Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

I'm not inferring motor doping. Remco got dropped, because he could not handle the pace. The last 30 secs gained by him, was because Pogi was celebrating. My point was that, contrary to the Armstrong to Froome era, to only go back that far, but I could go back to Delgado, when I first became aware, the journos don't make a fuss with him today. As far as a "free press" is concerned, news as market has clearly triumphed.

I keep on hearing we live in the post truth era. Seems like if people cannot agree on facts in general, then the news becomes somewhat meaningless.

 

[Ripper]

Motivations of team owners are an interesting one. From simple (they really like cycling), to business interests (diversification, vertical integration), to sport-washing, to downright money laundering, etc. And not mutually exclusive categories!

 

[YellowSocks]

Doping doesn't fully explain what happened today. I only watched the highlights but why was Jonas so poor and why couldn't Remco hold Pogacar's wheel on such a short albeit steep climb?

Jonas: bad "preparation"?
Remco: not on the same stuff as Tadej?

The discussion is somewhat vain, as the two sides will never reach an agreement. For some, it is obvious that something is going on, while others demand proof. I have no proof, but it is glaringly obvious to me: the UAE, and Tadej ahead, are going too far. I am well aware that saying that I don't open a conversation, but I don't know what else to say. And no argument would make me change my mind.

 

[dr.eve]

The only rider in history who enters races across the entire year in 100% infallible form. Yeah cool story bro.

This... It is always the same story.

I mean as said before, a person like MVDP openly speaks about yes I aim to do this but my form is so so and after this race I will take a break or go back to training... And he actually shows this dip in shape also.

Pogacar just goes out there all year long showing not one real dip. His Amstel Gold Race or a few moments in the tour were not a dip.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Pogacar winning doesn't mean Remco and Jonas are clean either.

Maybe not, but the fact that both have bonked several times over the past couple of years at least gives them some credibility compared to Pogi.

I've said it many times in The Clinic, but to me, credibility is absolutely a spectrum, and while Jonas and Remco are definitely on the very suspicious end of the spectrum, neither comes even remotely close to Pogi, who is the world's absolute best at basically almost everything from February through October.

It's been seven months since he won Strade Bianche with a ridiculous performance. Since then, he has won countless big victories, including but not limited to soloing ~20 km to another De Ronde win, soloing ~35 km to another La Doyenne win, soloing ~65 km to another World Championships win, and soloing ~75 km to a European Championships win. We all know that he'll be finishing off with a +40 km solo win at Lombardia.

The worst part? This is basically a 1:1 copy of what he did last year, where he also had seven months of unbeatable, absolute top form, no off days, racing from kilometer zero day in, day out, routinely winning from +30 km out, climbing, sprinting, time trialing, on the cobbles, descending, you name it.

Don't try to tell me that Jonas or Remco, or anyone for that matter, does anything even remotely as suspicious as that. It's quite simply unbelievable; as in not to be believed.

 

[dr.eve]

Jonas: bad "preparation"?
Remco: not on the same stuff as Tadej?

The discussion is somewhat vain, as the two sides will never reach an agreement. For some, it is obvious that something is going on, while others demand proof. I have no proof, but it is glaringly obvious to me: the UAE, and Tadej ahead, are going too far. I am well aware that saying that I don't open a conversation, but I don't know what else to say. And no argument would make me change my mind.

I agree completely. I do not believe in motor doping with Pogacar, though I can understand the suspicion it does sound mostly rather far fetched. But then again I also have no proof but I simply have the feeling this can not be right and indeed no matter what someone says I will not think differently.

There's only one way I could possibly believe Pogacar more, him changing teams and ditching Gianetti.

 

[Stablo]

Why would a journalistic white flag be raised - serious question? This goes to the heart of a free press.

But I think we need to ask - what was wrong with Remco today? He finished only 31 seconds down when Pog attacked at 75km to go. Why couldn't Remco hold his wheel when Pog attacked? It wasn't a HC mountain. Not saying it wasn't but why do I read motor doping innuendo when Remco only finished 31 seconds clear?

Also, why did Jonas pull the pin with 109 km to go? Why did he show up if he was in such poor form? Disappointing.

Remco gained 30-40 seconds while pog the dog eased of in the last kilometers. It was breathtaking easy for pog to maintain the about 1min advantage for 70+ kilometers, first against four riders(okey Remco doing most of the work) and then against Remco. It is like watching the same movie on repeat and I am out of words, farce, joke etc. don't make justice to this anymore. Watching pog&Remco riding against each other solo again on flat, looking at the way they ride(pog still a bit like a coalminer), when you know how much better Remco is on TT and the gap just doesn't come down. It's not like today was super attritional and that the recovery is the magic word in pogs advantage.

