Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[burning]

By my count, he just had a cheeky 2000 VAM over the last 7kms, which is somewhat good

 

[Red Rick]

Honestly, for me it's not even about his rivals. The most glaring comparison is between 2024-2025 Pogačar and pre-2024 Pogačar. He wasn't a latecomer, or a kid, or recovering from a serious injury, or anything that might suggest there was still ample room for improvement. This was a world-class, already mature rider who had performed at an insanely high but mostly stable level for years but who would go on to suddenly improve a further 5-10% (which sounds small but is actually massive). The very idea is preposterous

Imagine Usain Bolt getting 0.3s faster on the 100m suddenly in 2012.

 

[Raest]

Vingegaard said that this was his better ever performance, if he did beat the Combloux wattage and still lost 36 secs, it will be ... Well words fail me at this point..

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

That was some alien s**t right there.

 

[DONCA]

I don't think he has something that others don't have access to, UAE and Gianetti seem to really optimized the setup. Similarly, it took a few years of EPO to boost performance back in 90s

They do. UAE (Chimera Investments LLC) bought colnago.
They are the only team that has control over the bikes and can develop what they want.

Add to that the fact that UAE is one of the main "sponsors" and organisers for some UCI races and you can imagine a lot of things.

One hand washes the other.

 

[burning]

Vingegaard said that this was his better ever performance, if he did beat the Combloux wattage and still lost 36 secs, it will be ... Well words fail me at this point..

I don't buy that tbh, he is performing worse than 2024, where Pogacar seems to be on the same level. This stage (and the Tour) is basically the Combloux stage except swapping Vingegaard and Pogacar.

The most interesting thing is, why is Vingegaard looking somewhat worse than his 2024 performance, not sure whether Visma botched something during this year's prep

 

[Pantani Attacks]

Maybe just maybe he has the best drugs and also the best ability/talent. He has never been a no hoper like Froome, never was solely a classics rider like Geraint Thomas, and never was a journeyman cyclist like Vingegaard. Pogacar is just simply an incredible athlete who is availing of whatever there is to push himself to the limit.

 

[E_F_]

I suspect the Lanterne Rouge watts boys will say that we just saw the two greatest climbing performances in the history of the sport.

 

[Raest]

I don't buy that tbh, he is performing worse than 2024, where Pogacar seems to be on the same level. This stage (and the Tour) is basically the Combloux stage except swapping Vingegaard and Pogacar.

The most interesting thing is, why is Vingegaard looking somewhat worse than his 2024 performance, not sure whether Visma botched something during this year's prep

I agree, I 'll wait for the estimated wattage again but it's definitely in the low/mid 7s per kg, from memory Vingegaard had something like 7.2 w/kg for the ascent to Combloux back in 23.
It does seem like Visma have lost a step compared to 23, last year they had the crashes so it wasn't obvious, but this year all of the team are underperforming, the climbing domestiques in particular (Kuss has been a non-factor since he won the Vuelta).

 

[dr.eve]

Yes. And primarily that enables you to train harder which is where the gains are made. Which is why the worst proven dopers over the years (Communist Europe, Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong) have been absent from competition testing for long periods - then appearing for the biggest events and blowing the others away.

I don't doubt he's doing something (all top sports stars are) - but that he performs well throughout the year is IMO not an indicator.

It is... It goes against any logic in cycling. All others are training and racing to a certain peak/super compensation. This is followed by a period of reduced racing fitness... Yet only Pogacar can withstand that. You call that an indicator of no doping while in fact it goes against normal physiology.
I agree with you of course that doping can benefit many in training, am not denying that. Just not going along with you that being on high level year round is a sign of cleanness.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Vingegaard said that this was his better ever performance, if he did beat the Combloux wattage and still lost 36 secs, it will be ... Well words fail me at this point..

Nope, maybe best 15-20min climb effort, but how often do we see these in Mtts?

