Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[martinvickers]

I agree with you, open a new topic for it nevertheless. Just for the ones with a soft heart...

I don't think anyone would argue against a topic on Tom Simpson, or Pantani - public figures, known dopers who died directly from drugs, one way or the other it's a hell of a leap, like it or not, from there to indulging the conspiracies around Gonzales, for which there is literally nothing but conjecture.

And for what it's worth, I can certainly see Simpson, and Pantani, as tragic figures to be remembered, if only as a warning. After all, they paid the ultimate price for their wrongdoings.

But not heroic ones, to be feted. Cheats aren't heroic.

 

[Catwhoorg]

It is an embarrassment that Simpson is held in such high regard by many British Cyclists.

I kind of understand why, for so many years he was the only British world Champion at the road race.

Cav at least broke that.


To me, Simpson was tragic figure who paid the price for his doping. Not someone I would want my daughter to grow up and admire.

 

[sniper]

1) Just like the discussion regarding Thatcher after her death?

2) This is the clinic. Pretty much here is speculation about conspiracies.

3) Is that reason to ban a topic? Pretty much any topic can lead to bans, hardly the fault of the topic(s), but the posters, no? It's not like there isn't any problems or unnecessary conflicts atm...

It's just simple speculation that a soigneur (like other soigneurs in the past) had experimented with peds on himself, possibly being the cause of his death. I really can't see any problem with that, and I don't think it's a problem if some doesn't like the topic.

If the PDM affair in 1991 had led to the death of a rider, would that topic then also be banned?

Well put.

Imo DW listed a couple of good reasons why we shouldnt beforehand dismiss a possible correlation between txemas death and peds as a conspiracy. The guy was healthy and we,ve heard no plausible alternative explanation as of yet.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Well put.

Imo DW listed a couple of good reasons why we shouldnt beforehand dismiss a possible correlation between txemas death and peds as a conspiracy. The guy was healthy and we,ve heard no plausible alternative explanation as of yet.

The point is that no amount of discussion is going to resolve anything, as the facts aren't available. So the most likely outcome is simply tastle references and attempted point scoring at the expense a guy who died tragically young.

So please can't you just let the matter lie?

If you desperately want to discuss it then can't you exchange a few PMs?

 

[deviant]

Well put.

The guy was healthy and we,ve heard no plausible alternative explanation as of yet.

Yes you have, i stated that Meningococcal disease can take somebody down like that.

Its rare but it happens:

The bacteria that cause meningococcal disease are common and live naturally at the back of the nose and throat. Human beings are the only place where meningococcal bacteria can live.
At any one time, one in ten of us carries the bacteria for weeks or months without ever knowing that they are there7, and for most of us this is harmless because, fortunately, most of us have natural resistance.

The illness occurs when the bacteria break through the protective lining of the nose and throat, and enter the bloodstream. Once in the bloodstream, they multiply rapidly, doubling their numbers every 30 minutes. In some people the bacteria cross the blood-brain barrier, causing meningitis. In others, overwhelming septicaemia happens so quickly that there is no time for meningitis to develop.


http://www.meningitis.org/disease-info/types-causes/meningoccal-disease

There is a perfectly plausible explanation right there but it doesnt fit in with the doping conspiracy so you've chosen to ignore it.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I don't think anyone would argue against a topic on Tom Simpson, or Pantani - public figures, known dopers who died directly from drugs, one way or the other it's a hell of a leap, like it or not, from there to indulging the conspiracies around Gonzales, for which there is literally nothing but conjecture.

And for what it's worth, I can certainly see Simpson, and Pantani, as tragic figures to be remembered, if only as a warning. After all, they paid the ultimate price for their wrongdoings.

But not heroic ones, to be feted. Cheats aren't heroic.

|Sorry martin, I aint biting. Good attempt though. No vortexing here.

It could be an interesting Jessica Flanders, uh, Fletcher, 'the Death of Carer'.

I agree with Wallace or Gromit by the way.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Well put.

Imo DW listed a couple of good reasons why we shouldnt beforehand dismiss a possible correlation between txemas death and peds as a conspiracy. The guy was healthy and we,ve heard no plausible alternative explanation as of yet.

Coroner'sNews Forum might be more your thing.

 

[oldcrank]

Let it be said that the official cause of Mr. Tom Simpson's death
was heart failure due to dehydration and heat exhaustion.

The contributing factor of amphetamine ingestion was very
convenient for the organisers of the Tour de France whose
rules lead to dehydration by restricting the number of bidons
a rider was allowed.

It should be noted those rules were quietly amended.