 

[dr.eve]

Maybe not, but the fact that both have bonked several times over the past couple of years at least gives them some credibility compared to Pogi.

I've said it many times in The Clinic, but to me, credibility is absolutely a spectrum, and while Jonas and Remco are definitely on the very suspicious end of the spectrum, neither comes even remotely close to Pogi, who is the world's absolute best at basically almost everything from February through October.

It's been seven months since he won Strade Bianche with a ridiculous performance. Since then, he has won countless big victories, including but not limited to soloing ~20 km to another De Ronde win, soloing ~35 km to another La Doyenne win, soloing ~65 km to another World Championships win, and soloing ~75 km to a European Championships win. We all know that he'll be finishing off with a +40 km solo win at Lombardia.

The worst part? This is basically a 1:1 copy of what he did last year, where he also had seven months of unbeatable, absolute top form, no off days, racing from kilometer zero day in, day out, routinely winning from +30 km out, climbing, sprinting, time trialing, on the cobbles, descending, you name it.

Don't try to tell me that Jonas or Remco, or anyone for that matter, does anything even remotely as suspicious as that. It's quite simply unbelievable; as in not to be believed.

Exactly, no one does anything remotely close to Pogacar. Vingegaard, Evenepoel, MVDP, van Aert and so on all have had really really bad moments that actually made them loose big time. Pogacar's bad moments still make him win and at worst case earn him a podium spot 🤣🤣 And even more odd, his so called bad moments don't even look bad.

 

[YellowSocks]

This... It is always the same story.

I mean as said before, a person like MVDP openly speaks about yes I aim to do this but my form is so so and after this race I will take a break or go back to training... And he actually shows this dip in shape also.

Pogacar just goes out there all year long showing not one real dip. His Amstel Gold Race or a few moments in the tour were not a dip.

I had this Bowie song stuck in my head while I was watching the race: “Always crashing in the same car.” I don't often get the chance to watch races live, and I feel like I'm always watching the same race. During the race, I cleaned the bathroom from top to bottom and focused on the battle for the bronze medal.

Something in my schedule for next weekend has been canceled, so I'll be able to watch Il Lombardia. I think I'll clean the kitchen this time.

Knowing who is going to will and how he is going to win is not normal.

 

[Extinction]

Exactly, no one does anything remotely close to Pogacar. Vingegaard, Evenepoel, MVDP, van Aert and so on all have had really really bad moments that actually made them loose big time. Pogacar's bad moments still make him win and at worst case earn him a podium spot 🤣🤣 And even more odd, his so called bad moments don't even look bad.

Pog's bad moments ceased after twice getting beaten by Vingo at the Tour. Afterward he's been untouchable, while Vingo's level improved, despite the setbacks. It's not like Vingo fell off the map. UAE must have reprogramed him or something.

 

[AlpRaid]

...what about carbon monoxide? WADA is banning it in 2026. great. but how do you police that?

and it can apparently give the same boost as EPO which is the type of jump pog did between 2023 and 2024.

and we have Visma and UAE who both admitted using it, and now there is really no way of enforcing the "ban".

 

[how yes no?]

What I wanna know is why didn't they use whatever whatever is being used also for worlds TT, I was quite disappointed by that result.

Also, next time I'm sad I should give a try to crying in a group session, seems to work wonders if it's peoples go-to solution here after each race.

don't worry, I'm not here to interfere with your enjoyment, I'm gone, I'm dead

 

[Extinction]

What I wanna know is why didn't they use whatever whatever is being used also for worlds TT, I was quite disappointed by that result.

Also, next time I'm sad I should give a try to crying in a group session, seems to work wonders if it's peoples go-to solution here after each race.

don't worry, I'm not here to interfere with your enjoyment, I'm gone, I'm dead

Image management.

 

[Stablo]

Pogacar winning doesn't mean Remco and Jonas are clean either.

In no way, but im certain that UAE&Gianetti&Co have an serious advantage. Like US Postal and Lance(Froomie!!) had back in the days. Only that no it is even worse. Anyway when I look at the results/performances that MDVP, Remco and Vinge achieve it is sooo much more beliavable compared to what Gianettis monster is doing. When did pogster do the thing that Vinge did today? After two GT:s last year never a bad day still for pog. Remco has been all over the place, mostly cause of injuries but still. MDVP excels on his specific skill set. This clownshow is almost the same if MDVP would suddenly start being a GC winner in GT:s.

