignoring it. "We are witnessing history in the making, the best ever, greatness" etc. We just know what will happen in 10 or 15 years, Pogacar crying tears being interviewed by Oprahcar, he is so sorry, stripped of his 12 yellow jerseys.

 

[how yes no?]

@RedRick

I see space for discussion on doping and it's abuse, but to deny most of the posts here are just salty fans that add nothing to discussion except "this is over the moon, sky/giannetti/visma is such a big fraud" is also intellectual dishonesty.

I guess current state is so shady, that light did not yet shine on any direct evidence or trait we could follow for more factual content in the debates, because other than the fact, that it's hard to explain some results with past/current knowledge unless something shady is going on, nobody has any direct evidence as to what exactly is going on. Which means, that yes, if we want "figure it out", we have to discuss it, but this does not deny that most of current discussions are salty fans that add nothing to discussion.
Also sometimes discussions go in a way that makes it impossible for debate based on arguments, because people believe in conclusions not based on any direct evidence or argument, so it's hard to counter with arguments, as there is nothing to prove false.
If the logic is "they are doping -> they have never tasted positive -> uci does not want them to be caught -> because sport would lose fanbase and sponsors"
Then the debate is not about are they doping, but about what fans really want to watch... same people who accuse UCI of allowing doping for the sake of fans are actually the fans who think doping is doing harm to the sport and destroys their enjoyment of watching.
So on the one hand doping ruins the experience for them, but they are sure that it's what enables the experience "for the masses", or at least that's what they accuse UCI of thinking.
This can be a debate, but it's not really about doping.

It's the problem with modalities of knowledge that Donald Rumsfeld famously explained with regards to Iraq wepons of mass destruction:
"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because, as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know."

It's hard to have debates about unknown unknowns, and that's mostly where current knowledge about current abuse of doping is.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Mori never tested positive and it was only Hauptman that recorded a hematocrit level over 50% which triggered a UCI mandatory health suspension for 15 days. The suspension was medical and no evidence of doping or positive test surfaced.

As for Visma? You have Niermann, admitted doper, 3 years of continous doping from 2000-2003.

Mori was banned from racing as an U23 for 45 days following an over 50% hematocrit value.

"The suspension was medical and no evidence of doping or positive test surfaced."

Can you really say that with a straight face?

As for Visma, take it to the Visma thread, i have absolutely no doubts they are up to no good.

 

[Psycat]

I expected something like 30-40 secs on a flattish course......

However, call me naive, but I honestly think he's just a physiological freak - and not anything else. If I'm wrong, then I'll hold my hands up......

What if it's gene doping? In the upcoming decades cyclists(and everything else of course) will be decided by who got the money (and dubious morals) to biologically engineer their offspring, who's to say it doesn't already happen atleast on a moderate scale?

 

[pelotonIQ]

Mori was banned from racing as an U23 for 45 days following an over 50% hematocrit value.

I do not see any credible information about this, I would like a source.

"The suspension was medical and no evidence of doping or positive test surfaced."

Can you really say that with a straight face?

Those are the facts of the matter.

As for Visma, take it to the Visma thread, i have absolutely no doubts they are up to no good.

Well. You're the one that asked me who in Visma is a doper in this Pogacar clinic thread.

 

[YellowSocks]

I thought it's known how the users on this forum operate:

-your hero wins the days race -> you go into main forum to brag about it
(and nobody is doping, or even dopers were defeated cleanly)

-your hero does not win the race -> you go into clinic forum to *** on the winner
(and the winner is the definition of doping, to put him down enough, we are sometimes ready to accept that maybe everyone is doping (depending on capacity for reflection the author has), but of course winner does it far far more than the competition)

I've observed this behaviour from fans of basically all riders in this forum in the last 15 years.

It just so happens, that Pogačar is winning the most these times and I see this thread as another confirmation of the rules above.

