TdF TTT - GC winners & losers

[ferryman]

From CN front page, Euskaltel name their TDF squad and Galdeano is getting the boys together for some TTT training:

"Sánchez will be supported by Egoi Martínez, Gorka Verdugo, Amets Txurruka, Rubén Pérez, Iván Velasco, Alan Pérez, Pablo Urtasun and Gorka Izagirre. These last three are riding the Tour de France for the first time."

"To prepare for the stage two team time trial, the Euskaltel-Euskadi riders will gather in Vitoria on Wednesday for special time trial training under Gonzalez de Galdeano’s watchful eye."

I'm not so familiar with some of these guys but I do fear the worst for Samu in the TTT.

 

[luckyboy]

Will be sad to see Euskaltel losing a load of time.

 

[The Hitch]

Probably if you had a poll on the website of Het Laatste Nieuws asking "will Jurgen VDB finish on the Tour podium" you'd get the same results. I doubt anyone really thinks Gesink will make the podium, even more so among Dutch cycling followers. Maybe it's what people wish, not what they think will happen.

Unlike the picture usually painted in the Belgian press about Dutch chauvinism and all that, the Dutch are usually overly critical of their sportsmen. Sports heroes don't exist in this country, Gesink is no exception.

Come on Dutchies hero worship the footballers many other Western European countries . Millions turned out to catch a glimpse of what these gods look like on that boat parade even after they LOST the final.

Also, whatyamean no one thinks Gesink will podium. Our good friend has that bet with ACF that he will have a ACF avatar for a year if Gesink DOESNT podium.

Who do YOU think will podium then?

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

By the way I also think you're being overly negative about Gesinks podium chances. Or that only Dutchies think that.

I watch on international cycling sites and forums and many seem to think he can podium

Like Hitch said, he's been overhyped in parts of the cycling world.

Not in Flanders, though, for obvious reasons.

 

[benpounder]

"To prepare for the stage two team time trial, the Euskaltel-Euskadi riders will gather in Vitoria on Wednesday for special time trial training under Gonzalez de Galdeano’s watchful eye."

At least they have a coach who knows something about TT's.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Like Hitch said, he's been overhyped in parts of the cycling world.

Not in Flanders, though, for obvious reasons.

I don't think he's overhyped.
He would have if people think he can beat Contador and Andy.

The others he has all beaten before in other stage-races. And many also in a Grand Tour. So what's the overhype? It would not be shocking if Gesink beat Basso and Evans, he was already doing that in the Vuelta 2009 up until the final mountainstage where he had to ride with a huge hole in his knee.
It wouldn't be a shock that he beats Samuel Sanchez. It wouldn't be a shock that he'd beat Vandenbroeck, Leipheimer and Klöden.

So where's the overhype?

 

[boomcie]

I don't think he's overhyped.
He would have if people think he can beat Contador and Andy.

The others he has all beaten before in other stage-races. And many also in a Grand Tour. So what's the overhype? It would not be shocking if Gesink beat Basso and Evans, he was already doing that in the Vuelta 2009 up until the final mountainstage where he had to ride with a huge hole in his knee.
It wouldn't be a shock that he beats Samuel Sanchez. It wouldn't be a shock that he'd beat Vandenbroeck, Leipheimer and Klöden.

So where's the overhype?

If you're breaking up everything into duels, you take away most of the shocking value.

Basso, Evans, Leipheimer, Klöden, VDB2, Schleck sr., Sanchez, Horner... can all beat Gesink. Nobody would be overly shocked about that either. That podium spot will be hard earned.

 

[Spine Concept]

If you're breaking up everything into duels, you take away most of the shocking value.

Basso, Evans, Leipheimer, Klöden, VDB2, Schleck sr., Sanchez, Horner... can all beat Gesink. Nobody would be overly shocked about that either. That podium spot will be hard earned.

Sure, but that's beside the point now isn't it? D_T was contesting the notion that Gesink beating the aforementioned is deemed over-hype. Nothing more nothing less. Unless of course you share that view.

 

[cineteq]

I don't think he's overhyped.
He would have if people think he can beat Contador and Andy.

If anything, the only over-hyped rider mentioned here is A. Schleck.

Gesink will podium this TdF, actually I predict he will be ahead of Andy when the TdF finishes...

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

If you're breaking up everything into duels, you take away most of the shocking value.

Basso, Evans, Leipheimer, Klöden, VDB2, Schleck sr., Sanchez, Horner... can all beat Gesink. Nobody would be overly shocked about that either. That podium spot will be hard earned.

I really don't rate Leipheimer, Horner and Klöden as top 5 candidates even, btw.

I do not believe they are at the same level as a top Gesink, F.Schleck, VDB2, Basso, S. Sanchez and Evans

 

[The Hitch]

If anything, the only over-hyped rider mentioned here is A. Schleck.

