• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

Page 1494 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Re: Sky

JRanton said:
I can't believe how overblown this has been in the UK press. The alleged offence is basically that Freeman and Wiggins didn't wait a few hours until one minute past midnight to carry out the triamcinolone treatment. It isn't a banned drug out of competition and the race was over when Wiggins was treated with it.

Whoever made this allegation obviously had a massive axe to grind. Probably some gimp upset about the zero tolerance policy or Sky's outspoken views on doping.
At this point, though, the problems with the story are so many that it has become irrelevant whether the infamous jiffy bag was actually something illegal or not. It really doesn't matter now even if it was fiumicil because the problems posed by the handling of the issue are so massive as to hugely incriminate Brailsford, Sky and BC anyway.

- Firstly, the purpose of the trip. Whatever the substance was, the team clearly cared more about the substance and its secrecy than they did about Cope, hanging him out to dry as a convenient patsy asking him to lie to customs.
- The very fact that they used an employee of the publicly-funded British Cycling enterprise as a mule for the privately-funded commercial enterprise Team Sky is a significant problem of governance that had been raised right from the beginning. I've been commenting on it on the forum since back in 2010 and I'm far from alone - including official documents raising the issue of the blurred lines between the nationally-based public organ and the international commercial team.
- Then to add to this you have the additional problem that we are talking a coach of the women's team not coaching the women but instead their resources being driven towards the men's team, including Cope admitting to spending a month motorpacing Wiggins in training sessions. This is not his job, and the fact that the women were organizing their own training camps and paying their own expenses to travel to the World Championships while Cope was ferrying packets to and fro for Team Sky is a significant issue in its own right.
- The incredibly inelegant attempt to pin the package on Emma Pooley which would have been pretty questionable had Cope stuck around in France for a while rather than just dropping the package off and returning again. As it was, it was a pretty disgusting attempt to disguise the misuse of Cope and deflect blame away from the potentially guilty parties by implicating an innocent bystander, who also happens to be one of those who has been most wronged by the point above about the women being hung out to dry by BC. The fact that such a transparent lie made it to the press before any fact checking could be done (literally, disproving it takes under 30 seconds using a results aggregator like CQ ranking) also shows the contempt in which they held the intelligence of the press and the general public.
- Cope had no idea what women's races even existed and admitted to running this courier service on a number of other occasions (the number of which he has revised downwards as the story has continued).
- Brailsford trying to sell Lawton a "more positive" story and buy him off with merchandise and bike rides. Enough said.
- The team purchased fiumicil abroad on a number of occasions, so why would they have needed this particular batch of it so urgently that it had to be a "drop everything and deliver today" situation to carry it halfway across Europe? Even if the substance WAS triamcinolone, why did they then lie to the enquiry and say it was fiumicil? Is the concern about the supposed midnight limit so severe that it merits lying to a parliamentary enquiry through your teeth?

Once you move past the package, however, there are a number of procedural problems that have been raised from the subsequent enquiry statements.
- Brailsford claimed never to have heard of the substances in question when first asked about them. Now he claims to have been injected with it. I don't know about you, but if I have a problem which requires something being injected into me, I want to know what it is and why it's being administered. I may not be familiar with the substance's name, but I want to know what it does. And I'll know what the substance is afterward.
- Freeman supposedly didn't back up his medical records for three whole years, if the Sky story is to be considered correct. If this is the case, then there is a case of gross negligence which demonstrates an absolutely fundamental lack of proper governance. How in god's name has this not been picked up in an audit? Or if it has, how has Freeman not been disciplined for it? In my profession, if stuff is not improperly stored and there's a data protection breach, it's a big deal. And you have to assume - and indeed it has been confirmed by people on the forum who work in the profession - that in the medical profession it's an even bigger deal because it includes a lot more sensitive personal data. Three entire years of not backing up your files should be grounds for firing long before it gets to that point.
- If Freeman did back up his medical records, where have the backup copies gone?
- Who was keeping watch over Freeman, who did the auditing, who was responsible for governance that allowed such a dreadful error to occur as medical records for an entire three year period (minimum) going missing? Because if they've allowed this to occur due to improper governance or insufficient checking of the records, they have not exercised appropriate control over the staff, so would be guilty either of negligence or of being complicit in deceit and they need to go too.
- If Freeman has been massively over-ordering pharmaceutical products, then what happens to the surplus?
- If as has been stated to the enquiry these products have been purchased for BC and thereby passed on to Team Sky, BC effectively act as wholesaler of controlled substances. This is tightly regulated, and BC would therefore need to have very strictly monitored records to make sure that this is all done above board. Is this in place?
- If BC are wholesaling these products to Team Sky, it raises a very valid possibility that, indirectly, British taxpayer money is going to providing controlled substances not just to riders for British Cycling, but foreign riders from the commercial Team Sky, i.e. not under BC jurisdiction. If so, this is a further potential legal issue - again like with USPS one of the main issues is the public nature of one of the organs in the arrangement which raises more questions about the morality of the operation because public money is involved.