And to be honest nothing ever indicated to pog being more talented than MDVP, WVA and especially Remco. With Vingos rise you could maybe make a claim, but even then a classics monster like pog demolishing a mountain skeletor like Vinge in high altitude is just laughable🤡

View: https://youtu.be/IuwxZSIS__4?si=UiAAwTI0gukTco0l


This is the song that keeps playing in my head while watching the pog magic/history with no fatique and 24/7/365 top shape😍

 

[Ripper]

I had this Bowie song stuck in my head while I was watching the race: “Always crashing in the same car.” I don't often get the chance to watch races live, and I feel like I'm always watching the same race. During the race, I cleaned the bathroom from top to bottom and focused on the battle for the bronze medal.

Something in my schedule for next weekend has been canceled, so I'll be able to watch Il Lombardia. I think I'll clean the kitchen this time.

Knowing who is going to will and how he is going to win is not normal.

Especially when the way they are going to win is by riding away, solo, for 1-2 hours or more. Gaining on the climbs, holding on the descents, gaining on the flats.

 

[how yes no?]

Image management.

but then why let Vine be so much ahead... it if was team picture, that was being managed, that part didn't help it... also it seems rather funny image management, to then dominate again on the next weekend. No sorry, I won't buy this as the excuse that can take the blame for my great disappointment.

 

[AlpRaid]

Pogacar winning doesn't mean Remco and Jonas are clean either.

agreed.

however, I will always believe the guy who trounces everyone as soon as he picks up a bike more.

maybe it's that I am a Lemond fan. but there is something to say about these teenage prodigies who then inexplicably start getting beat by racers who make sudden huge jumps in performances.

 

[Stablo]

Anyone else just straight up not watching these races any longer? I just can't be bothered. No interest whatsoever in watching the same single rider do the same suspicious thing over and over and over again.

I had to watch a replay only today after some kids bday party. Fastforwarded it after pogs attack and going to cancel my HBO sports after this finally. The series they have are great and there everyone at least knows it's fiction. Cycling was the only sport I watched there and it's just too much. From now on if im watching cycling it's from freestreams, the love is too deep to be completely left behind🥲🫠

 

[Cookster15]

Jonas: bad "preparation"?
Remco: not on the same stuff as Tadej?

The discussion is somewhat vain, as the two sides will never reach an agreement. For some, it is obvious that something is going on, while others demand proof. I have no proof, but it is glaringly obvious to me: the UAE, and Tadej ahead, are going too far. I am well aware that saying that I don't open a conversation, but I don't know what else to say. And no argument would make me change my mind.

I think we can be sure something is going on with all these riders - 2024 PdB is virtually proof. What I find frustrating here is a lack of explanation how. The Clinic becomes a place where fans of other riders come to vent when their rider doesn't win.

I am still unconvinced of the explanations I have read here for how the UCI passport can be fooled with EPO micro-dosing.

Hemoglobin is how oxygen is transported to muscles to generate sustained cycling power. The markers tracked by the UCI passport include total hemoglobin not just the ratio and age (Reticulocyte count) of RBCs etc which is what micro-dosing hides. Here it is: ABP Operating Guidelines. Under ABP Operating Guidelines 8.0 there is a list of the markers tracked.

And why would UAE doctors be better at fooling this than say Visma or Red Bull's?

I also remain unconvinced of motor doping occurring. Only UCI collusion would explain that but again there are a lack of convincing explanations here of how and why? Nobody is stopping rival teams behind the scenes* or even talking to ambitious journalists (like Walsh did with Armstrong) who have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

*Behind the scenes will avoid conjecture becoming public and possible risk of legal suits.

 

[YellowSocks]

I think we can be sure something is going on with all these riders

May be we could say that something is more going on with Tadej (like some animals are more equal than others)? I think your choice of Plateau de Beille is a good one, it gives an idea of the proportions.

I am still unconvinced of the explanations I have read here for how the UCI passport can be fooled with EPO micro-dosing.

I am not a doctor but I know anti-doping authorities have frequently been fooled, and we know the UCI can be accommodating when needed.

And why would UAE doctors be better at fooling this than say Visma or Red Bull's?

I have a feeling it has to do with infinite money.

