TDF 2012: Titans Collide. Dennis Menchov Versus Cadel Evans...possible rivalry.

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karlboss said:
If Sky was my team, I'd dedicate 1 man only to cavendish, and never attempt a leadout train, just work off the other teams' trains. Having said Cavendish is guaranteed wins, Wiggins is the gamble.

True with the last part but it is the whole aim of their team.

EBH can support both Wiggins/ Cav so Eisel also deserves to go ( if only for the fact Cav is WC and deserves at least some say/ support ).

If Wiggins wins Dauphinie again I think Cav will only have the 1 teammate.
 
Archibald said:
wasn't that what was being touted about schlecklet last year?

WHo was saying that about Schleck?

Schleck can beat Contador, and if Contador gets injured or crashes in any of the next 3 or 4 tdfs he will be the favourite.

Wiggins meanwhile cant beat Contador and only a super light courser like 2012 is suited to him.
 

airstream

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The Hitch said:
WHo was saying that about Schleck?

Schleck can beat Contador, and if Contador gets injured or crashes in any of the next 3 or 4 tdfs he will be the favourite.

Wiggins meanwhile cant beat Contador and only a super light courser like 2012 is suited to him.

Contador beat Schleck so long ago buddy that hard to believe in your words.. :p
 
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Half way through the pages at no.9. Wow, just wow. Some major Wigans d$#% riding going on here Hop off the mans nuts for a second and be objective. Sheesh, pommie fandom is running amok around here. Though kudos for your aggressive man love.

In what world is Wigans a higher favourite than Cadel Evans? Or Dennis Menchov? Let alone he compare to Vincenzo Nibali? All these men have cajones. Big ones. They've taken on giants in the world of cycling and beaten them. Wigans biggest wins were in races most top GC riders used as training runs. Wigans barely beat these guys who were out for training rides. He's failed at every GT marking. The running joke around here in 2010 was that he'd bonk out. Guess where he finished when the big boys turned the speed up? Next to Lance. Now you may say he finished near Evans...but did he ever wear yellow? Did he crash and brake a bone in his arm? Nah that was the next year he crashed.

Evaluating a rider is simple. You look at their strengths, the parcours and how their major opposition rides and whether they all went full out. Wigans has NEVER done the later in a GT and beaten his competition. They have ALWAYS smoked him. Especially in the mountains. He lost big time. Granted I will complement the man and acknowledge he has improved since 2010, but he has never shown the potential these other men have and delivered upon.

Why? Take Evans for example. He was forced to ride the 2010 Giro and have an early season so BMC could get a Tour invite. Evans was in yellow when the day he crashed. He'd arguably have podiumed that race. Right near Menchov. I say this because the way that race had unfolded till the 8th stage was exactly how the 2011 Tour unfolded. Only difference was Evan was on fire every race in 2011 because he was no longer forced to race so BMC go invites. Basically his focus was meticulous and thus his success. I knew he'd win the 2011 Tour with a week to go. He hadn't stuffed up all year. Never happened before. That's what he needed to win...that change.

Menchov has done this as well when he won an amazing Giro in 2009. Anyone remember the guys he beat that year? They were riding on a level in the mountains Wigans has never ever hit. SO in theory, if Menchov dots his 'i' and crosses his 't' he can always deliver again. Riding for Geox in 2011 wasn't right for this to happen. Also Menchov had many 'financial' issues relating to some nasty stuff teetering over his head. His focus was off. But the man has delivered. You don't win 3 GT's by accident. I've always said he and Evans are almost identical. Very good sluggers in the mountains and brilliant chronos. Menchov when he doesn't fall is a super danger to every GC rider. As far as I am concerned, if they turn up prepared, one of them will win the Tour and I don't care which. They are all round brilliant riders. Wigans is a ITT specialist who lost weight. He hasn't proven himself against opposition in the Tour in the mountains. He will not put much time into Evans or Menchov in a chrono to mitigate the time he'd lose climbing.

