Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[DONCA]

What should we be seeing?

We’re seeing an incredibly fast acceleration even though he was braking beforehand and not pedaling. Where is that acceleration coming from? It looks so unnatural.

And i know that you take the speed out of the corner even if you are braking but not like this.
It doesn´t look like the normal grip loss → grip regained

For me it looks like strong push coming out of nowhere.

After braking and not pedaling you normally lose speed or did he just invented a new drifting technique with whom you gain speed even if you brake.

 

[peterfin]

how is it possible that a sub 65kg like him can drop almost everyone on a flat course even without a lower ftp?

Insane recovery and aero would explain a lot but his position on the bike is actually not great at all.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

how is it possible that a sub 65kg like him can drop almost everyone on a flat course even without a lower ftp?

no one literally no one has any kind of explanations for this!

This might also be because he isn't a sub 65kg rider. Maybe in the Tour, but surely not in the classics.

 

[SorelyBoy]

We’re seeing an incredibly fast acceleration even though he was braking beforehand and not pedaling. Where is that acceleration coming from? It looks so unnatural.

And i know that you take the speed out of the corner even if you are braking but not like this.
It doesn´t look like the normal grip loss → grip regained

For me it looks like strong push coming out of nowhere.

After braking and not pedaling you normally lose speed or did he just invented a new drifting technique with whom you gain speed even if you brake.

I’ve seen others commenting on this elsewhere, specifically at last year’s race. Ultimately, for me, I just don’t understand how a small lightweight rider generates enough power over that type of terrain to even live with the likes of a Van Aert , a MVDP, a Pedersen, never mind actually compete to win the race. He shouldn’t be able to live with them on the flat. One more hilly terrain, maybe it gets competitive, but even there I’ve seen him doing things which just don’t look natural. As I’ve commented before, his accelerations look effortless and outright strange, instant power, little sign his body is pushing any additional energy through his legs. Factor in all the other empirical data, and there is something very very strange going on here.

 

[Gratemans]

I'm looking at Pog with just as much scepticism as a lot of people in this section, but that very short clip is some weak-ass evidence to me. It doesn't even look off.
I don't know where you see this "huge acceleration"? To me it looks exactly like the normal grip-loss -> grip regained. There are way more dubious clips than this one imo.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Insane recovery and aero would explain a lot but his position on the bike is actually not great at all.

Yes, his position in the bike is terrible from an aerodynamic perspective. Compare again to Wout on Sunday who was beautifully positioned, nice flat back, rigid core. Pogacar was presenting his chest straight into the wind. Perhaps he does that because he knows he can. But in this post marginal gains era, I’d expect that any decent coach would want him to improve that seated position.

 

[SorelyBoy]

We’re seeing an incredibly fast acceleration even though he was braking beforehand and not pedaling. Where is that acceleration coming from? It looks so unnatural.

And i know that you take the speed out of the corner even if you are braking but not like this.
It doesn´t look like the normal grip loss → grip regained

For me it looks like strong push coming out of nowhere.

After braking and not pedaling you normally lose speed or did he just invented a new drifting technique with whom you gain speed even if you brake.

Just watched it. Multiple times. That looks like a back wheel under its own power and spinning away at a much faster rate than the front wheel, despite the fact that Pogacar was obviously not peddling coming into and through that bend. It’s not because he was furiously peddling and the wheel is losing grip. No, he has already slowed into the corner and is letting his momentum take him through, his legs just holding position. Compare to Van Aert’s bike, same situation, similar line, not peddling also. The back wheel turns normally in synchronicity with the front as you would expect. What the hell is going on here?

 

[meat puppet]

If I understood right, Wva peak power during Pog auchy attack was about 1200w per Velon. Literally fighting the bike, on the saddle. Pog also must have been generating a similar wattage. No drafting and not a particularly aero position. But this with 8kg or so less muscle mass.

 

[Shakes]

Pogacar being best at classics and grand yours/climbing remains ridiculous. As that means he has the best w/kg for long climbs, highest absolute power for classics and highest 1m w/kg and absolute power.

Lance perhaps could have done it as he had very high absolute power but he didn't have anything resembling a spring. Historically you need more muscles for higher absolute power which is a drag on climbs. EPO offset some off that historically but Lance and Ullrich were also heavier than Pogacar is now. So it does not add up. You can't be the best in relative and absolute terms. Last time that happened was in 70s, never since.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Peopel dont understand meaning of word absolute power,lmaoo.you constantly hear absolute power wins on flat.NO,it doesnot and it never did.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Also on climbs there are many forms of watts per killo that makes you win plus recovery.in other words you can match my watts per killo,but i will still destroy you.enough of free lessions.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Peopel dont understand meaning of word absolute power,lmaoo.you constantly hear absolute power wins on flat.NO,it doesnot and it never did.