 

[sniper]

@wallace or gromit,
thats a strawman.
I,m not saying we should discuss it, nor is netserk, i think.

@deviant, your alternative scenario is rare, as you say. Death through drug abuse isnt.

 

[martinvickers]

|Sorry martin, I aint biting. Good attempt though. No vortexing here.

It could be an interesting Jessica Flanders, uh, Fletcher, 'the Death of Carer'.

.

I can honestly say I do not understand a word of this soup.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

@wallace or gromit,
thats a strawman.
I,m not saying we should discuss it, nor is netserk, i think.

Excellent. Thanks.

 

[lllludo]

Let it be said that the official cause of Mr. Tom Simpson's death was heart failure due to dehydration and heat exhaustion.

The contributing factor of amphetamine ingestion was very
convenient for the organisers of the Tour de France whose
rules lead to dehydration by restricting the number of bidons
a rider was allowed.

the amphetamines were just a contributing factor in Simpson's death ?
Hmmm.. imo another british cycling legend.

Did you know Simpson drank cognac that day ? So we should add a mix of alcool and amphets as another contributing factor, no ?
Incidentally the 1st anti-doping tests were enforced the following year during the Tour de France to detect amphets.

 

[Digger]

Wiggins, when he passed the memorial and the small knot of spectators gathered there, was fully committed to his pursuit of Alberto Contador, Lance Armstrong and the Schleck brothers in defence of his fourth place overall. While Wiggins couldn’t afford even a glance at the memorial during the stage, he later communicated a message via Twitter. "Shed a tear today for Tom," read his post. "I had a little extra strength today from somewhere. Had a photo of the man on my top tube."

Wiggins on Simpson...what a load of tripe

 

[lllludo]

Cookson also is a Simpson fan boy

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/50th-anni/article/bc-50th-The-day-I-met-Tom-Simpson

What ? Cookson doesn't believe the offcial theory of death by dehydratation ?
Well it's kind of a complicated love/hate relationship with Tommy in fact.
The last paragraph is interesting probably referring to AC at the time (2011?). Considering the latest Henao developments do you think Cookson is sceptic in front of Team SKY's success ??

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Some of these bios are turning into something similar to the stuff printed by

Royal too. Notice the dawg.

 

[Digger]

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/50th-anni/article/bc-50th-The-day-I-met-Tom-Simpson

What ? Cookson doesn't believe the offcial theory of death by dehydratation ?
Well it's kind of a complicated love/hate relationship with Tommy in fact.
The last paragraph is interesting probably referring to AC at the time (2011?). Considering the latest Henao developments do you think Cookson is sceptic in front of Team SKY's success ??

No...Brian in 2010 at the Pathways Cycling Conference, where landis spoke, Cookson said that the lack of long breakaways like Landis was a sign of clean cycling...same year that Alberto and Andy were sprinting up mountains...so no I don't think he's the most clued in of presidents.

 

[sniper]

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/50th-anni/article/bc-50th-The-day-I-met-Tom-Simpson

What ? Cookson doesn't believe the offcial theory of death by dehydratation ?
Well it's kind of a complicated love/hate relationship with Tommy in fact.
The last paragraph is interesting probably referring to AC at the time (2011?). Considering the latest Henao developments do you think Cookson is sceptic in front of Team SKY's success ??

Crookson in that paragraph referring to lance, i suppose

 

[martinvickers]

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/50th-anni/article/bc-50th-The-day-I-met-Tom-Simpson

What ? Cookson doesn't believe the offcial theory of death by dehydratation ?
Well it's kind of a complicated love/hate relationship with Tommy in fact.
The last paragraph is interesting probably referring to AC at the time (2011?). Considering the latest Henao developments do you think Cookson is sceptic in front of Team SKY's success ??

Of course it is.

Do you know much about pro-wrestling, apart from it being the profession of Rob Hayles dad? Cookson was admitting to being a mark; Simpson's death smartened him up. Smartened a lot of people up, and not just in Britain - a country, remember where road racing, as opposed to time trialing, had long been distrusted by the 'authorities'.

He'd been a national hero in the un-ironic sense. And after his death, the Daily Mail printed this :

Tommy Simpson rode to his death in the Tour de France so doped that he did not know he had reached the limit of his endurance. He died in the saddle, slowly asphyxiated by intense effort in a heatwave after taking methylamphetamine drugs and alcoholic stimulants.

No-one was under any illusion after that. It wasn't an heroic death. It was a tragic one, and a sick one. In some ways it marked the real end of innocence. Everything after that came with an asterisk of one sort or another - until Armstrong took us all the way. Asterisks seem quaint in that light.