I'd even go as far as to speculate, that doping talk is one of the classic "excuses" (not without any basis in reality) for once prevalent nations that have been dethroned.
Problem is when excuses are not used as a thing to soften the acute pain of initial hit, but we take it upon ourselves to chronically victimize ourselves and then stay caught in this cage of negativity when you're thinking about others more than yourself.
So if any nation without deep well-known history of cycling is suddenly near the top, there can be only 1 explanation.
This also describes the way people argue here... they start with conclusions and then they find data that could support it (sometimes with a bit of magic powder), instead of the other way around.

I am sure I am not the only one cheering for riders whatever their nationality.

I'll be happy to challenge myself when Paul Seixas will be a little older and on the same program as Pogacar

 

[Red Rick]

@RedRick

I see space for discussion on doping and it's abuse, but to deny most of the posts here are just salty fans that add nothing to discussion except "this is over the moon, sky/giannetti/visma is such a big fraud" is also intellectual dishonesty.

While I readily admit I have an amazing capacity to be a saltmine, there's little that's dishonest about pointing out how much of an outlier Pogacar is, questioning the origins of Vingegaard or his ridiculous "I don't take anything I wouldn't give to my daughter" quotes, Gianetti's history of doping dating so far back we're basically carbon dating or Sky's propensity for bogus explanations marginal gains and dodgy TUEs.

And just because peope can be salty, it doesn't mean they're wrong. Taking notes of yet another outlier performance isn't intellectually dishonest. And the whole evidence/UCI etc question is resolved quite easily if you make the following assumptions

- There is no incentive to catch doping, in fact there is every incentive not to.
- The economics of anti doping make absolutely no sense
- Doping is just ragebait, and "clean" sport is just marketing gibberish
- Most people don't care about doping, they care about testing negative and they just want to believe. Many people will latch onto any explanation, despite the strongest associations with managers, directors and doctors who have long histories of unrepentant doping. Deep down, they want to boil it down to "cyclists are clean today because they're good guys", which to me is basically religious thinking with the bonus that it's empirically wrong. Give a fan enough fallacies to choose from and they'll choose a few. There's a reason the word "fan" is derived from "fanatic" i.e. "a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause." according to the nearest online thesaurus.

As to why I care? I do and I don't. I would prefer if I could actually believe not in a clean sport, but in a sport where the doping is pretty similar between many riders and not the giant differentiator it clearly is today. And I care because of the enormous hypocrisy of cycling fans, media and pundits who would rather piss any reasonable man in the face than ask any critcial question.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

I thought it's known how the users on this forum operate:

-your hero wins the days race -> you go into main forum to brag about it
(and nobody is doping, or even dopers were defeated cleanly)

-your hero does not win the race -> you go into clinic forum to *** on the winner
(and the winner is the definition of doping, to put him down enough, we are sometimes ready to accept that maybe everyone is doping (depending on capacity for reflection the author has), but of course winner does it far far more than the competition)

I've observed this behaviour from fans of basically all riders in this forum in the last 15 years.

It just so happens, that Pogačar is winning the most these times and I see this thread as another confirmation of the rules above.

I'd even go as far as to speculate, that doping talk is one of the classic "excuses" (not without any basis in reality) for once prevalent nations that have been dethroned.
Problem is when excuses are not used as a thing to soften the acute pain of initial hit, but we take it upon ourselves to chronically victimize ourselves and then stay caught in this cage of negativity when you're thinking about others more than yourself.
So if any nation without deep well-known history of cycling is suddenly near the top, there can be only 1 explanation.
This also describes the way people argue here... they start with conclusions and then they find data that could support it (sometimes with a bit of magic powder), instead of the other way around.

We do know a few things though, mainly, but this is certaintly not exhaustive:
-Climbing times are of the charts, with a marked post covid lockdown boost and another big leap in 2024. Also crazy averages and insane solo are routine nowadays. We know that those past records were set by riders who were doping heavily.