Frankly, to believe this is a nothing incident blown up into something big is to miss the point. To not be implicated in some serious wrongdoing (and some of the potential, and even likely, wrongdoing as listed above is very, very serious indeed) and for it all to be innocent mistakes and misunderstanding, you must credit Team Sky with very little intelligence and business acumen at all, because you'd basically be saying that they've bumbled their way, Keystone Kops-like, through pro cycling, giving pro speeches about the level of professionalism they're bringing to the sport whilst relying entirely on blind luck, throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, not overseeing their staff and exposing themselves to all manner of errors and omissions issues, just relying on a combination of hope and beginner's luck that they'll succeed. That they've managed to order wrong documents, fail to audit people for three years (and then, once the laptop has been stolen, fail to take action against the culprit of the failed compliance processes for a further three years) and demonstrate silent movie slapstick levels of incompetence, and yet run the most successful operation in the sport. Brailsford couldn't have got to where he is being such a bumbling buffoon that he didn't know any of this, and was able to so successfully control the message but couldn't keep any control whatsoever over his staff over such a period of time. It's either stupid or disingenuous to believe that they could be that incompetent and yet that successful in that manner, and that's why even if the actual incident that has triggered this investigation may be minor, the fallout from it IS a big deal and damn well should be. Personally, I believe you're smarter than that.
 
Jul 21, 2016
913
0
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

PeterB said:
Dan2016 said:
Yup, it's hilarious. :D

According to Sunday Times, source to David Walsh The Golden Truthseeker, 60 - 70 vials of Kenalog were delivered to Sky HQ in 2011.

So UKAD have seen large quantities of the same drug now, 2016/17.
Remember, no records kept. UKAD have actually seen this stock of drugs in person. So it seems fair to assume Sky have had a large yearly order of Kenalog for years now.

C*nts. :)
Did UKAD say that they found physical inventory of triamcinolone now? All I read was that they found it was ordered at some date in the past, which could refer to 2011. Having it in stock even now would be really damning so I wonder if I have overlooked this info.

I've been scan reading the press on the story and admit I might have the 'physical inventory' bit wrong, adding 2+2 and getting 5. I've seen this quote from Sapstead's repeated several times and I might have misinterpreted:
'She (Sapstead) did, however, say the British Cycling medical store held a significant amount of Kenalog that suggested it was being used by more than one rider but knowing that for sure would require access to every rider’s medical files'.
 
Re: Sky

Libertine Seguros said:
JRanton said:
I can't believe how overblown this has been in the UK press. The alleged offence is basically that Freeman and Wiggins didn't wait a few hours until one minute past midnight to carry out the triamcinolone treatment. It isn't a banned drug out of competition and the race was over when Wiggins was treated with it.

Whoever made this allegation obviously had a massive axe to grind. Probably some gimp upset about the zero tolerance policy or Sky's outspoken views on doping.
At this point, though, the problems with the story are so many that it has become irrelevant whether the infamous jiffy bag was actually something illegal or not. It really doesn't matter now even if it was fiumicil because the problems posed by the handling of the issue are so massive as to hugely incriminate Brailsford, Sky and BC anyway.

- Firstly, the purpose of the trip. Whatever the substance was, the team clearly cared more about the substance and its secrecy than they did about Cope, hanging him out to dry as a convenient patsy asking him to lie to customs.
- The very fact that they used an employee of the publicly-funded British Cycling enterprise as a mule for the privately-funded commercial enterprise Team Sky is a significant problem of governance that had been raised right from the beginning. I've been commenting on it on the forum since back in 2010 and I'm far from alone - including official documents raising the issue of the blurred lines between the nationally-based public organ and the international commercial team.
- Then to add to this you have the additional problem that we are talking a coach of the women's team not coaching the women but instead their resources being driven towards the men's team, including Cope admitting to spending a month motorpacing Wiggins in training sessions. This is not his job, and the fact that the women were organizing their own training camps and paying their own expenses to travel to the World Championships while Cope was ferrying packets to and fro for Team Sky is a significant issue in its own right.
- The incredibly inelegant attempt to pin the package on Emma Pooley which would have been pretty questionable had Cope stuck around in France for a while rather than just dropping the package off and returning again. As it was, it was a pretty disgusting attempt to disguise the misuse of Cope and deflect blame away from the potentially guilty parties by implicating an innocent bystander, who also happens to be one of those who has been most wronged by the point above about the women being hung out to dry by BC. The fact that such a transparent lie made it to the press before any fact checking could be done (literally, disproving it takes under 30 seconds using a results aggregator like CQ ranking) also shows the contempt in which they held the intelligence of the press and the general public.
- Cope had no idea what women's races even existed and admitted to running this courier service on a number of other occasions (the number of which he has revised downwards as the story has continued).
- Brailsford trying to sell Lawton a "more positive" story and buy him off with merchandise and bike rides. Enough said.
- The team purchased fiumicil abroad on a number of occasions, so why would they have needed this particular batch of it so urgently that it had to be a "drop everything and deliver today" situation to carry it halfway across Europe? Even if the substance WAS triamcinolone, why did they then lie to the enquiry and say it was fiumicil? Is the concern about the supposed midnight limit so severe that it merits lying to a parliamentary enquiry through your teeth?