Precedence says otherwise. Physics says otherwise. With respect, name me the last small lightweight climber who was able to compete in the classics never mind Paris Roubaix. I mean, in terms of Paris Roubaix, do you know how many riders under 70 kg who were competitive at Paris–Roubaix? And the answer is: None. Zero. Not a single pure climber‑type lightweight has ever won or consistently contended at Paris–Roubaix. Pogacar is 66KG tops. He's 5 foot nine inches tall. Cycling wise, certainly as far as the classics are concerned, he's a midget without the weight and associated power to ride his bike over the terrain of Flanders and Northern France, and even compete. Let's take this analysis further and widen it out a bit.

Since cycling became highly specialised (mid‑1990s onward), how many riders with Pogačar’s physique — ~65–67 kg, climber‑type build — do you think have been able to even compete across the Spring Classics (wins or podiums)?

The answer is: Essentially none. Zero in Roubaix. One or two in Flanders. Nobody across the full Spring Classics range.
Across the full Spring Classics (Strade, MSR, Flanders, Roubaix, Ardennes)

How many riders of Pogačar’s physique have been competitive across the whole spring?

Zero. None. Nada. Zip. 0. Are you getting it?

No lightweight climber‑type rider has ever:

• won Strade
• podiumed Milan–San Remo
• won Flanders
• podiumed Roubaix
• AND been a contender in the Ardennes

Not one.

Even the best all‑rounders of the last 30 years — Bettini, Gilbert, Valverde — had clear limits (oh how I fondly remember those):

• Bettini: Ardennes + some Flanders ability, no Roubaix
• Gilbert: Ardennes + Flanders, no Roubaix
• Valverde: Ardennes only
• Rodríguez: Ardennes only
• Cunego: Ardennes only

None of them crossed the cobbled–climber divide.

So where does Pogačar sit in this 30‑year context? He is the only rider under 70 kg in the modern era to:

• win Flanders
• win Strade
• podium Milan–San Remo
• be competitive in Roubaix
• dominate the Ardennes
• win Monuments across all terrains

This is simply an historical record shows no precedent.

In 30 years of hyper‑specialised cycling, the number of riders with Pogačar’s physique who have been competitive across the Spring Classics is:
Zero. He is the first.

And it's all a lie.

 

[Red Rick]

If I understood right, Wva peak power during Pog auchy attack was about 1200w per Velon. Literally fighting the bike, on the saddle. Pog also must have been generating a similar wattage. No drafting and not a particularly aero position. But this with 8kg or so less muscle mass.

Van Aert had to accelerate very quickly when Pogacar came over the top. Pogacar didn't accelerate as hard, so he wouldn't have been hitting 1200 at all.

 

[BubbaChuck]

remco looks close,but he gets destroyed by pog.i would cry too.

 

[SHAD0W93]

[*]Gilbert: Ardennes + Flanders, no Roubaix
[*]Valverde: Ardennes only
None of them crossed the cobbled–climber divide.

So where does Pogačar sit in this 30‑year context? He is the only rider under 70 kg in the modern era to:

• win Flanders
• win Strade
• podium Milan–San Remo
• be competitive in Roubaix
• dominate the Ardennes
• win Monuments across all terrains

This is simply an historical record shows no precedent.

In 30 years of hyper‑specialised cycling, the number of riders with Pogačar’s physique who have been competitive across the Spring Classics is:
Zero. He is the first.

And it's all a lie.

Gilbert won Paris Roubaix
Valverde top 10’d Flanders and could have done it more times if he raced.

Gilbert was also the closest to competing in them all in the same year without Pogacar’s dominance.

 

[BubbaChuck]

And this conversations are looking more funny by the day with Seixas coming now.Soon its gonna be wrong page,lmao.Unlike Pog, Paul is dead serious,its not game for him.

 

[Red Rick]

Gilbert's versatility is the single most overrated thing in my days of watching cycling. He was competitive in Liege for like 2 years and after 2011 never again, won Lombardia in some of the worst fields and routes that race's had and won RVV and Roubaix because QS won those races almost by default in those days and his biggest rival there was frigging Van Avermaet who couldn't win 2 monuments in an era in which we saw a good amount of meme riders take them home instead.

 

[topcat]

Gilbert's versatility is the single most overrated thing in my days of watching cycling. He was competitive in Liege for like 2 years and after 2011 never again, won Lombardia in some of the worst fields and routes that race's had and won RVV and Roubaix because QS won those races almost by default in those days and his biggest rival there was frigging Van Avermaet who couldn't win 2 monuments in an era in which we saw a good amount of meme riders take them home instead.

I don't get any of this but it's beneath me to argue.

 

[peterfin]

Gilbert's late success were likely due to the weak field, indeed. Van Avermaet was never destined to be the classic rider he became, scoring top 5's early in his career but not much more, so he made most of his late career I guess and Sagan in his later years never matched his earlier dominance. Sky's TdF dominance in that era is also so weak in comparison to the current era, especially considering there was something going on in that team to boost their performance. It all makes Pogacar's current performance such an incredible outlier, even considering that the field is much stronger now and probably neither just due to 'marginal gains'.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Gilbert's versatility is the single most overrated thing in my days of watching cycling. He was competitive in Liege for like 2 years and after 2011 never again, won Lombardia in some of the worst fields and routes that race's had and won RVV and Roubaix because QS won those races almost by default in those days and his biggest rival there was frigging Van Avermaet who couldn't win 2 monuments in an era in which we saw a good amount of meme riders take them home instead.