Simpson was born in Haswell, and won his World Championship in San Sebastian. But that's not where the memorial is. It's on the slopes of the Ventoux. Not marking a life well lived, but one ill ended. A cause for sadness and regret, not joy. Worth remembering, but not for reasons of pride. As it should be.

Pretty much as Cookson seems to see it, to be fair.

 

[red_flanders]

No-one was under any illusion after that. It wasn't an heroic death. It was a tragic one, and a sick one. In some ways it marked the real end of innocence. Everything after that came with an asterisk of one sort or another - until Armstrong took us all the way. Asterisks seem quaint in that light.

An asterisk? We were all the way long before Armstrong.

I think we can clearly say that anyone paying the remotest amount of attention in the years between Simpson and Armstrong (32 years) knew full well what the game was. There had been several steroid scandals with Thevenet, Delgado and others. Anyone paying attention after 1993 knew what was up. Festina absolutely blew the lid off. Armstrong was simply another follow-on.

 

[Afrank]

1) Just like the discussion regarding Thatcher after her death?

2) This is the clinic. Pretty much here is speculation about conspiracies.

3) Is that reason to ban a topic? Pretty much any topic can lead to bans, hardly the fault of the topic(s), but the posters, no? It's not like there isn't any problems or unnecessary conflicts atm...

It's just simple speculation that a soigneur (like other soigneurs in the past) had experimented with peds on himself, possibly being the cause of his death. I really can't see any problem with that, and I don't think it's a problem if some doesn't like the topic.

If the PDM affair in 1991 had led to the death of a rider, would that topic then also be banned?

Gonna respond in sidebar thread so as to not further any off topic here.

 

[martinvickers]

An asterisk? I think we can clearly say that anyone paying the remotest amount of attention in the years between Simpson and Armstrong knew full well what the game was. Anyone paying attention after 1993 knew what was up. Festina absolutely blew the lid off. Armstrong was simply another follow-on.

I disagree, to an extent. Again, my wrestling analogy - you'd be stunned the number of people for whom vince McMahon's famous admission of 'sports entertainment' was a genuine shock. Even people who followed and loved it...or maybe especially them.

Most clued in people thought there was a bit of what Armstrong called "low octane" all along, and most people were right. But if you think the sheer scale and twistedness of what came from Festina was not a shock to many fans of the sport, I fear you are letting your cynicism cloud your judgement.

 

[hrotha]

Excuse me, how is Txema's death not relevant here when Brailsford himself said it was the reason why they hired Leinders?

If the connection makes you uneasy, blame Brailsford. If you think it's tasteless (and it was; IMO the most disgusting thing he's ever said), blame Brailsford.

 

[Benotti69]

post #25890

Sky dont come out of Txema's death clean, Brailsford used his death as an excuse to hire Leinders. Bet Txema's family like that association.

Excuse me, how is Txema's death not relevant here when Brailsford himself said it was the reason why they hired Leinders?

If the connection makes you uneasy, blame Brailsford. If you think it's tasteless (and it was; IMO the most disgusting thing he's ever said), blame Brailsford.

It is worth repeating should Sky fans forget.

 

[Digger]

Excuse me, how is Txema's death not relevant here when Brailsford himself said it was the reason why they hired Leinders?

If the connection makes you uneasy, blame Brailsford. If you think it's tasteless (and it was; IMO the most disgusting thing he's ever said), blame Brailsford.

This...and a further example of Walsh not getting his facts straight

CN: You mentioned Leinders, and as you said in your book, it’s the issue that haunts Sky like Banquo's ghost. What strikes me about the whole matter is that Sky had doctors with no cycling links until soigneur Txema Gonzalez died after contracting a bacterial infection at the 2010 Vuelta a España, and it seemed like his death was later used as a pretext for bringing in Leinders. But as soon as the Rabobank stuff breaks, Leinders is out the door and Sky are back to non-cycling doctors again. Does this mean the team's health is at risk again? It seems a very serious issue to be flip-flopping back and forth on.

DW: What evidence do you have that they used Gonzalez's death as a pretext?

CN: I don't have evidence but it certainly seems to be casting a terrible aspersion on the doctors who worked on the team at the Vuelta in 2010. It's basically saying that they weren't up to their job and a man died as a consequence.

DW: So you don't believe it was a pretext, you just don't know?

Brailsford explaining why Leinders was recruited:

When someone dies on your team and you feel you’re putting riders at risk… for all we knew the riders could have had the same thing.

 

[The Hitch]

This...and a further example of Walsh not getting his facts straight




Brailsford explaining why Leinders was recruited: