Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Berniece]

Not a single moment in the race did I see Pogacar from his saddle. Everyone else from the top 5 multiple times.

 

[kingjr]

Not a single moment in the race did I see Pogacar from his saddle. Everyone else from the top 5 multiple times.

What? Did you even bother watching?

 

[kingjr]

Not a single moment in the race did I see Pogacar from his saddle. Everyone else from the top 5 multiple times.

Just as an example: He was out of the saddle for 52 seconds, continuously, during his first attack, then sat down for around 15 seconds, and then stood up again for around 15 seconds.

This is like last year during the Giro when someone said he gained time while celebrating in the last kilometre when in fact he lost time.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Well I’m not watching Lombardia, that’s for sure

Don't lose hopes. There's a long, flat section in the finale and Teddy was clearly fading today in the last 1-2 km.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Either way. Here's a picture of Pogacar winning a stage at the Course de la Paix on an oldish Fondriest bike.

His compatriot Primozic finished 4th in Course de la Paix 2016, Pogacar... 26th
I guess Primozic is the real generational Slovenian talent.
Edit: 3rd, not 4th and Primozic is a few months younger than Pogacar.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Even funnier: his compatriot Primozic finished 4th in Course de la Paix 2016
I guess he's the real generational Slovenian talent.

Primozic is a secret child of Primoz Roglic. No wonder he's good.

 

[Revelation]

Meh, the worst thing cycling did for itself (leaving morality/ethics and things like that aside) was try to become clean, and becoming the sport most synonymous with doping in the process. That always breaks the integrity of the sport in the minds of people forever, so all future results and achievements will have a major cloud hanging over them.

Look at something on the opposite end of the scale: tennis has always aggressively insisted doping doesn't exist (except for maybe some random #600 in the world) and protected it's top players, so when the 2 most doped players of all time, Nadal and Djokovic, arrived and destroyed the record books, it was able to keep the show going for almost 2 decades without much issue. Looking at Nadal (clear #1 doper and one of the most doped humans in history IMO), I'd argue he had 10+ years, where his relative athletic advantage over the field was greater than what Pogacar's relative advantage has been the last 2 years. He then went on to win 14 French Opens in 18 years (previous open era record was 6) and as a result the French installed a plaque on the tournament's center court. Not sure Pogacar would get the same reception if he somehow won 14 TdFs.

And now you have Alcaraz doing around Djokovic' level doping, with 6 slams at age 22, and it's also the greatest thing ever. (Willful) ignorance if always bliss, when it comes to running a professional sport.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Meh, the worst thing cycling did for itself (leaving morality/ethics and things like that aside) was try to become clean, and becoming the sport most synonymous with doping in the process. That always breaks the integrity of the sport in the minds of people forever, so all future results and achievements will have a major cloud hanging over them.

Look at something on the opposite end of the scale: tennis has always aggressively insisted doping doesn't exist (except for maybe some random #600 in the world) and protected it's top players, so when the 2 most doped players of all time, Nadal and Djokovic, arrived and destroyed the record books, it was able to keep the show going for almost 2 decades without much issue. Looking at Nadal (clear #1 doper and one of the most doped humans in history IMO), I'd argue he had 10+ years, where his relative athletic advantage over the field was greater than what Pogacar's relative advantage has been the last 2 years. He then went on to win 14 French Opens in 18 years (previous open era record was 6) and as a result the French installed a plaque on the tournament's center court. Not sure Pogacar would get the same reception if he somehow won 14 TdFs.

And now you have Alcaraz doing around Djokovic' level doping, with 6 slams at age 22, and it's also the greatest thing ever. (Willful) ignorance if always bliss, when it comes to running a professional sport.

Cycling has been quickly recovering from doping for some time. There are way less questions and suspicions than 20, 10 or even 5 years ago. Pogi had to answer a lot of questions during his long leadership at the Tour'2021 but now he's simply the GOAT so no questions are needed.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Cycling has been quickly recovering from doping for some time. There are way less questions and suspicions than 20, 10 or even 5 years ago. Pogi had to answer a lot of questions during his long leadership at the Tour'2021 but now he's simply the GOAT so no questions are needed.

