Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[repoman]

 

[repoman]

The UCI cannot allow an Armstrong like reveal, with Pog. It WOULD destroy the sport.

I know I get accused of wearing a tinfoil hat, but I genuinely believe that the reason Visma took a real nose dive, is becasue the UCI caught them with motors, and said they'd bring them down if they didn't stop. (Remember there was a rumor that a major sponsor left because the team was caught with motors...goodbye Jumbo) It may be that Wout doesn't look as much like Wout because he doesn't have magnets in his wheels anymore, and I'm a Wout fan. I am convinced that in 2016, he was racing with a motor in CX. The videos are just too odd to ignore, and then look at Kuss in 2023...

Whatever Pog is doing, the UCI cannot stop him.

IMO Sportswashing teams are probably funneling cash to the UCI.
Motors are like flat earth level tin foil to me but whatever.

 

[anti -e-bike]

'all in vein'

maybe trying to distract from the motor bike

hollow laughter

 

[Lorzenz08]

That's what Pogacar looked like winning the Tour de l'Avenir, the most important stage race in the World for juniors/semi-pro.

And then you want to tell me it is unbelievable this guy developed so much ?

He looked like a 10yo kid riding his bike to elementary school, so of course once he developed he was going to become a legend.

 

[Rotted Melon]

Politt pointing to his veins lmaoooooo

Might be the defining moment of this tour...

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

IMO Sportswashing teams are probably funneling cash to the UCI.
Motors are like flat earth level tin foil to me but whatever.

Ghost in the Machine

Waargebeurde misdaad podcast · “I truly believe that motors were used to win bike races” - Greg LeMond, three-time winner of the Tour de France. In January 2016, 19-year-old Belgian cyclist Femke van den Driessche was caught with a...

podcasts.apple.com

It's an abject fact that extremely sophistocated motors and magnet drive systems were developed, and they are/were extremely expensive. You can think that Fred Groupride purchased them to beat the local Strava segments, but I don't.

Plus, flat earth is anti-science, and cycling propulsion systems are not the same thing at all.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

It's even stranger to me that there is a segment who believes that cyclists have no qualms about sticking needles in their arms to gain an advantage, or alter their genes, but wouldn't use an undetectable motor?

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

That's what Pogacar looked like winning the Tour de l'Avenir, the most important stage race in the World for juniors/semi-pro.

And then you want to tell me it is unbelievable this guy developed so much ?

He looked like a 10yo kid riding his bike to elementary school, so of course once he developed he was going to become a legend.

Right... the stage race that he won after he signed with UAE, in which he didn't win a single stage and which was also won by other unbeatable monsters like Jan Bakelants and Romain Siccard.
Yeah, that explains his rise.

That's the same guy who couldn't beat legendary Slovenian rider Isidor Penko in the European ITT that same year where he finished... 16th.

Generational talent

 

[nightowl]

Right... the stage race that he won after he signed with UAE, in which he didn't win a single stage and which was also won by other unbeatable monsters like Jan Bakelants and Romain Siccard.
Yeah, that explains his rise.

That's the same guy who couldn't beat legendary Slovenian rider Isidor Penko in the European ITT that same year where he finished... 16th.

Generational talent

I don’t think this is a very strong argument tbh. People develop physically at different speeds, so it’s very unlikely results will transfer from juniors to u23 to pro races in a linear fashion.

In fact, its quite common across sports in general to see dominant juniors struggle into their 20s as their peers catch up in physical development.

Which isn’t to say Pogacar isn’t doping, because of course he is. But there are far stronger arguments to make - not least that he climbs at speeds only ever achieved by notorious dopers, and which no clean rider (or at least no rider we can ascertain with any kind of confidence is clean) has ever come close to.

 

[burning]

Right... the stage race that he won after he signed with UAE, in which he didn't win a single stage and which was also won by other unbeatable monsters like Jan Bakelants and Romain Siccard.
Yeah, that explains his rise.

That's the same guy who couldn't beat legendary Slovenian rider Isidor Penko in the European ITT that same year where he finished... 16th.

Generational talent

I can cherry pick results as well. He was on the same select group with Mohoric, Majka and few other WT riders before that ITT.