 

[Abedfo]

May be we could say that something is more going on with Tadej (like some animals are more equal than others)? I think your choice of Plateau de Beille is a good one, it gives an idea of the proportions.


I am not a doctor but I know anti-doping authorities have frequently been fooled, and we know the UCI can be accommodating when needed.

I have a feeling it has to do with infinite money.

I'd assume a hell of a lot of palm greasing is going on.

 

[Stablo]

Jonas: bad "preparation"?
Remco: not on the same stuff as Tadej?

The discussion is somewhat vain, as the two sides will never reach an agreement. For some, it is obvious that something is going on, while others demand proof. I have no proof, but it is glaringly obvious to me: the UAE, and Tadej ahead, are going too far. I am well aware that saying that I don't open a conversation, but I don't know what else to say. And no argument would make me change my mind.

This is very well said, couldn't agree more. It seems like there's never really going to be an agreement, but it's beyond obvious that pog&UAE are doing/having something the others dont. It's been like this at least for two years. I think that Visma catched up with them a bit in 22/23(even though pog was overall still number 1!), but now it has just been too much. Toro, Almeida etc. etc. but above all the pogster, totally unbeliavable. PDBF TT was already really a Ricco moment for me, but I was still in a whatever-mode for a couple of years, even though i know something was rotten.

BUT this transformation after learning how to "train" at +25 years of age, it is just way too much to accept. It screams better dope all over it and untill very recently(2 years) I was against of the whole motor doping-theory, but now it seems one the most realistical doping advantages you can have. Considering you are always on top shape when needed, never tired and always fresh. No oxygen vector doping can fully explain that, unless there is some new gene-doping going on that we don't knoe of, with the unlimited resources. The P-R was the last straw, come on! On the modern highly competive peloton you just can't be the HC-mountain goat and a big boys classic dominator at the same time 🤯It just isn't realistically plausible anymore.

 

[how yes no?]

May be we could say that something is more going on with Tadej (like some animals are more equal than others)? I think your choice of Plateau de Beille is a good one, it gives an idea of the proportions.

But what about all the others, not just top 3, are Vinge and Evenepoel doing proportionally more than them?
Or can some differences also come from other factors (such as one being a better cyclist)?


People wanna talk young talent? Mohoric was the first to win U18 and U23 WC RR one after another (before signing for a pro team) but the results did not translate like that to the pros... even Gianneti in UAE could not do "anything" with him.
Even in the victorious years of Bahrain, he was not really able to compete with great talents from the Benelux that were cited here.
So I guess talent in the youth (specially when some grow/mature faster than others) is not everything, or if it is, we can take this Mohoric example about proportions (of something going on) between the guys in peloton.

[content deleted]

 

[Tim Cahill]

Analysis of Aderlass athletes who were found to be blood doping showed no biopassport abnormalities, reinfusion seems to just occur at a smaller but more frequent rate as evidenced and as Dr. Fuentes suggested, I imagine there are also other workarounds;

Biological Passport: Have dopers found ways to beat it?

Procycling investigates the cracks that have appeared in the tool credited with cleaning up cycling

www.cyclingnews.com

I understand it is constantly being updated based upon new parameters, but given the hundreds of blood-doping positives in cycling and athletics since it's introduction that weren't also accompanied by AAFs I would suggest it just provides a stumbling block to this method rather than an outright bulwark.

I'm not sure about UAE, perhaps they have found something else more fast-acting, Vingegaard's program does feel like something that preparation is required for, hence him falling off a cliff today and in San Sebastian last time.

 

[Stablo]

I was reminded of this in the 2024 Tour when all three riders were faster than Pantani's 1998 record time on Plateau de Beille:

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

I wish the fan groups of other riders would try to be a little more objective when complaining about Pog's performances.

With this I have to totally disagree with. It wasn't this particular day or performance, but the way this one guy does anything he wants, when ever he wants in an endurance sport. I might be a bit biased, cause I like Remco because of his natural progression and ability. I would also turn against him if he started doing poggie kind of seasons, it is just not beliavable. And now matter what anyone tried to convince me about, I will never believe that pog is naturally more talented than Remco or even MDVP. It would have never happened, but if it was without Gianetti&Co this dominance, but nah never. In a endurance sport like cycling the pog-thing is not real in a modern highly professional peloton. We used to laugh at the Landis raid, Froome was bad, Contador was suspect often, but now something way! more unbeliavable is the new normal. I am just out of words anymore.