Is he overrated or are you just severely underrating him due to the hype around his 2011 season?

Gilbert still won all of those monuments when others didn’t. He performed in those races.

Gilbert also finished top 10 in LBL and GDL the same amount of times as Purito, 1 more time in LBL than Nibali, and more times in both than Roglic (albeit a lot more attempts).

Quickstep
2010 0 monuments
2011 0 monuments
2012 2 monuments Boonen x2
2013 0 monuments
2014 1 monument Terpstra
2015 0 monuments
2016 0 monuments
2017 1 monument Gilbert
2018 2 monuments Terpstra and Jungels
2019 2 momuments Ala and Gilbert

Now what Quickstep was is very competitive in cobbled classics but only won 6 of them.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Gilbert won Paris Roubaix
Valverde top 10’d Flanders and could have done it more times if he raced.

Gilbert was also the closest to competing in them all in the same year without Pogacar’s dominance.

True, my bad, Gilbert was actually the archetypal classics rider in many ways, great palmares but certainly not a climber, and without much success in GC races bar the odd stage win. But the point stands. If we ask why the likes of Gilbert were so good at classics races, we see a guy who, although still relatively light at 69  to 70 kg was built “Classics muscle”: strong upper body, powerful core, high torque, and punchy acceleration. Pogačar’s 65-66 kg is what you get with a “GC climber”:narrow shoulders, minimal upper‑body mass, high cadence, low torque, built for long climbs, but surely not cobbles. I just can’t work out where he gets that power from to deploy on cobbles across northern France for example, and with that weight disadvantage, and which he seems to deploy without any apparent effort. It sure as hell doesnt appear to be coming from his legs. Whereas guys like Van Aert and MVDP, they have the physicality and you can absolutely see when they’re using it to the limit.

 

[Red Rick]

Is he overrated or are you just severely underrating him due to the hype around his 2011 season?

2011 annoys me less than the amount of talk about his versatility when his skillset and range of races was fairly narrow. It was exclusively 1 day races and a little bit of stage hunting, and the coverage in his 1 day racing was also somewhat split into different periods where he rarely did great in both in the same period of time.

 

[SHAD0W93]

2011 annoys me less than the amount of talk about his versatility when his skillset and range of races was fairly narrow. It was exclusively 1 day races and a little bit of stage hunting, and the coverage in his 1 day racing was also somewhat split into different periods where he rarely did great in both in the same period of time.

I don’t disagree on that but Gilbert is still the only one (that I know) since 2000s and definitely 2010s that had top 10’d every monument with a chance to win them all until MVDP and Pogacar. Then MVDP needs a lot of luck to go his way to win 2 of those. Not even factoring in Pogacar’s GC ability.

 

[Red Rick]

I don’t disagree on that but Gilbert is still the only one (that I know) since 2000s and definitely 2010s that had top 10’d every monument with a chance to win them all until MVDP and Pogacar. Then MVDP needs a lot of luck to go his way to win 2 of those. Not even factoring in Pogacar’s GC ability.

Van der Poels' range on the climby end is pretty similar to Gilbert, alhough Gilbert in the early days had more climbing chops.

I do think Van der Poel and Van Aert would absolutely thrive in 2010s Liege and pre 2015 Lombardia as well. I even think Van Aert could have won Lombardia had he raced in 2020 when the field was absurdly weak for a while.

 

[proffate]

Yes, his position in the bike is terrible from an aerodynamic perspective. Compare again to Wout on Sunday who was beautifully positioned, nice flat back, rigid core. Pogacar was presenting his chest straight into the wind. Perhaps he does that because he knows he can. But in this post marginal gains era, I’d expect that any decent coach would want him to improve that seated position.

aero is not that easy to eyeball. An 80kg rider will tend to be aero-ish, but Wout is really not exceptionally aero for his size, even by the eyeball approximation. His proportions are just not optimal --- legs too long especially the tibia.

Tadej being 15cm shorter and having 4cm narrower bars goes a long way. But he did get beat and even MVDP with his 44cm bars straight out of y2k looked to be stronger as well.

My mental model is that Wout barely has Pog beat in absolute watts of FTP, if at all. Something like 460-480w at 80 KG (6w/kg) vs 66*7 = 462w for Pog.

I believe Pog is pretty well optimized in terms of kit --- bike, handlebars, attire. His cranks are a nice modern 165mm which lets him keep his hip angle more open for longer periods. He seems capable of holding his position for very long efforts. But it's true that his proportions and pelvic tilt are not as exceptional as those of, say, Remco. I don't think that's something that is likely to be readily fixable without adopting some really radical "modern" position that approximates more of a TT setup, which comes with its own drawbacks. And apparently his setup is good enough to win basically every race on the calendar bar the flattest ones. I wouldn't sabotage what works well for the sake of this one race.