- The staff at UAE (and any top team really, but UAE really stands out) is chock full of shady characters (at best, the gianetti/matxin duo is closer to something out of a Scorsese movie).

-There are lots and lots of suspicious team performance since 2020 (Anyone remembers Peyragudes 2022? The fact that it has faded into obscurity is a testament to how much ridiculous stuff has happened since).

-Among all those incredible performance/improvements, Pogacar stands out like a sore thumb.

-"Old" doping methods are still effective and you can pass the tests if you're don't go overboard (Testosterone/HGH are still usable, blood doping is probably easier now than before since the biopassport was gutted by the Kreuziger case, AICAR is the same as testosterone as far as testing goes, there are plenty of SARM on the market, the list goes on).

-"New" doping methods (Synthetic hemoglobin, but that's the tip of the iceberg) have emerged.

-The UCI is not a governing body that can be trusted, neither is ASO (History has taught us that conspiracy theories are the norm rather than the exception when it comes to professional cycling.)

-The counter narrative is "bike improvements" (which we know is overhyped, at least very much so for climbing), "nutrition and training" (which might have some merit but is blown out of proportion, you'd think that past riders were exclusively training in Z3 and stuffing themselves with butter if those claims were to be taken seriousely) and "never tested positive!!!" (When did we hear this one, i wonder)

Now you can draw the conclusions you want from all of this, i know where i stand myself (Which i think is abundantly clear with my posting history)

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

I do not see any credible information about this, I would like a source.

I'll get back to you with that, unless you read French?

Those are the facts of the matter.

My ribs you're killing me here.The facts of the matter is they triggered and arbitrary limit designed to prevent the unlimited use of EPO at the time (since there was no testa vailable to speak of at the time). The fact that they triggered in the first place can only mean one thing. This is not a court of law. (And thank god for that actually)

As for Visma, take it to the Visma thread, i have absolutely no doubts they are up to no good.

Seems you got me confused with someone else, or you are putting words into my mouth. Either way i'm hardly surprised.

 

[pelotonIQ]

I'll get back to you with that, unless you read French?

I'll translate.

Seems you got me confused with someone else, or you are putting words into my mouth. Either way i'm hardly surprised.

You wrote it here, read your post.

Hauptmann and Mori got caught for 50%+ hematocrit, maybe read a bit more before claiming that they are white as snow? As for the implication of Saronni and Mori (which was a Ferrari client btw) in the Mantova affair and subsequent "clearing", this is laughable. Who is doping at Visma? Probably everybody that is close to victory, but this is the Pogacar thread (granted, we know that you might have some reading issues, see above).
This is so reminiscent of the Armstrong days, "he's never tested positive, and even if he did the others are dopers too anyway!!!"

 

[ashhutch1997]

In terms of TdF, Pogacar had a bad day in TdF 2024 stage 11 in which he got caught and lost a stage to Vingegaard. You can still have a bad day without losing minutes.

You don't solo attack 30k out if you are on a bad day come on.

 

[pelotonIQ]

You don't solo attack 30k out if you are on a bad day come on.

Are you implying that a bad day is something that is determined before the race/stage starts?

 

[ashhutch1997]

Are you implying that a bad day is something that is determined before the race/stage starts?

Nope, but realise during the stage. If he was having such a bad say he could have sat in and been conservative if it was such a terrible day.
I admire your consistent defense of Pogacar.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

I'll translate.

You wrote it here, read your post.

Team history of Telekom Slovenije
Read your own, that would save us some time. Upthread you brought the question yourself "who is doping at visma?", not me and my answer was a rhetorical question followed by "probably everybody worth mentioning". So you're either very confused or you're attempting to paint thing in a dishonest way.