Then there is Nibali, and that man has some major cajones. One of the few riders willing to mix it up with Contador in last years Giro. Amazing descender and from the first few pages of this thread I noted two mountain stages end in descents. Nibali will take time here on someone big. Only guys who can stick with him? Samu and Evans...Valverde maybe, but I don't know if he's riding. Maybe people forgot where Menchov's 2008 Tour came unstuck? He lost 50 seconds on a descent and when he attacked uphill he fell off. Wigans and Schleck don't stand a chance on these days if Nibali attacks. Nibali is a very. very strong rider. He's better than Wigans. His record says he is better.

Then there is Samu. I'm not too sure. He's been kind of meh the last year and a half. But definitely a threat. Could podium. Andy Schleck? Guy still hasn't learnt. He'll podium if he's super lucky. Sure Wigans can podium, but he won't win unless he's learnt how to climb (which is a clinic issue). So enough on that. Jurgen van den Broecke is as much a chance of winning as Wigans IMO. Jurgen actually attacks. You see, Evans last year on Alpe d'Huez paced the Schlecks and was their equal. Andy Schleck whom is lauded on here by some as a climbing titan. Has Wigans ever done this? Menchov has multiple times. Nibali has also shown impeccable climbing duress and ability to pace himself. Wigans however when I've observed him is always on the edge about to crack. Has moments where he looks good, but honestly everyone around him is good as well. It's that ability to tough it out, turn it up a notch when people are cracking that win you a GT. Brad hasn't done this yet. If he had, last years paltry Vuelta would have been a walk in the park. Couldn't even beat his team mate.

So please, stop disrespecting the guys who have won GT's. Guys whose palmares are magnificent when contrast to Bradley Wiggins. Wiggins will do well, but he won't win the Tour. Top 5 IMOm potential 3rd if all the Stars align and divine providence shines down on him. Somewhere near JVDB and Samu fighting amongst themselves is my guess. The three guys I mentioned at the top will be fighting for the win, ASSUMING of course, no incidents (they always seem to mess someone up)...who knows if Andy Schleck will turn up.

Oh and if it is too much to ask, can people please stop the running jokes about Bottle and Horner. Neither of those guys can crack the top 5 at their age. Tenth will be a major victory for either, which recent history suggest is most likely. Personally I'd like to see Roland or Voeckler make the podium.
 
Evans paced Schleck up Alpe? Why was he waving his hand when the Schlecks asked him to take a pull then?

You can argue that Evans is a all round better rider than the Andy, he clearly is but to say he is an equal climber to Schleck, based on staying in a group which wasnt going that fast, where Schleck had been in a break for 60k, that came after a stage where he did a solo for 60k, its a bit pushing it.

Btw thomas de gendt finished with Evans and Schleck on that stage. is he as good a climber as Andy too?
 
Mar 12, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
Half way through the pages at no.9. Wow, just wow. Some major Wigans d$#% riding going on here Hop off the mans nuts for a second and be objective. Sheesh, pommie fandom is running amok around here. Though kudos for your aggressive man love.

In what world is Wigans a higher favourite than Cadel Evans? Or Dennis Menchov? Let alone he compare to Vincenzo Nibali? All these men have cajones. Big ones. They've taken on giants in the world of cycling and beaten them. Wigans biggest wins were in races most top GC riders used as training runs. Wigans barely beat these guys who were out for training rides. He's failed at every GT marking. The running joke around here in 2010 was that he'd bonk out. Guess where he finished when the big boys turned the speed up? Next to Lance. Now you may say he finished near Evans...but did he ever wear yellow? Did he crash and brake a bone in his arm? Nah that was the next year he crashed.

Evaluating a rider is simple. You look at their strengths, the parcours and how their major opposition rides and whether they all went full out. Wigans has NEVER done the later in a GT and beaten his competition. They have ALWAYS smoked him. Especially in the mountains. He lost big time. Granted I will complement the man and acknowledge he has improved since 2010, but he has never shown the potential these other men have and delivered upon.

Why? Take Evans for example. He was forced to ride the 2010 Giro and have an early season so BMC could get a Tour invite. Evans was in yellow when the day he crashed. He'd arguably have podiumed that race. Right near Menchov. I say this because the way that race had unfolded till the 8th stage was exactly how the 2011 Tour unfolded. Only difference was Evan was on fire every race in 2011 because he was no longer forced to race so BMC go invites. Basically his focus was meticulous and thus his success. I knew he'd win the 2011 Tour with a week to go. He hadn't stuffed up all year. Never happened before. That's what he needed to win...that change.

