Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rotted Melon]

I have no hard evidence (no one does), but as someone who’s followed cycling for decades I’m increasingly convinced that some performances today simply don’t add up...

What could possibly explain this? 3 possibilities (the one more likely than the other):

1. Genetic manipulation (e.g. PGC‑1α)

2. AICAR and metabolic modulators

3. Mechanical assistance (inductive / electromagnetic systems)

...If that makes me skeptical, so be it.

I've followed pro cycling since I was 12, so about 40 years now. I grew up in an area/era where cycling was not considered a real sport. I was never fast enough to race, realizing now it's mostly because I had no access to anyone with any knowledge. And if I'm honest, the sport I really love is motorcycle racing, so I am more of a cycling enthusiast having been exposed to the pro ranks at a relatively young age. Thanks Greg LeMond!

Anyways, after reading the comments here over the past weeks, I am convinced that it isn't just one but all three of your decided possibilities. I think it is a win at all cost situation. I also think that the UC I has convinced themselves that if the record times don't continue to fall, that the public will lose interest, sponsors will leave, their budgets will fall and no one will be able to afford new Audi's every other year. It's very similar to the mindset of a corporation - profit line must go up or investors not happy, consequences be dammed.

There's a similar phenomenon going on in MotoGP right now with the promotion of certain riders over others and some open talk amongst those in the racing paddock about the allocation of special tires, rev-limiting, etc. It's no fun being in this moment where fraud seems to be rampant everywhere, but I guess that is just a consequence of the times we live in, or maybe things have always been this way...

I find it hard to believe that one would take medications/therapies to their own body, risking god knows what kinds of cancer or blood dyscrasias without taking the option of mechanical doping should it be available.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Pogačar needs to be careful when making enemies, especially with Nils Polit getting angry at riders attacking. Starting to get 2004 Lance Armstrong vibes.

 

[Rob5091]

Mou? yawn ....

 

[Ripper]

Pogačar needs to be careful when making enemies, especially with Nils Polit getting angry at riders attacking. Starting to get 2004 Lance Armstrong vibes.

Was Nils getting grouchy today again, or are you referring to Sunday?

 

[ashhutch1997]

Was Nila getting grouchy today again, or are you referring to Sunday?

Was referring to the other day.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Pogačar needs to be careful when making enemies, especially with Nils Polit getting angry at riders attacking. Starting to get 2004 Lance Armstrong vibes.

Pog is not one of the bad dopers hes a good doper precisely because he does not frown, yell, or chase down Siomeoni in a breakaway one time (the ultimate sin).

 

[Venge 82]

An Anatomy Of The Doping Story That Has The Tour de France Press Room Buzzing | Defector

MONTPELLIER, France — Fifteen stages and two rest days into the Tour de France, the talk of the press room is not Tadej Pogacar rampaging toward his fourth yellow jersey, brave Kevin Vauquelin trying for an unlikely top-five finish, or Jonas Vingegaard’s absurd time-trial helmet. The story that...

defector.com

This article is a must-read. It shows how the myth of clean racing was carefully constructed by Team Sky and Dave Brailsford — with their famous zero-tolerance policy and talk of marginal gains. Back then, doping was supposedly in the past, just like we're told today.

And just like now, anyone asking tough questions was seen as a nuisance. The media were discouraged, and PR spun a narrative of scientific progress: nutrition, training, equipment. Sounds familiar, right?

Meanwhile, today's performances are even more staggering than in the Wiggins/Froome era. L’histoire se répète — and this story shows how little has really changed beneath the surface.

 

[Red Rick]

Guys which nickname do we prefer? The Polittburo or the Polittzei

 

[repoman]

An Anatomy Of The Doping Story That Has The Tour de France Press Room Buzzing | Defector

MONTPELLIER, France — Fifteen stages and two rest days into the Tour de France, the talk of the press room is not Tadej Pogacar rampaging toward his fourth yellow jersey, brave Kevin Vauquelin trying for an unlikely top-five finish, or Jonas Vingegaard’s absurd time-trial helmet. The story that...

defector.com

This article is a must-read. It shows how the myth of clean racing was carefully constructed by Team Sky and Dave Brailsford — with their famous zero-tolerance policy and talk of marginal gains. Back then, doping was supposedly in the past, just like we're told today.

