Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[aphronesis]

I agree. Maybe “professionalism” doesn’t have the right range, and bureaucratic or administrative would get a little deeper? (Counterintuitive as that might be.)

 

[ashhutch1997]

Or simply cycling can't afford another major scandal and so market interests have taken over, amongst the federation and journos alike. The war on doping thus succombs to don't spit on the plate from which you eat. Taking access to professionalism as explaining the ridiculous feats of today, is only a means for them (the UCI and journalism) to justify not fighting against it.

If cycling can survive Armstrong it can survive anything. Lance Armstrong was the biggest star cycling has ever had, even people who had no interest in cycling knew who he was and his story. Let's be real, unless you are either Slovenian or a cycling fan, the chances are that people have never heard of Tadej Pogačar.

 

[Extinction]

If cycling can survive Armstrong it can survive anything. Lance Armstrong was the biggest star cycling has ever had, even people who had no interest in cycling knew who he was and his story. Let's be real, unless you are either Slovenian or a cycling fan, the chances are that people have never heard of Tadej Pogačar.

It was mostly commercially driven and in this America excels. For the rest of the word at the time, outside cycling, most only knew of Armstrong through Nike publicity and it didn't increase the audience.

 

[kingjr]

It was mostly commercially driven and in this America excels. For the rest of the word at the time, outside cycling, most only knew of Armstrong through Nike publicity and it didn't increase the audience.

Armstrong was a big deal over here as well. My grandfather who wasn't even into cycling had his book at home and 8-year-old me was begging him to let me read it (he thought it wasn't appropriate for one as young as me, but I got him around after a couple of months). I still saw kids who weren't even into cycling wear Livestrong wristbands years later, and everybody knew who he was. Part of that's of course because Ullrich was huge at the time, so cycling got plenty of attention anyway, but Armstrong's story still had a big impact on its own (Remember, Ullrich didn't race in '99).

 

[Krzysztof_O]

This post alone makes today, Wednesday the 8th of October, 2025, a horrendous day to have eyes

What a *** legend! The forum is not worthy of the mighty RR.

 

[Extinction]

Armstrong was a big deal over here as well. My grandfather who wasn't even into cycling had his book at home and 8-year-old me was begging him to let me read it (he thought it wasn't appropriate for one as young as me, but I got him around after a couple of months). I still saw kids who weren't even into cycling wear Livestrong wristbands years later, and everybody knew who he was. Part of that's of course because Ullrich was huge at the time, so cycling got plenty of attention anyway, but Armstrong's story still had a big impact on its own (Remember, Ullrich didn't race in '99).

In Italy, as in much of Europe, Armstrong outside the cycling community was marginal at best.

 

[kingjr]

In Italy, as in much of Europe, Armstrong outside the cycling community, was marginal at best.

How doe we measure that, and how do we compare that to cyclists in general?

 

[Extinction]

How doe we measure that, and how do we compare that to cyclists in general?

Cycling globally is measureably less impactful than a host of sports, with Armstrong being noteworthy in relative stature.

 

[Extinction]

I agree. Maybe “professionalism” doesn’t have the right range, and bureaucratic or administrative would get a little deeper? (Counterintuitive as that might be.)

It's a Byzantine administrative bureauocracy that works to sustain itself. Fighting doping has never been their true goal, but image management.

 

[madthebad]

Tadej is just a phenomenal athlete and probably the GOAT of cycling .Just get that into your head and stop with these ridiculous doping accusations which are based on nothing .

 

[dr.eve]

Tadej is just a phenomenal athlete and probably the GOAT of cycling .Just get that into your head and stop with these ridiculous doping accusations which are based on nothing .

What if we don't?

 

[Abedfo]

Tadej is just a phenomenal athlete and probably the GOAT of cycling .Just get that into your head and stop with these ridiculous doping accusations which are based on nothing .

If you bury your head in the sand much more you'll pop out of the ground somewhere in Australia. Why are you even here? I'm sure there is a Pogacar is the Goat circlejerk thread on the forums here somewhere, you'll feel right at home.

 

[thetdog666]

Tadej is just a phenomenal athlete and probably the GOAT of cycling .Just get that into your head and stop with these ridiculous doping accusations which are based on nothing .

You must be fishing with this comment . Either that or very gullible.

 

[kingjr]

Cycling globally is measureably less impactful than a host of sports, with Armstrong being noteworthy in relative stature.

The latter being the point that ashhutch made, right?

 

[peterfin]

Protected is maybe overstating it in my view, but they're definitely not trying all that hard to find anything.

I try to just assume people in cycling are neither especially corrupt or especially incorruptable, and just try to have a holistic view of how it would work if everyone is just self interested mostly.

Cycling has experienced that when it tries to do a better job policing itself, it only gets a worse reputation. In addition, 'demand' for antidoping and questions about doping are much more determined by whether the dominant champoins are well liked or not rather than if they're completely ridiculous or not.