 

[Pantani Attacks]

But seriously guys, most of us were there in the Armstrong days and we knew something was off. This is 10 times worse and the whole world is just ignoring it. "We are witnessing history in the making, the best ever, greatness" etc. We just know what will happen in 10 or 15 years, Pogacar crying tears being interviewed by Oprahcar, he is so sorry, stripped of his 12 yellow jerseys.

Cycling won't make that mistake again. Pog, Remco, Jonas, MVdP et al have brought never seen before worldwide attention, money to the sport again, after being rock bottom after Lance. Lance was a household name but him only. Things like the Netflix show and the increased TV coverage and media coverage is giving lesser names publicity, fame and money that superstars of previous eras could only dream of.

They're all too big to fall and there is too much at stake to go prodding. I'd imagine there is someone tapping them on the shoulder to keep it under reins a little but the show must go on. A few no hopers might get popped just to keep up the facade.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Team history of Telekom Slovenije
Read your own, that would save us some time. Upthread you brought the question yourself "who is doping at visma?", not me and my answer was a rhetorical question followed by "probably everybody worth mentioning". So you're either very confused or you're attempting to paint thing in a dishonest way.

I saw this website when I looked on my own and I tried looking for more that corroborates to no avail. There is not much to read. You said something about 45 day suspension and that it was a U23 race? Where can I read about that?

Nonetheless, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt since the matter was about 50% hematocrit. As far as I know this was when he was a non-pro and in 2002, 50% hematocrit was not considered a positive doping test, the ''punishment'' is a medical suspension for a couple of weeks.

Am I not allowed to add to the rhetorical Visma question? I found it funny that you closed the lid on it and refered me to the Visma thread as soon as I mentioned Niermann.

 

[Shakes]

It's not clear to me why you need whooping 145.8 VO2max to achieve FTP of 6.7 w/kg? (while 90 is enough for 6.2 w/kg). It's not even close to being a linear relation. According to my calculations about 98-99 of VO2max is enough.



Not true. EPO increases VO2Max but not sustainable percentage of it. Actually it's the other way around: time to exhaustion at a given % of VO2max can decrease after EPO consumption: the rest of your power curve (for lower intensities/longer efforts) doesn't scale up so nicely. To eliminate this effect (improve power curve) one has to train/race regularly at boosted VO2max level.

Your calculations are better. Apologies !

I outsourced the calculation (as I was lazily on my phone) and while it depends on fractional utilization assumption, efficiency etc. With an efficiency of 22 percent and fractional utilization of 85 I get a vo2max of 103. With fractional utilization of 90 I get 97. Both based on 22 efficiency.

It's on the limit, if not above. Theoretically possible still though. Although I doubt by as many as have done that already in recent years. Pogacar and vingegaard have performed well above 6.7 already as well though. Despite my very incorrect calculations it is beyond the border of possible. Especially given that 15 years ago 6.3 WKG was seen as natural clean limit and we are now close to 7 (Think Pogacar at Plateau de Beille). Think that equals a vo2max above 100. Which has never been recorded. Although different efficiency and utilization can change that but each of those need to be outliers as well.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Your calculations are better. Apologies !

I outsourced the calculation (as I was lazily on my phone) and while it depends on fractional utilization assumption, efficiency etc. With an efficiency of 22 percent and fractional utilization of 85 I get a vo2max of 103. With fractional utilization of 90 I get 97. Both based on 22 efficiency.

It's on the limit, if not above. Theoretically possible still though. Although I doubt by as many as have done that already in recent years. Pogacar and vingegaard have performed well above 6.7 already as well though. Despite my very incorrect calculations it is beyond the border of possible. Especially given that 15 years ago 6.3 WKG was seen as natural clean limit and we are now close to 7 (Think Pogacar at Plateau de Beille). Think that equals a vo2max above 100. Which has never been recorded. Although different efficiency and utilization can change that but each of those need to be outliers as well.

TBH we don't know what's possible. I actually think that Pogacar in peak form can have VO2max of 100 (or more). Obviously I'm not saying it's not boosted by doping!