And just like now, anyone asking tough questions was seen as a nuisance. The media were discouraged, and PR spun a narrative of scientific progress: nutrition, training, equipment. Sounds familiar, right?

Meanwhile, today's performances are even more staggering than in the Wiggins/Froome era. L’histoire se répète — and this story shows how little has really changed beneath the surface.

I feel like this is just rehashing the Salbutomol thing which is very meh and basically published to serve as distraction for the current state which is mind blowingly beyond anything Sky achieved.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Guys which nickname do we prefer? The Polittburo or the Polittzei

Polittbüro sounds good!

 

[SorelyBoy]

I find the publication of the Sky story as very convenient for certain parties and quite a useful distraction just when things might be heating up as relates to UAE/Pogacar. Too convenient. Parking that for a moment, the fact is that Sky absolutely pushed the rules to the limit and maybe at times pushed through that limit. They were cutting edge in all areas, including perhaps in the use of TUEs when it came to certain weight loss drugs and, more infamously, Salbutomol. But considering the relative performance of their top riders juxtaposed with the watt machines we are seeing now, particularly Pogacar's ultra weird performances, then we have got to conclude that they were babes in the wood and almost Persil white clean. Again, look at races back then and you will be startled at the differences to now. The much loathed or lauded 'Sky Train' was able to control GC races because everyone was kept on the limit and in turn therefore limited in how extra deep they could go and for how long if they wanted to launch an attack - even their own main guy. So if the story is to do anything I hope it will be to get people and journalists asking questions of what we're all witnessing today - that if Sky were at least to some extent be considered to be 'at it', yet the riders of today are so astoundingly superior now, and one rider in particular vastly and consistently superior again, then what the hell is going on?

 

[kingjr]

I find the publication of the Sky story as very convenient for certain parties and quite a useful distraction just when things might be heating up as relates to UAE/Pogacar. Too convenient.

You think Hajo Seppelt and Paul Kimmage want to distract from UAE and Pogačar?

 

[Mr. 64%]

@SorelyBoy i guess that depends on what you read into the bigger narrative, given the pretty damning picture being painted by the Rozman case is indeed correct. Because how on earth is anyone supposed to believe the performances of today, if the mules of the mid 2010's had to resort to such complicated doping to achieve their pedestrian performances. Cause let's be honest, Nils Politt of the last two years would be a Tour winning contender in 2018 and 19.

 

[Venge 82]

I feel like this is just rehashing the Salbutomol thing which is very meh and basically published to serve as distraction for the current state which is mind blowingly beyond anything Sky achieved.

This article isn’t about the Salbutamol case with Chris Froome from 2017–2018. That was about an asthma medication and ended when the UCI dropped the case in July 2018.

The current story is about possible doping linked to events around 2011 and has nothing to do with Froome’s case. It’s a different situation involving other people.

I don’t think it’s meant to distract from UAE’s strong performances—if anything, it reminds us that doping questions still exist in the sport, and maybe more than we like to admit.

 

[Venge 82]

I find the publication of the Sky story as very convenient for certain parties and quite a useful distraction just when things might be heating up as relates to UAE/Pogacar. Too convenient. Parking that for a moment, the fact is that Sky absolutely pushed the rules to the limit and maybe at times pushed through that limit. They were cutting edge in all areas, including perhaps in the use of TUEs when it came to certain weight loss drugs and, more infamously, Salbutomol. But considering the relative performance of their top riders juxtaposed with the watt machines we are seeing now, particularly Pogacar's ultra weird performances, then we have got to conclude that they were babes in the wood and almost Persil white clean. Again, look at races back then and you will be startled at the differences to now. The much loathed or lauded 'Sky Train' was able to control GC races because everyone was kept on the limit and in turn therefore limited in how extra deep they could go and for how long if they wanted to launch an attack - even their own main guy. So if the story is to do anything I hope it will be to get people and journalists asking questions of what we're all witnessing today - that if Sky were at least to some extent be considered to be 'at it', yet the riders of today are so astoundingly superior now, and one rider in particular vastly and consistently superior again, then what the hell is going on?

Yes, exactly! That’s pretty much what I was thinking, just better said.

 

[Rackham]

Anecdotally I'm starting to see some real anti-Pog sentiment this year, i.e. more so than in the past. L'Equipe is currently running with the headline quoting Pog saying people should "shut up"" about UAE's arrogance. That sort of stuff adds up.