Pogacar ticked so many boxes in his first years that made him very appealing for many casual fans so they bought in completely, and now that it's gotten ridiculous to the nth degree to the nth degree, it's too late to take that emotional investment back.

If it is too late to take that emotional investment back, I wonder how much active damage control is going on now to ensure nothing is exposed and the impression is given that the UCI has everything under control? The whole strategy and communication about motors seems to fit this picture. Most likely there is nothing at all going on but the show, including the useless checks using tablets, seems to fit in a strategy were they want to paint a picture of a clean sport.

 

[Red Rick]

If it is too late to take that emotional investment back, I wonder how much active damage control is going on now to ensure nothing is exposed and the impression is given that the UCI has everything under control? The whole strategy and communication about motors seems to fit this picture. Most likely there is nothing at all going on but the show, including the useless checks using tablets, seems to fit in a strategy were they want to paint a picture of a clean sport.

Everything makes so much more sense if all that *** is performative.

 

[Cookster15]

It's all fun and games until the viewership drops because people don't want to watch this absurdity any more. It's ridiculous. Merckx' 1969 season doesn't even come close.

None of this lets Pogi, UAE or Gianetti off the hook but objectivity is important. Merckx was still more ridiculous and there were none of the "methods" and sophistication around back then that we suspect today. I think blood doping had been tried but I haven't read anywhere that Merckx was into that or that blood doping was responsible for his records.

But I am glad there were no online cycling forums back then

Objectively Pogacar is still a long way short of Merckx best seasons. Below tables are from PCS. And according to a Google search 1969 wasn't Merckx best year - 1972 and 1974 were.

Also check how many racing kilometres and days Merckx was doing compared to what they are doing now (assuming Pog is typical for the top riders today):

Pogacar
2024​	9959 km in 58 days | PCS points: 4588 | UCI points: 11655
2025 (7-Oct)	8394 km in 49 days | PCS points: 4646 | UCI points: 10880
Merckx
1974​	15958 km in 93 days | PCS points: 5564
1973​	14655 km in 87 days | PCS points: 5707
1972​	14385 km in 80 days | PCS points: 6275
1969​	12145 km in 73 days | PCS points: 4734

 

[Extinction]

The latter being the point that ashhutch made, right?

Right, but now the focus is a recrudecence of "everbody was doped then," but cycling has "faught the war," so now everything is ***-dory. Nothing to see just trust us.

 

[peterfin]

None of this lets Pogi, UAE or Gianetti off the hook but objectivity is important. Merckx was still more ridiculous and there were none of the "methods" and sophistication around back then that we suspect today. I think blood doping had been tried but I haven't read anywhere that Merckx was into that or that blood doping was responsible for his records.

But I am glad there were no online cycling forums back then

Objectively Pogacar is still a long way short of Merckx best seasons. Below tables are from PCS. And according to a Google search 1969 wasn't Merckx best year - 1972 and 1974 were.

Also check how many racing kilometres and days Merckx was doing compared to what they are doing now (assuming Pog is typical for the top riders today):

Pogacar
2024​	9959 km in 58 days | PCS points: 4588 | UCI points: 11655
2025 (7-Oct)	8394 km in 49 days | PCS points: 4646 | UCI points: 10880
Merckx
1974​	15958 km in 93 days | PCS points: 5564
1973​	14655 km in 87 days | PCS points: 5707
1972​	14385 km in 80 days | PCS points: 6275
1969​	12145 km in 73 days | PCS points: 4734

In those days training was equal to racing so Merckx raced 1.5x as much.

I am not sure what you want to prove but in those days doping had indeed not the sophistication as it has today so it is more probable that Merckx indeed was a once in a 50 years outlier. We also should emphasize that the world was "smaller" back then and the average competitor was likeky not on the same level as it is today although also Merckx' eating and training habits were amateur level versus the current methods. On top of that, we have no data that can prove Merckx had similar insane climb records as Pogacar. This would also be difficult to compare as we need to correct for technology improvements and the amateur food/training level of that time (compared to what we have now). Merckx was also riding in a time where an all-round rider (sprint, TT, endurance, climbing) had more chances to win a GT versus somebody with insane watt/kg capabilities.

 

[Cookster15]

In those days training was equal to racing so Merckx raced 1.5x as much.

In those days training was equal to racing because sports science had not yet revealed it wasn't the best way to improve performance and recover. Yet Eddy Merckx still recovered from frequent racing to set those records.

Of course the level and level of competition is higher today, just as it is in every professional sport. My point is to attempt to inject some objectivity.

The OP started this thread after the 2020 La Planche des Belles Filles TT arguing Pogacar came out of nowhere. Well he was barely 20 years old when Gianetti brought him to UAE before the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir.

19 year old Paul Seixas is an extreme outlier. Science shows you cannot predict how good riders will become by their performances below the age of 20. Any observation of Junior Worlds that Pogacar competed in and those who beat him would also confirm that.