Gesink will podium this TdF, actually I predict he will be ahead of Andy when the TdF finishes...

Andy overhyped?

Hows that work?

I really don't rate Leipheimer, Horner and Klöden as top 5 candidates even, btw.

I do not believe they are at the same level as a top Gesink, F.Schleck, VDB2, Basso, S. Sanchez and Evans

You rate Frank Schleck?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

well, at the under-level of the top 5 candidates yeah, if 2/3 others fail

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Belgian press refuses to acknowledge anything good a Dutch person does, just listen to Wuijts and other Sporza commentators. Or the Sporza article on the Collet D'Allevard, saying Vino did the first attack while Gesink did the first. When Gesink finished second he was not even mentioned.

Just some small examples.

It must have been my imagination when they explicitely started rooting for Kruiswijck during the Giro. Or during the TdS for that matter, idem for Molema. Jeez, here i was thinking it were the Belgians (Flemish) that were good in acting like Calimero from the eternal underdog position.

 

[Spine Concept]

It must have been my imagination when they explicitely started rooting for Kruiswijck during the Giro. Or during the TdS for that matter, idem for Molema. Jeez, here i was thinking it were the Belgians (Flemish) that were good in acting like Calimero from the eternal underdog position.

I think that was a case of commanded respect. At a certain point, it cannot be denied or overlooked anymore.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think that was a case of commanded respect. At a certain point, it cannot be denied or overlooked anymore.

You guys seriously have a totally wrong idea of how things are in Belgium i believe. There is a lot of playful mockery that goes on, aimed at the Dutch, that's for sure. But when Holland plays a soccer match, against Brazil or Germany, more people here will root for Holland than the other way around. My entire city was colored orange during the world cup. There was also a lot of respect for Boom when he was in cyclocross, but obviously, when the opportunity is presented, Belgians will rather root for a Belgian. But what more do you expect? This is not just among sports fans, but among journalists as well. Belgians just don't tend to be so vocal about these things as Dutch people. That doesn't mean it isn't more than commanded respect. But of course, there will be exceptions to the rule.

But tell me, will you or the Dutch commentators be cheering for JVDB if he gets on the podium? No, you will be down because it isn't the -widely accepted to be more talented among the Dutch- Gesink that pulled it off.

 

[ferryman]

I don't think he's overhyped.
He would have if people think he can beat Contador and Andy.

The others he has all beaten before in other stage-races. And many also in a Grand Tour. So what's the overhype? It would not be shocking if Gesink beat Basso and Evans, he was already doing that in the Vuelta 2009 up until the final mountainstage where he had to ride with a huge hole in his knee.
It wouldn't be a shock that he beats Samuel Sanchez. It wouldn't be a shock that he'd beat Vandenbroeck, Leipheimer and Klöden.

So where's the overhype?

I can't see how anyone could genuinely disagree with any of this. In fact, you could also have thrown in Wiggins and maybe Frank for completeness of the undercard.

 

[Spine Concept]

You guys seriously have a totally wrong idea of how things are in Belgium i believe. There is a lot of playful mockery that goes on, aimed at the Dutch, that's for sure. But when Holland plays a soccer match, against Brazil or Germany, more people here will root for Holland than the other way around. My entire city was colored orange during the world cup. There was also a lot of respect for Boom when he was in cyclocross, but obviously, when the opportunity is presented, Belgians will rather root for a Belgian. But what more do you expect? This is not just among sports fans, but among journalists as well. Belgians just don't tend to be so vocal about these things as Dutch people. That doesn't mean it isn't more than commanded respect. But of course, there will be exceptions to the rule.

But tell me, will you or the Dutch commentators be cheering for JVDB if he gets on the podium? No, you will be down because it isn't the -widely accepted to be more talented among the Dutch- Gesink that pulled it off.

First of all slow down, you're barking up the wrong tree friend. There are so many flawed assumptions in your post I do not know where to begin.

I gave my opinion on what may have been the reason for the recognition of Dutch cycling talent - Stevo in this case - on their part. Take it as you wish, but that's how I see it.
I won't comment on the football analogy since it bears no meaning what so ever on cycling. Football pundits are not cycling pundits and their opinions differ respective to their sport of choice. It seems you have overstepped the boundaries of my standpoint which is limited to cycling.
Furthermore, I do not buy that ''not being too vocal about it'' nonsense. However, let's leave it at that since it's a moot point to argue anyway.
Regarding Lars Boom, his situation is the same as with Kruijswijk for me in the sense that he commanded that respect. I'm sure you see it differently though, which is your privilege.
A nice and simple counter argument for that whole ''cheering for VDB2 if he podiums comment'' would be the same question posed to you or the Belgian commentators if the roles were reversed.