As nightowl mentioned, different riders progress differently and its not like had zero notable results before joining a WR team unlike many past dopers.

Again, it's very obvious that he is super changed, and he can be also a big talent like many proven dopers before

 

[Stablo]

I don’t think this is a very strong argument tbh. People develop physically at different speeds, so it’s very unlikely results will transfer from juniors to u23 to pro races in a linear fashion.

In fact, its quite common across sports in general to see dominant juniors struggle into their 20s as their peers catch up in physical development.

I think this isn't a very strong argument either. It is true that people develop in different speed and there are always late bloomers that will have a great career even they weren't the "best" in juniors. On the other hand generational talents, legends and the absolute best of sports are basically always known from a very young age. They are also dominating and standing really out already in the juniors. Phelps, Bolt, Messi, Ronaldo, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Merckx's, Lemond, Gretzky, McDavid, Doncic, Jordan, LeBron just to name a few.

Again pog definetely is talented, but nothing before UAE&Gianetti indicated, that he was a legend/world beater level of talent.

 

[dr.eve]

The UCI cannot allow an Armstrong like reveal, with Pog. It WOULD destroy the sport.

I know I get accused of wearing a tinfoil hat, but I genuinely believe that the reason Visma took a real nose dive, is becasue the UCI caught them with motors, and said they'd bring them down if they didn't stop. (Remember there was a rumor that a major sponsor left because the team was caught with motors...goodbye Jumbo) It may be that Wout doesn't look as much like Wout because he doesn't have magnets in his wheels anymore, and I'm a Wout fan. I am convinced that in 2016, he was racing with a motor in CX. The videos are just too odd to ignore, and then look at Kuss in 2023...

Whatever Pog is doing, the UCI cannot stop him. It would kill the Pro Tour.

Jumbo left for own reasons, change in management, change in strategy and their previous head is charged for financial fraud or something.

To me the motor theories are simply not feasible.

 

[SorelyBoy]

It's even stranger to me that there is a segment who believes that cyclists have no qualms about sticking needles in their arms to gain an advantage, or alter their genes, but wouldn't use an undetectable motor?

Yep. Cyclists and their team managers who’ve had their teams busted before, and who went to extraordinary life threatening lengths themselves during their own career as a rider to gain an advantage over their rivals. The idea that biological doping is somehow acceptable but that such people wouldn’t use mechanical doping because they have at least some sense of decency is laughable. In fact such thinking shows how far we’ve fallen when cycling fans accept this argument because it means they view biological doping as at least semi-acceptable, and that all is good because the guy who is light years ahead of everyone else is just a better responder or has a better programme. They are cheaters cheating clean riders of their glory and livelihood. And cheaters and their fans tell themselves that cheating is acceptable because everyone else is at it as well. That was how Armstrong ultimately defended himself. And if cheaters can find another way to cheat and win with minimal risk of being caught then they will do it,

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

I can cherry pick results as well. He was on the same select group with Mohoric, Majka and few other WT riders before that ITT.

As nightowl mentioned, different riders progress differently and its not like had zero notable results before joining a WR team unlike many past dopers.

Again, it's very obvious that he is super changed, and he can be also a big talent like many proven dopers before

I only cherry pick results because people continue to claim that this guy is so exceptionally talented. Sorry, no. There are exceptions, but most top riders show their exceptional talent at a very young age and at least in the specific discipline they excel in. Pogacars ridiculous time trial on La Plance de Belles Filles in 202 remains a prime example. Where was his pre-UAE ITT talent? I can't find it. In nearly all other riders, it showed at a very young age: Evenepoel, Ganna, McNulty, Tarling, Armirail, Plapp...

 

[SorelyBoy]

this thread is becoming a science fiction novel mixed with some very good humor; no Seinfeld no problem, we got the clinic for you

The only science fiction going on are from those who argue Pogacar is some some sort of mutant super human with superior genetics. Like a cycling Wolverine, he’s got a metal exoskeleton and can push out ludicrously high watts for hours on end with no apparent fatigue.