Menchov has done this as well when he won an amazing Giro in 2009. Anyone remember the guys he beat that year? They were riding on a level in the mountains Wigans has never ever hit. SO in theory, if Menchov dots his 'i' and crosses his 't' he can always deliver again. Riding for Geox in 2011 wasn't right for this to happen. Also Menchov had many 'financial' issues relating to some nasty stuff teetering over his head. His focus was off. But the man has delivered. You don't win 3 GT's by accident. I've always said he and Evans are almost identical. Very good sluggers in the mountains and brilliant chronos. Menchov when he doesn't fall is a super danger to every GC rider. As far as I am concerned, if they turn up prepared, one of them will win the Tour and I don't care which. They are all round brilliant riders. Wigans is a ITT specialist who lost weight. He hasn't proven himself against opposition in the Tour in the mountains. He will not put much time into Evans or Menchov in a chrono to mitigate the time he'd lose climbing.

Then there is Nibali, and that man has some major cajones. One of the few riders willing to mix it up with Contador in last years Giro. Amazing descender and from the first few pages of this thread I noted two mountain stages end in descents. Nibali will take time here on someone big. Only guys who can stick with him? Samu and Evans...Valverde maybe, but I don't know if he's riding. Maybe people forgot where Menchov's 2008 Tour came unstuck? He lost 50 seconds on a descent and when he attacked uphill he fell off. Wigans and Schleck don't stand a chance on these days if Nibali attacks. Nibali is a very. very strong rider. He's better than Wigans. His record says he is better.

Then there is Samu. I'm not too sure. He's been kind of meh the last year and a half. But definitely a threat. Could podium. Andy Schleck? Guy still hasn't learnt. He'll podium if he's super lucky. Sure Wigans can podium, but he won't win unless he's learnt how to climb (which is a clinic issue). So enough on that. Jurgen van den Broecke is as much a chance of winning as Wigans IMO. Jurgen actually attacks. You see, Evans last year on Alpe d'Huez paced the Schlecks and was their equal. Andy Schleck whom is lauded on here by some as a climbing titan. Has Wigans ever done this? Menchov has multiple times. Nibali has also shown impeccable climbing duress and ability to pace himself. Wigans however when I've observed him is always on the edge about to crack. Has moments where he looks good, but honestly everyone around him is good as well. It's that ability to tough it out, turn it up a notch when people are cracking that win you a GT. Brad hasn't done this yet. If he had, last years paltry Vuelta would have been a walk in the park. Couldn't even beat his team mate.

So please, stop disrespecting the guys who have won GT's. Guys whose palmares are magnificent when contrast to Bradley Wiggins. Wiggins will do well, but he won't win the Tour. Top 5 IMOm potential 3rd if all the Stars align and divine providence shines down on him. Somewhere near JVDB and Samu fighting amongst themselves is my guess. The three guys I mentioned at the top will be fighting for the win, ASSUMING of course, no incidents (they always seem to mess someone up)...who knows if Andy Schleck will turn up.

Oh and if it is too much to ask, can people please stop the running jokes about Bottle and Horner. Neither of those guys can crack the top 5 at their age. Tenth will be a major victory for either, which recent history suggest is most likely. Personally I'd like to see Roland or Voeckler make the podium.

That's just like reading an Aussie cricket journalist before the last ashes series.
 
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hatcher said:
Come on, now. If we're going to start cherry picking stages, and throwing out all context, then we have Menchov losing over a minute in the Vuelta TT to Wiggins + Froome; Evans losing 1:10 to Wiggins in the Dauphine TT, 15 seconds to Wiggins on the the climb Rodriguez won (and Samu losing nearly 2 minutes 30!); Anton, Rodriguez, Nibali, VdB etc all losing time to Wiggins on other climbs in the Vuelta.

If you really want to go back to 2009 to bring up one stage, you should also bring up Wiggins putting 18 minutes into Menchov and 26 into Evans on that very same stage; plus 6 minutes into Menchov up Verbier, plus 1:30 into Evans, Kloden, Armstrong. And on and on.