Last but not least, I have said this many times, I am not Dutch. Unfortunately where I come from we have not been blessed with talented cyclists so I have to pick and choose. Coincidentally, Gesink is one of my favored riders. If I defend Sagan tomorrow, will you call me a Slovak? Anyway, the point is that I would appreciate you not reffering to me in that regard simply because I take a stand for a particular cyclist. Thanks.

 

[Bala Verde]

The thread is about the TTT not about the cheer leading of dutch riders (or the lack thereof) in the Belgian press.

Please pay attention, and get back on topic.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

First of all slow down, you're barking up the wrong tree friend. There are so many flawed assumptions in your post I do not know where to begin.

Funny, because flawed assumptions is the reason why i posted this.

I gave my opinion on what may have been the reason for the recognition of Dutch cycling talent - Stevo in this case - on their part. Take it as you wish, but that's how I see it.
I won't comment on the football analogy since it bears no meaning what so ever on cycling. Football pundits are not cycling pundits and their opinions differ respective to their sport of choice.

Of course not. Why would that be? Belgian cycling fans and journalists can't stand the Dutch, but the football fans and journalists can? Maybe they are separated at birth and raised in different social surroundings?

We are talking about an a priori dislike. This is total nonsense. No need to go into this any further. You are wrong.

Furthermore, I do not buy that ''not being too vocal about it'' nonsense. However, let's leave it at that since it's a moot point anyway.

Of course it is not a moot point. You just said it was a case of commanded respect. Obviously you don't know too many Dutch or Belgian people or you would know what exactly i was talking about.

A nice and simple counter argument for that whole ''cheering for VDB2 if he podiums comment'' would be the same question posed to you or the Belgian commentators if the roles were reversed.

I never said that, this was actually my point. But the reversed seems to be expected. Apparently the rooting for Kruiswijck wasn't convincing enough.

Last but not least, I have said this many times, I am not Dutch. Unfortunately where I come from we have not been blessed with talented cyclists so I have to pick and choose. Coincidentally, Gesink is one of my favored riders. If I defend Sagan tomorrow, will you call me a Slovak? Anyway, the point is that I would appreciate you not reffering to me in that regard simply because I take a stand for a particular cyclist. Thanks.

Ok, so you're not Dutch. What makes you think you have a better understanding of what goes on between Belgians and Dutch people in this regard, then me, who actually lives there? Besides, the fact that you yourself aren't Dutch changes little about the point i was making.

The thread is about the TTT not about the cheer leading of dutch riders (or the lack thereof) in the Belgian press.

Please pay attention, and get back on topic.

Sorry, was already posting before i saw your post.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Did you hate on the first few stages of the tour last year? because a grand tour is meant to be the ultimate test of cycling and needs to involve different aspects of racing. The cobbles last year was a good inclusion and since it is a team sport having the TTT is just part of the sport. I do think that there should be limits placed on it though so if something bad was to happen then you only lose a maximum of say 2 minutes for this route

Again, the TEAM Time Trial is counted on a teams time and not an individual riders strength. As much as it is a team sport it is also an individual sport. When the shit hits the fan in any one day classic or stage race, it comes down to being tatically astute and the strongest. Again the General Claasification is an individual classificiation so team times based on a teams strength should not be counted.

Poor Samu is going to be disadvantaged after the first 200km of the Tour even though he has a strong climbing team. I can't bear having to listen to The Hitch after the TTT.

 

[Spine Concept]

Funny, because flawed assumptions is the reason why i posted this.

Well then you're that much further from making your point then aren't you? Hypocrisy isn't exactly a good pitch for a compelling argument.

Of course not. Why would that be? Belgian cycling fans and journalists can't stand the Dutch, but the football fans and journalists can? Maybe they are separated at birth and raised in different social surroundings?

We are talking about an a priori dislike. This is total nonsense. No need to go into this any further. You are wrong.

No, you just can't take it when someone has a different opinion than you do. Deal with it. Football is not cycling. Ridiculous logic. Anyway, won't waste my time on this anymore since you are an obvious bigoted pompous that needs to be right all the time.

Of course it is not a moot point. You just said it was a case of commanded respect. Obviously you don't know too many Dutch or Belgian people or you would know what exactly i was talking about.

No, it's a moot point because you live there and obviously know everything about the ongoings and inner works of the Belgian pundits as opposed to what is heard and read on a regular basis by those same pundits.

I never said that, this was actually my point. But the reversed seems to be expected. Apparently the rooting for Kruiswijck wasn't convincing enough.

Well then, I guess you'll have to wait and see after the Tour then wouldn't you? They might surprise you in the same way the Belgians did.