There's also the fact he just doesn't 'smile' as much as previous years. It sounds dumb but he really did benefit from being a kid.

And Politt doesn't help matters either. The man was a douche when he mocked Rog for falling last year so I'm happy to see him get served a plate of ire for his behavior yesterday.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Guys which nickname do we prefer? The Polittburo or the Polittzei

Polittzei makes sense, Polittbüro, at least if you know what that was, is a bit confusing. But also funny.

 

[dr.eve]

Very true, people act like it's only Pogacar who has good training/ nutrition equipment ect, its almost like people think the rest of the peloton are still in the 1980's.

I even dare to claim that there are several teams that have the training/nutrition arranged better than UAE.

 

[dr.eve]

Long thread, but has anything like this come up in the discussion? This is just copy pasta from Google search. EPO was a new technology at one time too and the Arabs do seem to have deep pockets. Could Pogacar be a pedaling science experiment?

Performance Enhancing Use of CRISPR Technology

Potential applications in sports doping

• Targeting specific genes: CRISPR could be used to target and modify genes associated with athletic performance, such as those impacting muscle growth, endurance, oxygen delivery, and injury resistance.
• Creating 'super athletes': Theoretically, CRISPR could lead to athletes with enhanced abilities beyond natural human limits, according to SynBioBeta. This could potentially create a new category of genetically enhanced athletes who possess advantages beyond what is achievable through training and nutrition alone.

Regulatory challenges and detection

• Difficulty in detection: Unlike conventional doping, CRISPR-induced genetic modifications could be difficult to detect with existing testing methods, posing a challenge for anti-doping agencies like the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).
• WADA's stance: WADA has already outlawed gene editing and included it in their list of prohibited substances and methods due to its potential to offer limitless competitive advantages at the genetic level.
• Ongoing research for detection: Researchers are actively developing methods to detect gene doping, including identifying foreign DNA sequences or vectors used for gene delivery. However, the evolving nature of gene-editing technologies means that detection methods need continuous refinement and development.

Nevermind, found the search button and see it came up back in April. Carry on.

As also mentioned earlier this month is that when looking at CRISPR, which would be a real gene edit with is everlasting, is that there is a much safer, cheaper and more practical way to achieve these types of effects: little bits of RNA, antisenseoligonucleotides. This technology is way more applicable to use.

 

[dr.eve]

I think it's possible something like HGH would make you less susceptible to illness during a couple weeks of destroying your body.
Also, for the sake of argument say MvdP is clean and he is racing against a doped rider and matching him, that would mean his baseline physiology is doing a lot more work than the doper, he is working harder, causing more stress on his body overall.
FWIW I think MvdP has one of the strongest cases for being clean at his level. Comes from cycling royalty so his genes are going to be as good as you can get, and he was absolutely dominant at pretty much every stage of his career.

And MVDP actually has the normal physiological supercompensation, periods of decreased fitness et cetera. Unlike Pogacar. I honestly believe MVDP is clean.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Anecdotally I'm starting to see some real anti-Pog sentiment this year, i.e. more so than in the past. L'Equipe is currently running with the headline quoting Pog saying people should "shut up"" about UAE's arrogance. That sort of stuff adds up.

There's also the fact he just doesn't 'smile' as much as previous years. It sounds dumb but he really did benefit from being a kid.

And Politt doesn't help matters either. The man was a douche when he mocked Rog for falling last year so I'm happy to see him get served a plate of ire for his behavior yesterday.

Dopestrong used to have a couple of muscle men around during some of the later tdfs iirc. Could be necessary for Poggi too moving forward.

 

[ashhutch1997]

I reckon we'll be visiting this thread after tomorrow's stage lads.

 

[E_F_]

I reckon we'll be visiting this thread after tomorrow's stage lads.

All the talk will be in the Johnny Vinegar-thread!

 

[kingjr]

All the talk will be in the Johnny Vinegar-thread!

Just like after the Ventoux stage!

 

[pelotonIQ]

Some cycling podcasts are starting to parrot ''Pogacar needs to show us that he is clean'' which got me thinking of the possibility of Visma influecing these podcasts under the table and 5 minutes later the podcast is sponsored by Silica which is a Team-Visma partner and the one of the hosts talked about how he got invited to one of Vismas facilities and talked about his visit there

One thing is for sure, Visma has influence over many cycling podcasts and youtube channels, either by hiring them or indirectly sponsoring them.