Once you move past the package, however, there are a number of procedural problems that have been raised from the subsequent enquiry statements.
- Brailsford claimed never to have heard of the substances in question when first asked about them. Now he claims to have been injected with it. I don't know about you, but if I have a problem which requires something being injected into me, I want to know what it is and why it's being administered. I may not be familiar with the substance's name, but I want to know what it does. And I'll know what the substance is afterward.
- Freeman supposedly didn't back up his medical records for three whole years, if the Sky story is to be considered correct. If this is the case, then there is a case of gross negligence which demonstrates an absolutely fundamental lack of proper governance. How in god's name has this not been picked up in an audit? Or if it has, how has Freeman not been disciplined for it? In my profession, if stuff is not improperly stored and there's a data protection breach, it's a big deal. And you have to assume - and indeed it has been confirmed by people on the forum who work in the profession - that in the medical profession it's an even bigger deal because it includes a lot more sensitive personal data. Three entire years of not backing up your files should be grounds for firing long before it gets to that point.
- If Freeman did back up his medical records, where have the backup copies gone?
- Who was keeping watch over Freeman, who did the auditing, who was responsible for governance that allowed such a dreadful error to occur as medical records for an entire three year period (minimum) going missing? Because if they've allowed this to occur due to improper governance or insufficient checking of the records, they have not exercised appropriate control over the staff, so would be guilty either of negligence or of being complicit in deceit and they need to go too.
- If Freeman has been massively over-ordering pharmaceutical products, then what happens to the surplus?
- If as has been stated to the enquiry these products have been purchased for BC and thereby passed on to Team Sky, BC effectively act as wholesaler of controlled substances. This is tightly regulated, and BC would therefore need to have very strictly monitored records to make sure that this is all done above board. Is this in place?
- If BC are wholesaling these products to Team Sky, it raises a very valid possibility that, indirectly, British taxpayer money is going to providing controlled substances not just to riders for British Cycling, but foreign riders from the commercial Team Sky, i.e. not under BC jurisdiction. If so, this is a further potential legal issue - again like with USPS one of the main issues is the public nature of one of the organs in the arrangement which raises more questions about the morality of the operation because public money is involved.


Frankly, to believe this is a nothing incident blown up into something big is to miss the point. To not be implicated in some serious wrongdoing (and some of the potential, and even likely, wrongdoing as listed above is very, very serious indeed) and for it all to be innocent mistakes and misunderstanding, you must credit Team Sky with very little intelligence and business acumen at all, because you'd basically be saying that they've bumbled their way, Keystone Kops-like, through pro cycling, giving pro speeches about the level of professionalism they're bringing to the sport whilst relying entirely on blind luck, throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, not overseeing their staff and exposing themselves to all manner of errors and omissions issues, just relying on a combination of hope and beginner's luck that they'll succeed. That they've managed to order wrong documents, fail to audit people for three years (and then, once the laptop has been stolen, fail to take action against the culprit of the failed compliance processes for a further three years) and demonstrate silent movie slapstick levels of incompetence, and yet run the most successful operation in the sport. Brailsford couldn't have got to where he is being such a bumbling buffoon that he didn't know any of this, and was able to so successfully control the message but couldn't keep any control whatsoever over his staff over such a period of time. It's either stupid or disingenuous to believe that they could be that incompetent and yet that successful in that manner, and that's why even if the actual incident that has triggered this investigation may be minor, the fallout from it IS a big deal and damn well should be. Personally, I believe you're smarter than that.

Excellent summary. The devil is always in the detail.

BC / Sky have either been incompetent to the point that the officers of BC should not be allowed to continue to run the organisation, and its governance must be totally overhauled, along with all the overseeing institutions, and particularly those in charge of giving and overseeing the use of public money, OR there has been serious wrong-doing together with deliberate attempts to conceal said wrong-doing. Quite apart from being a problem in itself, that would also suggest that 'the truth' is about much more than this one jiffy bag and its contents, but that this incident reveals the tip of the iceberg.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Visit site
Wheels are coming off now.

Yes it's the tip of the iceberg.
Aicar, microdosing EPO, gummibears, HGH, motirized wheels, full Monty. From BC track to road and back. Staff including soigneurs and mechanics, all with one goal. Cheat and win.


Gillan1967 well done for digging that up.
Hilarious.

Walsh doing everything to safe face. Not gonna work.
 
Question for Blackcat - As each day unfolds the similarities between the Sky Jiffy bag and the EFC 34 are unerring - Give me your opinion ?

I need to post again that Dr Freeman will be the ' fall guy ' for this episode - UKAD by publically leaking details of an on-going investigation are lining up Freeman to be charged with trafficking in prohibited substances.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Wheels are coming off now.

Yes it's the tip of the iceberg.
Aicar, microdosing EPO, gummibears, HGH, motirized wheels, full Monty. From BC track to road and back. Staff including soigneurs and mechanics, all with one goal. Cheat and win.


Gillan1967 well done for digging that up.
Hilarious.

Walsh doing everything to safe face. Not gonna work.
Sneaky ;)


Care to elaborate how gummybears are being used to cheat?
 
Jul 21, 2016
913
0
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

kingjr said:
sniper said:
Wheels are coming off now.

Yes it's the tip of the iceberg.
Aicar, microdosing EPO, gummibears, HGH, motirized wheels, full Monty. From BC track to road and back. Staff including soigneurs and mechanics, all with one goal. Cheat and win.


Gillan1967 well done for digging that up.
Hilarious.

Walsh doing everything to safe face. Not gonna work.
Sneaky ;)


Care to elaborate how gummybears are being used to cheat?

Haha, brilliant :lol: Sneaking gummybears in alongside EPO and HGH.
Gummybear-gate round 2.
 
Re:

yaco said:
Question for Blackcat - As each day unfolds the similarities between the Sky Jiffy bag and the EFC 34 are unerring - Give me your opinion ?

I need to post again that Dr Freeman will be the ' fall guy ' for this episode - UKAD by publically leaking details of an on-going investigation are lining up Freeman to be charged with trafficking in prohibited substances.

I think you're right. Timing is a little interesting, isn't it?

Here's the Guardian with this little nugget:

Dr Freeman has claimed he gave Kenalog to members of Sky’s staff when needed but even then it would be unlikely to be in any notable volume as it is rarely prescribed by doctors and, given that, if it were for an injury, it might well be administered off site when a scan was carried out. It has a shelf life of two years and is supplied in packs of five, hence there is no obvious need to order large quantities.