Ok, so you're not Dutch. What makes you think you have a better understanding of what goes on between Belgians and Dutch people in this regard, then me, who actually lives there? Besides, the fact that you yourself aren't Dutch changes little about the point i was making.

I never said I know better. I was just giving my opinion. I do not have to make excuses for having an opinion now do I? Put it in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[VeloCity]

I note how those that have answered are dancing around the point you make. A strong team is advantageous irrespective of the course - to its teammates. And while generally, the strength of another team is thought to be a threat, one can benefit when another strong team starts the lead-out in a sprint, or if eschlons form, or if a break needs to be brought back. But another strong team can only be to your disadvantage in a TTT. Note that I have not used the emotion tugging "unfair" moniker. The point being, everyone knows the rules and the route well before a race starts. Every team has the ability to staff both their full squad, and the race team in a way that best suits its ambitions. Stating the obvious, certain teams have greater financial limitations than others - is that fair?

It is also interesting that many here who want to do away with the TTT also want to see time bonuses awarded. We all have seen plenty of stages where a protected rider follows his team mates wheel all the way up a climb on to launch in the final kms to race to a win. Are not time bonuses a way of awarding advantage to the strong team? (the difference is in degree, not design.)

Who's dancing around it? I think the TTT is ridiculous because it's based on the time of the fifth rider, so doesnt matter in the least how strong, say, Andy is, it's how strong Andy's 4th teammate is. Comparing it to having a strong team in the mountains is silly - doesn't matter how strong Andy's team is in the mountains, Andy's time is completely dependent on when Andy crosses the finish line, not when one of his teammates finishes.

 

[benpounder]

Who's dancing around it? I think the TTT is ridiculous because it's based on the time of the fifth rider, so doesnt matter in the least how strong, say, Andy is, it's how strong Andy's 4th teammate is. Comparing it to having a strong team in the mountains is silly - doesn't matter how strong Andy's team is in the mountains, Andy's time is completely dependent on when Andy crosses the finish line, not when one of his teammates finishes.

So why dont Andy and Alberto ride without teammates? And to play out your scenerio, I'd grant a hovering support vechicle mere seconds behind.

Of course a strong team helps. And helps in many way on many stages. Frankly, I accept that many here dislike the TTT. What I disagree with is the argument that the TTT is inordinanetly unfair. And this is where most of the arguments against the TTT finaly land. My contention is that no more unfair than having a strong team through-out the race. All I've heard is how such and such rider can lose x amount of time just because they dont have a strong time trialing team. But rarely is the flip side acknowledged - that a strong mountian team likely insures that that same rider not lose time on mountain stages. Certainly, strong TT teams have readily apparent tangible benefits; team strengths elsewhere provide immeasurable, but no less tangible benefits. Focusing on only one side is avoiding the issue raised.

 

[benpounder]

Let me draw a finer point VeloCity. In the 2008 TdF, would Carlos Sastre had won were in not for his team mates the Schleck bros? Had ASO stopped the field on that fateful stage 17, at the foot of Alpe D'Huez and just Evans and Sastre, or Evans and Frank, or Evans and Andy (all CSC riders) continued, would any defeat Evans five days later in Paris?

Here are the top ten finishers that day:

1 Carlos Sastre (Spa) CSC-Saxo Bank 6.07.58 (34.32 km/h)
2 Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 2.03
3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
4 Alejandro Valverde Belmonte (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 2.13
5 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
6 Vladimir Efimkin (Rus) AG2R La Mondiale 2.15
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto
8 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank
9 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30
10 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner

Beginning that day, Evans was lying in third, 8 seconds behind F. Schleck , 1 second behind B. Kohl, and 41 seconds in front of Carlos. After L'Alpe were two moderate mountain stages, but no MTF's.

Saturday was the typical ITT with the following stage time deltas:
Evans finishes 7th @ +2:05
Sastre 12th @ +2:34
A Schleck 30th @ 4:02
F Schleck 54th @ +5:38

Now here is the crucial question. Are you certain that Carlos could have made up his final winning margin of just 1:05 had it not been for his teammates, the Schleck bros, constant feints and parries on the slopes of L'Alpe D'Huez?

Furthermore, had stage 4 been a TTT instead of the 29.5km ITT, would that have changed the race, due soley to team TTT strength, significantly? [my edit - here is the start list]

 

[cineteq]

Let me draw a finer point VeloCity. In the 2008 TdF, would Carlos Sastre had won were in not for his team mates the Schleck bros? Had ASO stopped the field on that fateful stage 17, at the foot of Alpe D'Huez and just Evans and Sastre, or Evans and Frank, or Evans and Andy (all CSC riders) continued, would any defeat Evans five days later in Paris?

Well put, hope the stop naysayers once a and for all