With context, Rodriguez was already 4 minutes down on Wiggins at that point, and not a danger.

With context, Menchov also lost 48 seconds to Cobo on the Angliru, and only gained 30 seconds on a near-dead, in-agony Wiggins, whilst Menchov himself was - we are constantly reminded - only just reaching his peak in the third week.

With context, 2009 was Wiggins first ever attempt at a GC, and he did a heck of a lot better than Evans and Menchov.

In other words, what a pointless exercise.

You are a raving lunatic. Get your numbers right champ. Verbier 2009, Contador put 42 seconds from memory into Andy Schleck who was second. Wigans was less than 20 seconds in front of Evans, LA and Kloden...oen of whom who had major issues that race and the other was a super domestique. Did you forget how bad Wigans was in the 2010 Giro? Yeah he was really trying there. Or perhaps the 2010 Tour? Context and balance are pleasantries for you are they not? Your perspective is skewed. You're seeing what you want to see and distorting known numbers for climbs.

Wigans didn't beat any major opposition who were in form on Verbier or any climb at any GT he has raced. When he was in form and other riders were as well, he has always been shown up. To win the Tour he has to reverse this. Menchov and Evans both have, hence they have won GT's. Wigans....nope, just the Dauphine, a race he flogged himself to win and his rivals you conveniently failed to note used as a meagre training ride. Oh and they then won the Tour. When the serious racing has taken place, he hasn't beaten anyone of note on any occasion. He's done well, but when looking at the whole picture and applying all the variable and considering all aspects, perspective says he is lacking that winning edge. Gosh, if Andy Schleck and team try hard turn up with their heads screwed on properly Wigans and Sky could be seriously railed in the mountains. They have nobody who can match what those men can throw out if they get their act together.

Get back to me when he delivers on his potential...I won't hold my breath. The biggest tell will be how he races the Dauphine. If Wigans wins it, he's peaked too early. Guarantee he won't win. Just like Bottle and Horner last year. Obvious they didn't have enough left...go ask people in the Clinic about that one.
 
airstream said:
Although, I'm sure Nibali can beat in TT only Gesink and Rolland among the main contenders.

Are you really sure of this?
headtoheadgesinknibbs.png

ofcourse skip the TTT's (so 5-3). But still, it isn't even certain Nibali would beat Gesink. Although Gesink has been crappy this year all around (or actually, only his TT has been decent so far).
 
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Galic Ho said:
You are a raving lunatic. Get your numbers right champ. Verbier 2009, Contador put 42 seconds from memory into Andy Schleck who was second. Wigans was less than 20 seconds in front of Evans, LA and Kloden...oen of whom who had major issues that race and the other was a super domestique. Did you forget how bad Wigans was in the 2010 Giro? Yeah he was really trying there. Or perhaps the 2010 Tour? Context and balance are pleasantries for you are they not? Your perspective is skewed. You're seeing what you want to see and distorting known numbers for climbs.

Wigans didn't beat any major opposition who were in form on Verbier or any climb at any GT he has raced. When he was in form and other riders were as well, he has always been shown up. To win the Tour he has to reverse this. Menchov and Evans both have, hence they have won GT's. Wigans....nope, just the Dauphine, a race he flogged himself to win and his rivals you conveniently failed to note used as a meagre training ride. Oh and they then won the Tour. When the serious racing has taken place, he hasn't beaten anyone of note on any occasion. He's done well, but when looking at the whole picture and applying all the variable and considering all aspects, perspective says he is lacking that winning edge. Gosh, if Andy Schleck and team try hard turn up with their heads screwed on properly Wigans and Sky could be seriously railed in the mountains. They have nobody who can match what those men can throw out if they get their act together.

Get back to me when he delivers on his potential...I won't hold my breath. The biggest tell will be how he races the Dauphine. If Wigans wins it, he's peaked too early. Guarantee he won't win. Just like Bottle and Horner last year. Obvious they didn't have enough left...go ask people in the Clinic about that one.

Are you a politician?
 