Dan2016 said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4282644/amp/Crisis-Team-Sky-deepens-dealing-blow-cycling.html

Banned testosterone patches delivered to Sky HQ. In error. Apparently. Hmmm.

All these articles, all of a sudden, seem about taking back some control of the narrative. The above article, for example is not about the testosterone patches, per se, but setting up the 'Rogue Doctor' defence against the allegations.

1. If you believe the patches were sent in error, there is no issue, it was just a mistake - *** happens and they have paperwork etc. However, the timing of the article and other things mentioned within it (note that Dr Freeman is mentioned as in charge of the labs at the time; that there is no paperwork to corroborate the supplier error narrative), clearly expects the reader to read between the lines and come to a different conclusion.

2. If you don't believe that it was an error, the article invites the conclusion that Dr Freeman was behind the order and had to come up with an excuse with it only once the other, good chaps noticed there was a problem. When the good doctors confronted Freeman, he was of course forced to speak to the suppliers and (the article invites you to presume) cajole or otherwise persuade them to send out the excuse to protect their best interests. Sir Dave, you note, knew nothing of it.

Alongside this article about how the other doctor's prevented another TUE being applied for pre. Tour of Britain and how they 'had misgivings about the use of [kenalog]'...nice timing. Has all the hallmarks of Alistair Campbell.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Visit site
Edit: Great post Lib Seg. :cool:

Someone should send that to Walsh, Damian Collins MP and others.

UKAD have to be very careful with throwing Freeman under the bus to protect Sky.

Freeman only worked for Sky for 3 years. he could blow a lot more people out of the water than Sky, a small enterprise against Bolton Wanderers.

UKAD are not squeaky clean and have probably done as much dirty work on behalf of various sporting bodies, hiding positives, losing samples, etc etc and quite possible Freeman knows about that. UKAD have done nothing about Team Linda McCartney, remember!

Will be strange if TeamSky are still going next year or even if they finish this year.......
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Re: Sky

Libertine Seguros said:
At this point, though, the problems with the story are so many that it has become irrelevant whether the infamous jiffy bag was actually something illegal or not. It really doesn't matter now even if it was fiumicil because the problems posed by the handling of the issue are so massive as to hugely incriminate Brailsford, Sky and BC anyway.

- Firstly, the purpose of the trip. Whatever the substance was, the team clearly cared more about the substance and its secrecy than they did about Cope, hanging him out to dry as a convenient patsy asking him to lie to customs.
- The very fact that they used an employee of the publicly-funded British Cycling enterprise as a mule for the privately-funded commercial enterprise Team Sky is a significant problem of governance that had been raised right from the beginning. I've been commenting on it on the forum since back in 2010 and I'm far from alone - including official documents raising the issue of the blurred lines between the nationally-based public organ and the international commercial team.
- Then to add to this you have the additional problem that we are talking a coach of the women's team not coaching the women but instead their resources being driven towards the men's team, including Cope admitting to spending a month motorpacing Wiggins in training sessions. This is not his job, and the fact that the women were organizing their own training camps and paying their own expenses to travel to the World Championships while Cope was ferrying packets to and fro for Team Sky is a significant issue in its own right.
- The incredibly inelegant attempt to pin the package on Emma Pooley which would have been pretty questionable had Cope stuck around in France for a while rather than just dropping the package off and returning again. As it was, it was a pretty disgusting attempt to disguise the misuse of Cope and deflect blame away from the potentially guilty parties by implicating an innocent bystander, who also happens to be one of those who has been most wronged by the point above about the women being hung out to dry by BC. The fact that such a transparent lie made it to the press before any fact checking could be done (literally, disproving it takes under 30 seconds using a results aggregator like CQ ranking) also shows the contempt in which they held the intelligence of the press and the general public.
- Cope had no idea what women's races even existed and admitted to running this courier service on a number of other occasions (the number of which he has revised downwards as the story has continued).
- Brailsford trying to sell Lawton a "more positive" story and buy him off with merchandise and bike rides. Enough said.
- The team purchased fiumicil abroad on a number of occasions, so why would they have needed this particular batch of it so urgently that it had to be a "drop everything and deliver today" situation to carry it halfway across Europe? Even if the substance WAS triamcinolone, why did they then lie to the enquiry and say it was fiumicil? Is the concern about the supposed midnight limit so severe that it merits lying to a parliamentary enquiry through your teeth?

Once you move past the package, however, there are a number of procedural problems that have been raised from the subsequent enquiry statements.
- Brailsford claimed never to have heard of the substances in question when first asked about them. Now he claims to have been injected with it. I don't know about you, but if I have a problem which requires something being injected into me, I want to know what it is and why it's being administered. I may not be familiar with the substance's name, but I want to know what it does. And I'll know what the substance is afterward.
- Freeman supposedly didn't back up his medical records for three whole years, if the Sky story is to be considered correct. If this is the case, then there is a case of gross negligence which demonstrates an absolutely fundamental lack of proper governance. How in god's name has this not been picked up in an audit? Or if it has, how has Freeman not been disciplined for it? In my profession, if stuff is not improperly stored and there's a data protection breach, it's a big deal. And you have to assume - and indeed it has been confirmed by people on the forum who work in the profession - that in the medical profession it's an even bigger deal because it includes a lot more sensitive personal data. Three entire years of not backing up your files should be grounds for firing long before it gets to that point.
- If Freeman did back up his medical records, where have the backup copies gone?
- Who was keeping watch over Freeman, who did the auditing, who was responsible for governance that allowed such a dreadful error to occur as medical records for an entire three year period (minimum) going missing? Because if they've allowed this to occur due to improper governance or insufficient checking of the records, they have not exercised appropriate control over the staff, so would be guilty either of negligence or of being complicit in deceit and they need to go too.
- If Freeman has been massively over-ordering pharmaceutical products, then what happens to the surplus?
- If as has been stated to the enquiry these products have been purchased for BC and thereby passed on to Team Sky, BC effectively act as wholesaler of controlled substances. This is tightly regulated, and BC would therefore need to have very strictly monitored records to make sure that this is all done above board. Is this in place?
- If BC are wholesaling these products to Team Sky, it raises a very valid possibility that, indirectly, British taxpayer money is going to providing controlled substances not just to riders for British Cycling, but foreign riders from the commercial Team Sky, i.e. not under BC jurisdiction. If so, this is a further potential legal issue - again like with USPS one of the main issues is the public nature of one of the organs in the arrangement which raises more questions about the morality of the operation because public money is involved.