 

[kingjr]

I only cherry pick results because people continue to claim that this guy is so exceptionally talented. Sorry, no. There are exceptions, but most top riders show their exceptional talent at a very young age and at least in the specific discipline they excel in. Pogacars ridiculous time trial on La Plance de Belles Filles in 202 remains a prime example. Where was his pre-UAE ITT talent? I can't find it. In nearly all other riders, it showed at a very young age: Evenepoel, Ganna, McNulty, Tarling, Armirail, Plapp...

He still beat guys like Bissegger, Asgreen, Jorgenson, Hoole, Vingegaard, and Bjerg, I suppose they should never have achieved anything in that discipline either. It's almost as if teenage TT results are not very useful, and determined to no small extent by stage of physical development. (Reminder that Marcel Kittel is a 2x Junior World Champion, 1x U23 European Champion and 1x U23 World Championship bronze medalist in that discipline).

 

[peterfin]

Jumbo left for own reasons, change in management, change in strategy and their previous head is charged for financial fraud or something.

To me the motor theories are simply not feasible.

To me it is. It helps to be an expert in drone technology to see what is feasible today. The UCI apparantly understands it too (or better: knows that it happens). I am not 100% convinced that Pogacar uses it but I am not ruling it out either.

 

[Stablo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1946662533017862491

View: https://x.com/festinaboy/status/1946662533017862491?s=19

I see there were more pictures on the roadside yeasterday, more and more are getting annoyed on the current state of affairs. In (some) Giro I was laughing when someone ran next to the riders with a chainsaw without the blade, to make loud motor sounds😂

 

[Stablo]

what you mean Gianetti, in other thread they proved Rozman is the missing link

I don’t know about Rozman other than the Sky/Ineos links and that his also maybe worked with Slovenians. Gianetti&Co are running the show in team UAE and this is their thread.

 

[Abedfo]

There was no content on Lance (unless you really dug around) until the whistleblowers destroyed him. Doesnt mean a large scale organised doping ring designed to commit industrial scale sporting fraud wasn't happening.

 

[Raest]

I don’t think anyone is insinuating that Pogacar is cheating. They say it flat out.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I don’t think anyone is insinuating that Pogacar is cheating. They say it flat out.

His performances say it flat out. It’s happening in plain sight and anyone with an ounce of knowledge of cycling history and sports performance knows it’s a complete crock.

 

[cnort]

It's almost as if teenage TT results are not very useful, and determined to no small extent by stage of physical development.

But time trials are the race of truth, and the truth don't lie!

I agree though - and I think there is variability across countries in how much TT exposure you get. The UK used to be all about TTs. The more you do it the better you get.

 

[cnort]

I think some people are getting caught up in whether Pogacar is a genuine talent or not. The reality is that all the top riders probably operate in the grey zone and many are wholeheartedly operating in the illegal zone.

We have no reference points for 'clean' performance for a given rider. A bad performance could have been because they rode paniagua, or because they had a bad day, or used the wrong kind of dope, or not enough dope, or were sick (not due to dope), or because the guys who beat him were super-doped, etc.

The only reality we have is the one we experience, supported by imperfect information to explain what we see. We cannot know what the GC would look like with zero doping. Do I think Pogacar would be in yellow? No. Would he only be pack fodder? I find that hard to believe too. Top 20 seems plausible. I think the donkey to race horse transformation can only be achieved intermittently and for a few seasons before it unravels. He's been at this five years now, so he probably has some talent.

 

[meat puppet]

The late 80s is a long time ago, but numbers-wise we have some info as to what GC racing did look like before serious oxygen vector doping.

Lemond had a vo2max in the low nineties (and let the world know about it, too), but couldn't break 6w/kg on long climbs. He trained in a fairly modern way too and was not about just miles on miles. Once EPO came, he became an also ran as riders began posting 6+ just like that.

Of course a proportion of the difference can be explained by equipment an France dynamics. But not all. WRs jumped in other endurance sports with the advent of epo too.

Moreover the talent argument is made as though it's about absolutes. But talent is relative to the institutional obstacle course that regulates cycling prep during a given period. Being a responder to whatever is possible to get away with is a "talent", although people evoking talent mean something more. And if one takes a further cynical step, being marketable is too.

As I've said several times, when the w/kg calculations became a thing physiologists of several persuasions were of the opinion that around 6w/kg for long 35-45min efforts is where somewhat plausible ends.