If I were Andy, i would go crazy on toussuire stage to eleminate a few people (maybe remove one or two of Wiggins,Evans,Menchov which will take huge time on time trials) and he will try something on peyragudes too

There are two downhill finishes, are those technical descents?
 
Jul 24, 2010
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Galic Ho said:
You are a raving lunatic. Get your numbers right champ. Verbier 2009, Contador put 42 seconds from memory into Andy Schleck who was second. Wigans was less than 20 seconds in front of Evans, LA and Kloden...oen of whom who had major issues that race and the other was a super domestique. Did you forget how bad Wigans was in the 2010 Giro? Yeah he was really trying there. Or perhaps the 2010 Tour? Context and balance are pleasantries for you are they not? Your perspective is skewed. You're seeing what you want to see and distorting known numbers for climbs.

Wigans didn't beat any major opposition who were in form on Verbier or any climb at any GT he has raced. When he was in form and other riders were as well, he has always been shown up. To win the Tour he has to reverse this. Menchov and Evans both have, hence they have won GT's. Wigans....nope, just the Dauphine, a race he flogged himself to win and his rivals you conveniently failed to note used as a meagre training ride. Oh and they then won the Tour. When the serious racing has taken place, he hasn't beaten anyone of note on any occasion. He's done well, but when looking at the whole picture and applying all the variable and considering all aspects, perspective says he is lacking that winning edge. Gosh, if Andy Schleck and team try hard turn up with their heads screwed on properly Wigans and Sky could be seriously railed in the mountains. They have nobody who can match what those men can throw out if they get their act together.

Get back to me when he delivers on his potential...I won't hold my breath. The biggest tell will be how he races the Dauphine. If Wigans wins it, he's peaked too early. Guarantee he won't win. Just like Bottle and Horner last year. Obvious they didn't have enough left...go ask people in the Clinic about that one.

Bit pointless for me to argue with you when your position states if Wiggins beats someone it's because they're not on form, but when they beat Wiggins it's because they are better.

Tedious circular reasoning.

And good job trampling all over your argument by pointing out the one inaccuracy in the list (Wiggins ONLY beat Evans, Armstrong, Kloden by 20 or so seconds up Verbier!). In your world that means Evans got 7th up Verbier despite being off form.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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stefrees said:
That's just like reading an Aussie cricket journalist before the last ashes series.

The Australian cricket team suck. That's an Aussies honest opinion. Take the team from 2001-2004 however...now contrast with England's best over the last 20 years. They'd lose every test. Every test. Heck the ashes win in 2005...last test final man out...Michael Kasprowicz wasn't out. How many runs did we lose by? That's right less than five. England were gifted an Ashes win by a bad umpire call. Oh and they all received medals from the Queen. How quaint and nice. Knighthoods! Yay! Maybe you can crack a fat when the Plastic Brits bring home some medals hey in the chavtastic Olympics!!! Gotta love pommie fanboys. Always good to get a rise out of...but of course, you're not a Wiggins Sky fanboy are you? Oh, hate to burst your bubble champ, Sky is owned by an Aussie and his company that started in the Land Down Under...lest we forget.

Oh and Hitch...don't think I don't know what you were doing.:D You spend so much time on here and yet for someone supposedly so informed, at times you can act so daft. Still living in the UK? Perhaps the English air is getting to you? Perhaps a holiday is Spain is a good idea? :)

Now where were we... 2008 Alpe d'Huez versus 2011 Alpe d'Huez. Contrast each year. Repeat. Look at times. Sheesh dude it's clear as day. Evans time was about the same both years in his ascent. Difference was his performance overall and the competition. Hence the contrast...it gives perspective. That's why he won. Fastest time last year was over a minute slower than Sastre's time. Now observe all his major opposition during both years and how they raced throughout the race.

That's also why Andy Schleck had one super day last year and on that day Evans pulled an entire peloton up the hill after Andy. Andy's form was better in previous years and was questioned on every thread on the forum last year during the Tour. Evans actually improved. He normally had a bad day that cost him precious time. It was obvious he'd win the Tour after Alpe. Franck was crying at the finish, he knew they'd lost the race. That's because the dynamics from previous years changed. Evans learnt what he needed to fix, Schleck however has not. Nor has Wiggins shown he has learnt and improved where it's needed as well. As for Evans riding when the whole peloton was after Andy the day before...Franck did what? Put a few seconds into Cadel at the end. Only rider who could. Hardly convincing evidence of superiority.