Frankly, to believe this is a nothing incident blown up into something big is to miss the point. To not be implicated in some serious wrongdoing (and some of the potential, and even likely, wrongdoing as listed above is very, very serious indeed) and for it all to be innocent mistakes and misunderstanding, you must credit Team Sky with very little intelligence and business acumen at all, because you'd basically be saying that they've bumbled their way, Keystone Kops-like, through pro cycling, giving pro speeches about the level of professionalism they're bringing to the sport whilst relying entirely on blind luck, throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, not overseeing their staff and exposing themselves to all manner of errors and omissions issues, just relying on a combination of hope and beginner's luck that they'll succeed. That they've managed to order wrong documents, fail to audit people for three years (and then, once the laptop has been stolen, fail to take action against the culprit of the failed compliance processes for a further three years) and demonstrate silent movie slapstick levels of incompetence, and yet run the most successful operation in the sport. Brailsford couldn't have got to where he is being such a bumbling buffoon that he didn't know any of this, and was able to so successfully control the message but couldn't keep any control whatsoever over his staff over such a period of time. It's either stupid or disingenuous to believe that they could be that incompetent and yet that successful in that manner, and that's why even if the actual incident that has triggered this investigation may be minor, the fallout from it IS a big deal and damn well should be. Personally, I believe you're smarter than that.

one glaring fallacy LS.

your premise is this is an operation existing within the confines of normal social behaviour and life supervision.

this is false.

this is cycling, it must be seen thru this lens.

so when a professional sports team runs(operates)... what professional sports teams do, when they operate this doping program for the A team, will they leave a paper trail to indict them?

you have presumed they will be like a hospital with paperwork, or a professional organisation with a professional guild supervising standards revoking practicing licences etc.

Well, they cant, and they wont, because why would one leave a paper trail of evidence to convict themselves?

that is the fallacy. The paper trail is not gonna exist. Betsy Andreu said, something about the insulin packets and blood refuse towels driven 60 miles away to be disposed of (by USPS), and was shaking her head in written word, about Team Sky stupidity about thinking they will get away with it...

Well, they did get away with it...

They will just be smarter on keeping their non-kosher operations out of the public eye, and no more trumpeting their marginal gains heist strategy...

edit: typo
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Re:

Dan2016 said:
Yup, it's hilarious. :D

According to Sunday Times, source to David Walsh The Golden Truthseeker, 60 - 70 vials of Kenalog were delivered to Sky HQ in 2011.

So UKAD have seen large quantities of the same drug now, 2016/17.
Remember, no records kept. UKAD have actually seen this stock of drugs in person. So it seems fair to assume Sky have had a large yearly order of Kenalog for years now.

C*nts. :)

Kellogg's #ftw

Kellogg%2527s+logo+2012.png
 
Jul 21, 2016
913
0
0
Visit site
Journalist Jeremy Whittle on BBC radio 5 now (was he a Sky fanboy clown journo or a good'un?):

(paraphrasing)
''I am 100% sure this is going to get worse and more revelations are going to come out''

Asked why: ''Sapstead/UKAD are continuing to investigate. And I spoke personally to Damian Collins and CMSC are delaying publishing their findings until at least after the Parliamentary recess (Easter, 16th April) as they continue to investigate''.

What about Brailsford?: "His position is untenable. Staff and riders are giving the public impression they are behind him but behind the scenes they are not. He cannot last''.

I got the impression, reading between lines, that he *knows* the revelations still to come, but I might be misreading.

Plenty entertainment still to come it seems. :)
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Re:

sniper said:
Wheels are coming off now.

Yes it's the tip of the iceberg.
Aicar, microdosing EPO, gummibears, HGH, motirized wheels, full Monty. From BC track to road and back. Staff including soigneurs and mechanics, all with one goal. Cheat and win.


Gillan1967 well done for digging that up.
Hilarious.

Walsh doing everything to safe face. Not gonna work.

you forget GW-501516 and lipotropin

it will be funnier when the knighthoods get revoked. if that is the technical name.

then can someone please do me a favour and bring me the justice of copying/quoting all the satire posts from blackcatthirdperson where they mentioned Gordonstoun muscular christianity oxbridge rowing boat races bullingdon club harrow etc.

Because when the satire was seen in the full light of day, the moderators would never have banned me for six freekin months when I was right all along, I brought the funnies and laffs[sic]

edit: moderators reckon this post is not within the regulations. But I think I paid a high penance for speaking the truth. just my opinion.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Re:

Dan2016 said:
Journalist Jeremy Whittle on BBC radio 5 now (was he a Sky fanboy clown journo or a good'un?):

(paraphrasing)
''I am 100% sure this is going to get worse and more revelations are going to come out''

Asked why: ''Sapstead/UKAD are continuing to investigate. And I spoke personally to Damian Collins and CMSC are delaying publishing their findings until at least after the Parliamentary recess (Easter, 16th April) as they continue to investigate''.