But we are not going to solve Gianetti in the Clinic. If that truly concerns us we should address concerns to the UCI or a journalist rather than expend our time, energy and frustrations here. Rival teams and sponsors also have the resources to do that.

 

[peterfin]

In those days training was equal to racing because sports science had not yet revealed it wasn't the best way to improve performance and recover. Yet Eddy Merckx still recovered from frequent racing to set those records.

Of course the level and level of competition is higher today, just as it is in every professional sport. My point is to attempt to inject some objectivity.

The OP started this thread after the 2020 La Planche des Belles Filles TT arguing Pogacar came out of nowhere. Well he was barely 20 years old when Gianetti brought him to UAE before the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir.

19 year old Paul Seixas is an extreme outlier. Science shows you cannot predict how good riders will become by their performances below the age of 20. Any observation of Junior Worlds that Pogacar competed in and those who beat him would also confirm that.

But we are not going to solve Gianetti in the Clinic. If that truly concerns us we should address concerns to the UCI or a journalist rather than expend our time, energy and frustrations here. Rival teams and sponsors also have the resources to do that.

It's not that easy. We gain nothing by addressing our concerns to people with vested interest in the sport. Also, with only a list of red flags and no hard evidence it is difficult to engage with third parties such as medical experts to give authority to doping use as it will be contested and countered by all legal options by an entity with no financial limits (UAE). Journalists with the financial means to thoroughly investigate and uncover clear evidence would be an option but currently it seems they are not involved in our sport. The other option is the police but they will only engage if there is a clear trace.

 

[Cookster15]

It's not that easy. We gain nothing by addressing our concerns to people with vested interest in the sport. Also, with only a list of red flags and no hard evidence it is difficult to engage with third parties such as medical experts to give authority to doping use as it will be contested and countered by all legal options by an entity with no financial limits (UAE). Journalists with the financial means to thoroughly investigate and uncover clear evidence would be an option but currently it seems they are not involved in our sport. The other option is the police but they will only engage if there is a clear trace.

I know it isn’t easy but there are many millions of Euros at stake - even in this sport.

I also mentioned rival teams and sponsors. They are losing for the same reason UAE are gaining. Red Bull are not short of resources look at what they spend on Formula One?

Journalists don’t have vested interests in the sport (ignoring possible unfair advantages).

The other matter is how well the biological passport is being utilised. I think lawyers have set the burden of proof too high. But this isn’t static in the courts.

As for contesting all legal means that would require doctors to give evidence which overrides evidence from the other qualified doctors such as those who are employed to enforce the bio passport system.

I am not convinced all this can be covered up indefinitely. Likewise use of motors which I struggle with. If it does blow up I hope those responsible have their getaway planned.

 

[aphronesis]

Even if it blows up, it won’t matter. Where is accountability and why or to what/which ends?

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

Pogacar ticked so many boxes in his first years that made him very appealing for many casual fans so they bought in completely, and now that it's gotten ridiculous to the nth degree to the nth degree, it's too late to take that emotional investment back.

Vingegaard must have ticked the box marked 'let's make the most boring rider in the peloton the unlikeliest Tour de France winner' on the UCI's to-do list

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

What if we don't?

None of this lets Pogi, UAE or Gianetti off the hook but objectivity is important. Merckx was still more ridiculous and there were none of the "methods" and sophistication around back then that we suspect today. I think blood doping had been tried but I haven't read anywhere that Merckx was into that or that blood doping was responsible for his records.

But I am glad there were no online cycling forums back then

Objectively Pogacar is still a long way short of Merckx best seasons. Below tables are from PCS. And according to a Google search 1969 wasn't Merckx best year - 1972 and 1974 were.

Also check how many racing kilometres and days Merckx was doing compared to what they are doing now (assuming Pog is typical for the top riders today):

Pogacar
2024​	9959 km in 58 days | PCS points: 4588 | UCI points: 11655
2025 (7-Oct)	8394 km in 49 days | PCS points: 4646 | UCI points: 10880
Merckx
1974​	15958 km in 93 days | PCS points: 5564
1973​	14655 km in 87 days | PCS points: 5707
1972​	14385 km in 80 days | PCS points: 6275
1969​	12145 km in 73 days | PCS points: 4734

Merckx was caught three times anyway.
Consider the opposition.
Many races looked more like a Belgian championship.
LBL 1969: 7 Belgians in top 20.
MSR: 1969: 6 Belgians in top 10.
Amstel 1969: top 7 (!): all Belgians and only two nationalities in top 20.
Omloop Het Volk 1972: 18 Belgians in top 20
Tour of Flanders: 9 Belgians in top 10.

Merckx basically rode against regional opposition.

I don't know how the km are relevant in this story. Considering most riders in Merckx era rode similar full programs, Pogacars domination is even more remarkable. There was very little specialization in the Merckx era.