The hand waving...that was simple and easily understandable. Andy wanted Cadel to do what he did in 2008 and try and chase the guys up front. It was a bluff. Difference was, AC and Samu weren't going to win the Tour. Cadel knew this, knew how strong Andy was in relation to himself and said no. I thought it was hilarious. Big tell. Massive psychological tell. Evans read him like an open book and thus the bluff, although a ploy, amounted to nothing. Contador in Giro form would have looked at Cadel and just rode straight past him. he'd offer no hand gesture. Andy wanted the leader on the road to act irrationally and hopefully blow...as he's done in the past.

That right there was the very thing people had been alluding to about Andy Schleck on this forum. That winning edge and having it in spades and knowing when to deliver. The imperative to read your opponent and know what to do. He was clasping straws right then and the reaction of both Schlecks at the stage end proves this. They knew they'd lost. Every action on the road is revealing to a degree. So in essence, the pace up Alpe d'Huez by the first three riders into Paris, was set by Evans because the Schlecks went at the same place. They all finished together. Contrast with 2008. Big difference. Superior one year, equal the other. I'd happily wager Cadel could have gone faster last year judging by how much energy he had in his chrono afterwards. He simply didn't need to. Marked his man, went same pace, beat him. All parties knew who won that day.

That's how you win a GT. That's what I was alluding to. It's why some guys if they turn up and are in form, are naturally favourites. Wiggins isn't one of them. Until you show you can, then you shouldn't be lauded by cycling fans as a big favourite. Wiggins is an outsider. A very, very big outsider. Oh and if you want to imply a rider having one good day is a sign they are amazing, who was it who finished in front of your boy Samu and AC? Blew straight past them both on Alpe. He's not a superior climber, but taking outright effort over that specific stages early terrain, entire race and recent prior races, it's understandable both Spaniards failed to win on one of the most iconic finishes in cycling. Plenty of riders finish stages alongside favourites, or in front of them. Doesn't make them equal in skill for that terrain. It's about consistency over time. Cadel won last year because he was the most consistent rider. I'd even go as far to say Cadel was on par with Andy climbing. First week he was definitely superior. Heck Thor Hushovd was superior to Andy. That's what makes cycling so dynamic and interesting to watch. People's form and seeing how they peak. The ups and the downs. The drama and tension on the road.

Now what would have happened if Andy didn't dance off after Alberto earlier on the stage to Alpe d'Huez? I'd think he'd have had some more energy left, but it wouldn't have mattered. Also consider Voeckler. If he'd have dropped back with Evans, he would definitely have made the podium. I have no doubt he lost too much time on Alpe d'Huez because of his earlier actions trying to chase on his own AC and Andy.

For what it is worth, Samu is a big chance for doing well this year. More so than Wiggins. Definite podium material.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Oh man if Wiggins wins it will be ****ing hilarious!!!

Seriously cannot wait for July. Only a blind hater would doubt that Wiggins has a BIG BIG chance this year.
 
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The Cobra said:
Oh man if Wiggins wins it will be ****ing hilarious!!!

Seriously cannot wait for July. Only a blind hater would doubt that Wiggins has a BIG BIG chance this year.

Statement that can be easily counter acted with "only a blind fan-boy would think that Wiggins has a BIG BIG chance this year". Anyway, we do have to wait till July to really see who is right
 
Aug 12, 2009
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stefrees said:
Are you a politician?

In Australia right now? Hell no. I loath our Federal Govt. Worst one in history. Worst Prime Minister in History. Ironically the last time their opposition were in power (2007) the best govt in living memory and PM we've ever had were voted out for a bunch of muppets.