What about Brailsford?: "His position is untenable. Staff and riders are giving the public impression they are behind him but behind the scenes they are not. He cannot last''.

I got the impression, reading between lines, that he *knows* the revelations still to come, but I might be misreading.

Plenty entertainment still to come it seems. :)

when the motor use comes out this will be jimmy savile level hand wringing innit

people knew, and went along with the BS and clapped Britain winning golds and Tours

saville-370439.jpg
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Re:

yaco said:
Question for Blackcat - As each day unfolds the similarities between the Sky Jiffy bag and the EFC 34 are unerring - Give me your opinion ?

I need to post again that Dr Freeman will be the ' fall guy ' for this episode - UKAD by publically leaking details of an on-going investigation are lining up Freeman to be charged with trafficking in prohibited substances.

As much as everyone thinks I am anti-British, and anti-Froome/Wiggins, and anti-Sky I am not.

because, it is my opinion, they are zero different.

put on the JohnNash economic Game Theory lens...

the only reason they are different, is because they have the resources behind them.

Switch Edita Rumsas, for Motoman/MichelleCound/Cope.

Switch Raimondas Rumsas, to the same circumstances, of Wiggins/Froome or Armstrong/Beloki/Ullrich. Rumsas wins multiple yellow jerseys too.

Essendon, were just brought PEDs inhouse, in a more professional institutional structural program. Now, West Coast had something with Dean Capobianco's trainer in the late 80s and early 90s. Carlton(Carlton!) had a bodybuilding trainer who owns bodybuilding gyms, hardcore gyms, Tony Doherty! Probably Hawthorn had something going on in the 80s. Essendon was merely the structural program evolving. Soccer in Europe have had it for nigh on fifteen years before Hird ever became coach.

the paradox is, the Insider rule, they do nothing wrong, but the Outsider rule, where they have to navigate society's norms, criminal law, government supervision, PR, and fan support, that is a paradox that cannot possibly navigate, even Rudolph Nuryev walking and dancing the tightrope could not.

yes, I see parallels. I also do not think they are fundamentally any different to any other team. Even Essendon bringing it in house. I am assuming you are the Yaco on Bigfooty I speak to, well, if so, you tell me how Essendon are different from Port Adelaide and their Liverpool fitness trainer, Burgess, when he had them running on top of the ground, lean, losing weight, looked like Die Manneshaft. And North Melbourne have this 'magical' hamstring PhD physiotherapist. hehehehe

It is everyone.
 
Jul 21, 2016
913
0
0
Visit site
Re: Sky

blackcat said:

one glaring fallacy LS.

your premise is this is an operation cosisting with the confines of normal social behaviour and life supervision.

this is false.

this is cycling, it must be seen thru this lens.

so when a professional sports team runs(operates)... what professional sports teams do, when they operate this doping program for the A team, will they leave a paper trail to indict them?

you have presumed they will be like a hospital with paperwork, or a professional organisation with a professional guild supervising standards revoking practicing licences etc.

Well, they cant, and they wont, because why would one leave a paper trail of evidence to convict themselves?

that is the fallacy. The paper trail is not gonna exist. Betsy Andreu said, something about the insulin packets and blood refuse towels driven 60 miles away to be disposed of, and was shaking her head in written word, about Team Sky stupidity about thinking they will get away with it...

Well, they did get away with it...

They will just be smarter on keeping their non-kosher operations out of the public eye, and no more trumpeting their marginal gains heist strategy...

(If you don't mind me sticking my beak in)...I think the premise is that it *should* be 'an operation cosisting with the confines of normal social behaviour and life supervision'.
(even though I don't know what 'cosisting' means. scratchingheadface)

Yes they don't do so.
Yes they should do so.
Yes they should get spanked by Daddy State when they're caught cos they're naughty lying ****. Skyarelying*****face


I might have completely misunderstood your points though. i'vetakentoomuchcrackface wotsthemeaningoflifeface
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Re: Sky

Dan2016 said:
blackcat said:

one glaring fallacy LS.

your premise is this is an operation cosisting with the confines of normal social behaviour and life supervision.

this is false.

this is cycling, it must be seen thru this lens.

so when a professional sports team runs(operates)... what professional sports teams do, when they operate this doping program for the A team, will they leave a paper trail to indict them?

you have presumed they will be like a hospital with paperwork, or a professional organisation with a professional guild supervising standards revoking practicing licences etc.

Well, they cant, and they wont, because why would one leave a paper trail of evidence to convict themselves?

that is the fallacy. The paper trail is not gonna exist. Betsy Andreu said, something about the insulin packets and blood refuse towels driven 60 miles away to be disposed of, and was shaking her head in written word, about Team Sky stupidity about thinking they will get away with it...

Well, they did get away with it...

They will just be smarter on keeping their non-kosher operations out of the public eye, and no more trumpeting their marginal gains heist strategy...

(If you don't mind me sticking my beak in)...I think the premise is that it *should* be 'an operation cosisting with the confines of normal social behaviour and life supervision'.
(even though I don't know what 'cosisting' means. scratchingheadface)

Yes they don't do so.
Yes they should do so.
Yes they should get spanked by Daddy State when they're caught cos they're naughty lying *****. Skyarelying*****face


I might have completely misunderstood your points though. i'vetakentoomuchcrackface wotsthemeaningoflifeface
i should have written 'existing within'... these bounds. What I think I was about to write was "consisting of...." then my thought track went aside
 
Re: Re:

blackcat said:
yaco said:
Question for Blackcat - As each day unfolds the similarities between the Sky Jiffy bag and the EFC 34 are unerring - Give me your opinion ?