 

[dr.eve]

Yes. And primarily that enables you to train harder which is where the gains are made. Which is why the worst proven dopers over the years (Communist Europe, Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong) have been absent from competition testing for long periods - then appearing for the biggest events and blowing the others away.

I don't doubt he's doing something (all top sports stars are) - but that he performs well throughout the year is IMO not an indicator.

And yes in Athletics I also agree with your examples of some US athletes.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

I don't buy that tbh, he is performing worse than 2024, where Pogacar seems to be on the same level. This stage (and the Tour) is basically the Combloux stage except swapping Vingegaard and Pogacar.

The most interesting thing is, why is Vingegaard looking somewhat worse than his 2024 performance, not sure whether Visma botched something during this year's prep

Vingegaard isn't worse than in 2024. He finished twice three times and third two times. Only the first time trial was below par.

 

[peterfin]

I wonder how good he would do if he actually was totally exhausted at the end? Today it was almost as if he tried to look a bit tired after the finish.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

I wonder how good he would do if he actually was totally exhausted at the end? Today it was almost as if he tried to look a bit tired after the finish.

That's going to be his major challenge. Look tired at the end and win fewer than 10 stages.

 

[Abedfo]

I suspect the Lanterne Rouge watts boys will say that we just saw the two greatest climbing performances in the history of the sport.

They're not worth listening to as they are just fanboys

 

[Pantani Attacks]

They're not worth listening to as they are just fanboys

Well worth listening when Vingegaard and Visma get stomped, Specs can hardly hide his anger.

 

[E_F_]

They're not worth listening to as they are just fanboys

The watts boys? Really?

I'm not talking about Patrick and Benji, here.

 

[E_F_]

Nah, Benji in particular definitely isn't plus they used to work for Visma. They may still do.

How is that a response to the subject? I'm talking about an article such as this: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/07/1...ateau-de-beille-tour-de-france-2024-stage-15/

By Gabriel Stróżyk and Kārlis Ozols.

 

[Raest]

How is that a response to the subject? I'm talking about an article such as this: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/07/1...ateau-de-beille-tour-de-france-2024-stage-15/

By Gabriel Stróżyk and Kārlis Ozols.

didn't realise that though you were referring to the podcast

 

[E_F_]

didn't realise that though you were referring to the podcast

They are employed by Patrick Broe for their contributions to the Lanterne Rouge website. I wasn't reffering to the Lanterne Rouge Cycling Podcast. I was referring to the Lanterne Rouge "watts boys".

 

[AlfTupper]

Yes. And primarily that enables you to train harder which is where the gains are made. Which is why the worst proven dopers over the years (Communist Europe, Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong) have been absent from competition testing for long periods - then appearing for the biggest events and blowing the others away.

I don't doubt he's doing something (all top sports stars are) - but that he performs well throughout the year is IMO not an indicator.

Top fitness levels generally run in cycles and rhythms. Highs or peaks, followed by lows. I first noticed high levels of performance throughout the year with Said Aouita in the 1980's. He was an exceptional talent who later admitted to doping. It was shocking to see him running at world record level from April through to October. Pogacar is also doing this and it doesn't align with basic human physiology.

 

[fenns]

Top fitness levels generally run in cycles and rhythms. Highs or peaks, followed by lows. I first noticed high levels of performance throughout the year with Said Aouita in the 1980's. He was an exceptional talent who later admitted to doping. It was shocking to see him running at world record level from April through to October. Pogacar is also doing this and it doesn't align with basic human physiology.

Aouita never admitted to doping

 

[cnort]

I’m just hoping for good breakaways at this point.

In fairness, MVDP and Ben Healy have been entertaining. And they tend to be a bit subdued the day after an extravaganza. You can sort of see which days will be GC shakeups (i.e., Pogacar circus act) and skip them, just watching the rest.

 

[solo80k]

the way Gianetti said "bravo Jonas" when Vingo rode by...

I think Jonas is the only rival that UAE cares about and Gianetti respects him more than 99% of the peleton.