I'll sum up Australian politics by talking about our current Treasurer, Wayne Swan. Man couldn't organise a chook raffle in a pub. Holds the most powerful postion in the country. Succeeded the greatest Treasurer our country has ever had, Peter Costello, of whom he isn't worth to like the boots of. Wayne Swan uses his fingers and toes to do simple arithmetic, he is that stupid. Weirdly enough can you guess who won the Global award for best 'Treasurer' in 2011 of all developed nations? Man is an economic vandal and yet he still looks good compared to other countries. That's perspective for you....:p

When I went to Canberra in year 6, our political and national Capital, I did recieve the Paul Keating award (former PM)...for blabbing on in a debate about junk food in schools. I can see where you're coming from.:)
 
Aug 12, 2009
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The Cobra said:
Oh man if Wiggins wins it will be ****ing hilarious!!!

Seriously cannot wait for July. Only a blind hater would doubt that Wiggins has a BIG BIG chance this year.

It'll be even funnier if a team mate beats him. Rogers racing? How about Froome? Gosh, what about Richie Porte? Now that would be rich. :p

Sky have a solid gold winner, goes by the nickname Frodo. Cav should have the entire backing of the team. Tell Brad, he can always take on Contador in the Vuelta when the Tour doesn't go to shape. See how his climbing legs go there against a guy who can time trial and beat the world champion at the time in the decisive Tour chrono.:eek: Brad should have been focusing on the Olympics, something he has a proven record in. Oh, but then that would mean his super inflated salary wouldn't be justifiable...my bad. Of course, focus on the thing you dream about and have never shown form for which one can rationally consider you winning. Ricco has about as much chance of having that 12 year ban being overturned as Bradley Wiggins has of winning the Tour. It'd take a miracle. Namely every major rival crashing out. Not going to happen.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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hatcher said:
Half the peloton didn't beat Evans up Verbier, 6 did. One of them was Wiggins.

The big deal was the most spectacular stage of any Tour since 2007, you thought Wiggins pulled 90 seconds over 8km on his rivals. Big names. Evans, Kloden and Armstrong. Evans was a basket case in 2009. He was off form. Massive issues were unfolding at Lotto. Take a few days later, Evans was riding with the Groupetto. The Autobus. Perhaps you forgot this? Or how about what Kloden and Armstong did on stage 17?

IMO, Wiggins best form was in 2009 in a GT. Ironically and sadly it's been noted for a very long time round this forum, 2009 involved a lot of soft pedalling for Armstrongs benefit. Hence Wiggins less than impressive 2010 and also by merit Armstrong. Yes he has improved, quite a lot. But what is your aim as a rider? Your preparation? Then compare to your rivals. Winning the Dauphine ahead of Cadel showed nothing. It was very clear Cadel was aiming for the Tour last year. Every race he had to show form he did and naturally he won. Cadel learnt that very vital thing needed to back his evident talent. Timing. You get it wrong on a stage and worse, throughout a season, you can leave with nothing. Evans had the form in 2010, but his timing was off because he had to race events for the team to get invites. Events he eliminated in 2011 and thus received his due reward...he won a lot of big races.

Wiggins would be best served building up to the Tour, not winning Paris Nice and the Dauphine BECAUSE he hasn't ever dazzled at the Tour when it was his major objective. Normally I would say race hard, go for broke, especially with Andy Schleck, but Wiggins doesn't have a shred of the overall talent Andy has. He has a portion in one category. A portion that only comes into play with a parcours like this years. That's not a strength you can bank a win on. You still have to make up the difference in the other field. One cannot sit on blindly and think they can get lucky and not improve their weak spot simply because some extra ITT km's get thrown in. Doesn't happen. Unless Wiggins climbing improves by a major factor, I mean to the degree Cobo improved last year, he won't win the Tour.

That's not picking on him. Certainly not saying he didn't deserve his wins in other races, but quantifying them in relation to his rivals efforts shows one thing. He's not favourite, no manner of wins before hand can conclude that he will reverse history. I don't think he is even warranted an assumed podium spot. God help him if Basso or Scarponi were at the Tour.
 
El Pistolero said:
Tells you all you need to know about that climb doesn't it. ;)

Not really. I expect Evans to beat Wiggins on a short climb. I expect Evans to beat Wiggins on a long climb. Id expect Evans to beat Wiggins in a sprint at the end of a climb.

So what does Wiggins beating Evans on the climb tell me? Was it a tt?