I need to post again that Dr Freeman will be the ' fall guy ' for this episode - UKAD by publically leaking details of an on-going investigation are lining up Freeman to be charged with trafficking in prohibited substances.

As much as everyone thinks I am anti-British, and anti-Froome/Wiggins, and anti-Sky I am not.

because, it is my opinion, they are zero different.

put on the JohnNash economic Game Theory lens...

the only reason they are different, is because they have the resources behind them.

Switch Edita Rumsas, for Motoman/MichelleCound/Cope.

Switch Raimondas Rumsas, to the same circumstances, of Wiggins/Froome or Armstrong/Beloki/Ullrich. Rumsas wins multiple yellow jerseys too.

Essendon, were just bring PEDs more inhouse, in a more professional institutional structural program. Now, West Coast had something with Dean Capobianco's trainer in the late 80s and early 90s. Carlton(Carlton!) had a bodybuilding trainer who owns bodybuilding gyms, hardcore gyms, Tony Doherty! Probably Hawthorn had something going on in the 80s. Essendon was merely the structural program evolving. Soccer in Europe have had it for nigh on fifteen years before Hird ever became coach.

the paradox is, the Insider rule, they do nothing wrong, but the Outsider rule, where they have to navigate society's norms, criminal law, government supervision, PR, and fan support, that is a paradox that cannot possibly navigate, even Rudolph Nuryev walking and dancing the tightrope could not.

yes, I see parallels. I also do not think they are fundamentally any different to any other team. Even Essendon bringing it in house. I am assuming you are the Yaco on Bigfooty I speak to, well, if so, you tell me how Essendon are different from Port Adelaide and their Liverpool fitness trainer, Burgess, when he had them running on top of the ground, lean, losing weight, looked like Die Manneshaft. And North Melbourne have this 'magical' hamstring PhD physiotherapist. hehehehe

It is everyone.

Yes it's me from BF - It's good to see and discuss Anti-Doping from the prism of different sports - Similarities between Sky and EFC34 are

- Whistleblower/ behind the scenes murmurings led off investigation
- Rogue scientist/doctor
- Missing or incomplete paperwork
- Recrediting of banned substances to supplier

I have a different spin on this saga - I believe it's more damaging for BC as they seem to be front and centre in organising and storing the substances - You marry this up to how British track cyclists are ho hum between the Olympics and then go gangbusters at the Olympics - I can see a reduction in lottery money going to BC.
 
Re: Sky

Libertine Seguros said:
JRanton said:
I can't believe how overblown this has been in the UK press. The alleged offence is basically that Freeman and Wiggins didn't wait a few hours until one minute past midnight to carry out the triamcinolone treatment. It isn't a banned drug out of competition and the race was over when Wiggins was treated with it.

Whoever made this allegation obviously had a massive axe to grind. Probably some gimp upset about the zero tolerance policy or Sky's outspoken views on doping.
At this point, though, the problems with the story are so many that it has become irrelevant whether the infamous jiffy bag was actually something illegal or not. It really doesn't matter now even if it was fiumicil because the problems posed by the handling of the issue are so massive as to hugely incriminate Brailsford, Sky and BC anyway.

- Firstly, the purpose of the trip. Whatever the substance was, the team clearly cared more about the substance and its secrecy than they did about Cope, hanging him out to dry as a convenient patsy asking him to lie to customs.
- The very fact that they used an employee of the publicly-funded British Cycling enterprise as a mule for the privately-funded commercial enterprise Team Sky is a significant problem of governance that had been raised right from the beginning. I've been commenting on it on the forum since back in 2010 and I'm far from alone - including official documents raising the issue of the blurred lines between the nationally-based public organ and the international commercial team.
- Then to add to this you have the additional problem that we are talking a coach of the women's team not coaching the women but instead their resources being driven towards the men's team, including Cope admitting to spending a month motorpacing Wiggins in training sessions. This is not his job, and the fact that the women were organizing their own training camps and paying their own expenses to travel to the World Championships while Cope was ferrying packets to and fro for Team Sky is a significant issue in its own right.
- The incredibly inelegant attempt to pin the package on Emma Pooley which would have been pretty questionable had Cope stuck around in France for a while rather than just dropping the package off and returning again. As it was, it was a pretty disgusting attempt to disguise the misuse of Cope and deflect blame away from the potentially guilty parties by implicating an innocent bystander, who also happens to be one of those who has been most wronged by the point above about the women being hung out to dry by BC. The fact that such a transparent lie made it to the press before any fact checking could be done (literally, disproving it takes under 30 seconds using a results aggregator like CQ ranking) also shows the contempt in which they held the intelligence of the press and the general public.
- Cope had no idea what women's races even existed and admitted to running this courier service on a number of other occasions (the number of which he has revised downwards as the story has continued).
- Brailsford trying to sell Lawton a "more positive" story and buy him off with merchandise and bike rides. Enough said.
- The team purchased fiumicil abroad on a number of occasions, so why would they have needed this particular batch of it so urgently that it had to be a "drop everything and deliver today" situation to carry it halfway across Europe? Even if the substance WAS triamcinolone, why did they then lie to the enquiry and say it was fiumicil? Is the concern about the supposed midnight limit so severe that it merits lying to a parliamentary enquiry through your teeth?