Bro his team manager is Mauro Gianetti, but yeah he's 100% squeaky clean.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Bro his team manager is Mauro Gianetti, but yeah he's 100% squeaky clean.

Not sure if you understood what I meant. I never implied it.

 

[Extinction]

Cycling has been quickly recovering from doping for some time. There are way less questions and suspicions than 20, 10 or even 5 years ago. Pogi had to answer a lot of questions during his long leadership at the Tour'2021 but now he's simply the GOAT so no questions are needed.

The truly amazing thing is nobody seems to be asking questions. It's like a journalistic white flag has been raised over him. I don't take this as a sign, however, that suspicions have lessened from years past, just the hog has devoured all discent. Terrifying.

 

[Abedfo]

Meh, the worst thing cycling did for itself (leaving morality/ethics and things like that aside) was try to become clean, and becoming the sport most synonymous with doping in the process. That always breaks the integrity of the sport in the minds of people forever, so all future results and achievements will have a major cloud hanging over them.

Look at something on the opposite end of the scale: tennis has always aggressively insisted doping doesn't exist (except for maybe some random #600 in the world) and protected it's top players, so when the 2 most doped players of all time, Nadal and Djokovic, arrived and destroyed the record books, it was able to keep the show going for almost 2 decades without much issue. Looking at Nadal (clear #1 doper and one of the most doped humans in history IMO), I'd argue he had 10+ years, where his relative athletic advantage over the field was greater than what Pogacar's relative advantage has been the last 2 years. He then went on to win 14 French Opens in 18 years (previous open era record was 6) and as a result the French installed a plaque on the tournament's center court. Not sure Pogacar would get the same reception if he somehow won 14 TdFs.

And now you have Alcaraz doing around Djokovic' level doping, with 6 slams at age 22, and it's also the greatest thing ever. (Willful) ignorance if always bliss, when it comes to running a professional sport.

Tennis is hilarious the top (most doped) players barely even break sweat playing in 35 degree heat.

 

[ashhutch1997]

The truly amazing thing is nobody seems to be asking questions. It's like a journalistic white flag has been raised over him. I don't take this as a sign, however, that suspicions have lessened from years past, just the hog has devoured all discent. Terrifying.

Unfortunately these days you go against the mainstream narrative.

 

[Cookster15]

The truly amazing thing is nobody seems to be asking questions. It's like a journalistic white flag has been raised over him. I don't take this as a sign, however, that suspicions have lessened from years past, just the hog has devoured all discent. Terrifying.

Why would a journalistic white flag be raised - serious question? This goes to the heart of a free press.

But I think we need to ask - what was wrong with Remco today? He finished only 31 seconds down when Pog attacked at 75km to go. Why couldn't Remco hold his wheel when Pog attacked? It wasn't a HC mountain. Not saying it wasn't but why do I read motor doping innuendo when Remco only finished 31 seconds clear?

Also, why did Jonas pull the pin with 109 km to go? Why did he show up if he was in such poor form? Disappointing.

 

[YellowSocks]

Why would a journalistic white flag be raised - serious question? This goes to the heart of a free press.

But I think we need to ask - what was wrong with Remco today? He finished only 31 seconds down when Pog attacked at 75km to go. Why couldn't Remco hold his wheel when Pog attacked? It wasn't a HC mountain. Not saying it wasn't but why do I read motor doping innuendo when Remco only finished 31 seconds clear?

Also, why did Jonas pull the pin with 109 km to go? Why did he show up if he was in such poor form? Disappointing.

Pogacar winning doesn't mean Remco and Jonas are clean either.

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar winning doesn't mean Remco and Jonas are clean either.

I was reminded of this in the 2024 Tour when all three riders were faster than Pantani's 1998 record time on Plateau de Beille:

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

I wish the fan groups of other riders would try to be a little more objective when complaining about Pog's performances.

 

[YellowSocks]

I was reminded of this in the 2024 Tour when all three riders were faster than Pantani's 1998 record time on Plateau de Beille:

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

I wish the fan groups of other riders would try to be a little more objective when complaining about Pog's performances.

Doping or not, let's not forget Pogacar is way ahead of the others. Even unbeatable at the moment.
It's only natural that he's the one we talk about.

 

[Rou]

Why would a journalistic white flag be raised - serious question? This goes to the heart of a free press.

But I think we need to ask - what was wrong with Remco today? He finished only 31 seconds down when Pog attacked at 75km to go. Why couldn't Remco hold his wheel when Pog attacked? It wasn't a HC mountain.

If you look at the climbing data Pog's performance was monstrous on the climb. Remco was also strong but not at that level.
And the real difference was not 31 secs. Pog was cruising in the last kms.

 

[Extinction]

Why would a journalistic white flag be raised - serious question? This goes to the heart of a free press.

But I think we need to ask - what was wrong with Remco today? He finished only 31 seconds down when Pog attacked at 75km to go. Why couldn't Remco hold his wheel when Pog attacked? It wasn't a HC mountain. Not saying it wasn't but why do I read motor doping innuendo when Remco only finished 31 seconds clear?

Also, why did Jonas pull the pin with 109 km to go? Why did he show up if he was in such poor form? Disappointing.

I'm not inferring motor doping. Remco got dropped, because he could not handle the pace. The last 30 secs gained by him, was because Pogi was celebrating. My point was that, contrary to the Armstrong to Froome era, to only go back that far, but I could go back to Delgado, when I first became aware, the journos don't make a fuss with him today. As far as a "free press" is concerned, news as market has clearly triumphed.

 

[Extinction]

Unfortunately these days you go against the mainstream narrative.

I'm a heretic.

 

[ashhutch1997]

I was reminded of this in the 2024 Tour when all three riders were faster than Pantani's 1998 record time on Plateau de Beille:

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

I wish the fan groups of other riders would try to be a little more objective when complaining about Pog's performances.

I and many other people went bonkers on the clinic after Vingegaard went thermonuclear in the Combloux ITT. But Pogacar's raise in performance from 2024 onwards is like nothing I've ever seen in my 25 plus years watching pro cycling.
FYI I was a huge fan of Pogacar, but last year it became too much, and so obvious.

 

[Cookster15]

If you look at the climbing data Pog's performance was monstrous on the climb. Remco was also strong but not at that level.
And the real gap was not 31 secs. Pog was cruising in the last kms.

That's fair. But it was only a 1.6km climb albeit at 9.7%.

And getting back to motivations by UAE, why would UAE care about the European road championships?

 

[Cookster15]

I and many other people went bonkers on the clinic after Vingegaard went thermonuclear in the Combloux ITT. But Pogacar's raise in performance from 2024 onwards is like something I've ever seen in my 25 plus years watching pro cycling.

Well, I've been watching pro cycling since 1992. Obviously I am well aware of doping. But I also know doping doesn't explain everything we see. When we begin to explain everything through the lense of doping we are undervaluing other variables.

Doping doesn't fully explain what happened today. I only watched the highlights but why was Jonas so poor and why couldn't Remco hold Pogacar's wheel on such a short albeit steep climb?

 

[ashhutch1997]

Well, I've been watching pro cycling since 1992. Obviously I am well aware of doping. But I also know doping doesn't explain everything we see. When we begin to explain everything through the lense of doping we are undervaluing other variables.

Doping doesn't fully explain what happened today. I only watched the highlights but why was Jonas so poor and why couldn't Remco hold Pogacar's wheel on such a short albeit steep climb?

I'm not necessarily talking about today, but the last two years.

 

[Ripper]

That's fair. But it was only a 1.6km climbs albeit at 9.7%.

And getting back to motivations by UAE, why would UAE care about teh European road championships?

The motivations of whomever or whatever is always an important question to ask, but one of the most challenging to get an answer to until quite a bit later.

As for the difference, it is clear when Pog is going full on (gap growing at a crazy rate), when he is simply holding a pace (looks pretty dang easy from what we can see muscularly and physiologically), and when he is taking it easy (usually the last kilometer(s)). I think if Pog wanted to bury himself, it would have been a larger gap.

From the facts we know, Pog is obviously less aero than Remco. From things that are likely true, we are told Pog weighs more than Remco (but we also know he outclimbs Remco in pretty much every occasion). So, if you weigh more, and can still climb faster, and can hold gaps with terrible aerodynamics, then it comes down to you having just that many more watts. And when you have that much of a 'reserve' of wattage over others, you can win pretty much all year long.