Once you move past the package, however, there are a number of procedural problems that have been raised from the subsequent enquiry statements.
- Brailsford claimed never to have heard of the substances in question when first asked about them. Now he claims to have been injected with it. I don't know about you, but if I have a problem which requires something being injected into me, I want to know what it is and why it's being administered. I may not be familiar with the substance's name, but I want to know what it does. And I'll know what the substance is afterward.
- Freeman supposedly didn't back up his medical records for three whole years, if the Sky story is to be considered correct. If this is the case, then there is a case of gross negligence which demonstrates an absolutely fundamental lack of proper governance. How in god's name has this not been picked up in an audit? Or if it has, how has Freeman not been disciplined for it? In my profession, if stuff is not improperly stored and there's a data protection breach, it's a big deal. And you have to assume - and indeed it has been confirmed by people on the forum who work in the profession - that in the medical profession it's an even bigger deal because it includes a lot more sensitive personal data. Three entire years of not backing up your files should be grounds for firing long before it gets to that point.
- If Freeman did back up his medical records, where have the backup copies gone?
- Who was keeping watch over Freeman, who did the auditing, who was responsible for governance that allowed such a dreadful error to occur as medical records for an entire three year period (minimum) going missing? Because if they've allowed this to occur due to improper governance or insufficient checking of the records, they have not exercised appropriate control over the staff, so would be guilty either of negligence or of being complicit in deceit and they need to go too.
- If Freeman has been massively over-ordering pharmaceutical products, then what happens to the surplus?
- If as has been stated to the enquiry these products have been purchased for BC and thereby passed on to Team Sky, BC effectively act as wholesaler of controlled substances. This is tightly regulated, and BC would therefore need to have very strictly monitored records to make sure that this is all done above board. Is this in place?
- If BC are wholesaling these products to Team Sky, it raises a very valid possibility that, indirectly, British taxpayer money is going to providing controlled substances not just to riders for British Cycling, but foreign riders from the commercial Team Sky, i.e. not under BC jurisdiction. If so, this is a further potential legal issue - again like with USPS one of the main issues is the public nature of one of the organs in the arrangement which raises more questions about the morality of the operation because public money is involved.


Frankly, to believe this is a nothing incident blown up into something big is to miss the point. To not be implicated in some serious wrongdoing (and some of the potential, and even likely, wrongdoing as listed above is very, very serious indeed) and for it all to be innocent mistakes and misunderstanding, you must credit Team Sky with very little intelligence and business acumen at all, because you'd basically be saying that they've bumbled their way, Keystone Kops-like, through pro cycling, giving pro speeches about the level of professionalism they're bringing to the sport whilst relying entirely on blind luck, throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, not overseeing their staff and exposing themselves to all manner of errors and omissions issues, just relying on a combination of hope and beginner's luck that they'll succeed. That they've managed to order wrong documents, fail to audit people for three years (and then, once the laptop has been stolen, fail to take action against the culprit of the failed compliance processes for a further three years) and demonstrate silent movie slapstick levels of incompetence, and yet run the most successful operation in the sport. Brailsford couldn't have got to where he is being such a bumbling buffoon that he didn't know any of this, and was able to so successfully control the message but couldn't keep any control whatsoever over his staff over such a period of time. It's either stupid or disingenuous to believe that they could be that incompetent and yet that successful in that manner, and that's why even if the actual incident that has triggered this investigation may be minor, the fallout from it IS a big deal and damn well should be. Personally, I believe you're smarter than that.
I think Libertine wrote this before the news of Freeman receiving a supposedly erroneous shipment of Testostorone patches in 2011, so I wanted to make sure this was added to the most complete rundown of the Sky/Brailsford/Freeman saga that I've seen posted in the forum to date. Thanks Libertine! :)

It's amazing that of all the tens of thousands of medications in circulation in 2011 it just so happens that a mistake was made by an unnamed medical supplier in that they sent a shipment of Testosterone patches to Team Sky for no apparent reason. :rolleyes:

Of course, it was sent back because we all know that there's no good that could come from Team Sky possessing Testosterone patches. Totally legit... :eek:
 
Re: Re:

blackcat said:
sniper said:
Wheels are coming off now.

Yes it's the tip of the iceberg.
Aicar, microdosing EPO, gummibears, HGH, motirized wheels, full Monty. From BC track to road and back. Staff including soigneurs and mechanics, all with one goal. Cheat and win.


Gillan1967 well done for digging that up.
Hilarious.

Walsh doing everything to safe face. Not gonna work.

you forget GW-501516 and lipotropin

it will be funnier when the knighthoods get revoked. if that is the technical name.

then can someone please do me a favour and bring me the justice of copying/quoting all the satire posts from blackcatthirdperson where they mentioned Gordonstoun muscular christianity oxbridge rowing boat races bullingdon club harrow etc.

Because when the satire was seen in the full light of day, the moderators would never have banned me for six freekin months when I was right all along, I brought the funnies and laffs[sic]
You were not banned for:
"satire posts from blackcatthirdperson where they mentioned Gordonstoun muscular christianity oxbridge rowing boat races bullingdon club harrow etc."
But you know this already.

Your ban was for repeatedly ignoring warnings and bans about posting crude, vulgar, NSFW, and pornographic comments that have since been mostly removed.

Asking members to aggregate your comments to prove that you've been treated unfairly will not show the actual posts that you were banned for, but you know that too.

If you have a gripe or concern about being banned for six months you can post it in the "members suspension appreciation/depreciation" thread. Posting about your ban in threads other than the members app/dep thread is not permitted, per forum policy.
 
May 6, 2016
224
0
0
Visit site
Re: Sky

If the Testosterone patches were sent by accident, and it's difficult to believe that they were, then it's extremely doubtful that it was an isolated incident of Testosterone usage.
 
Feb 23, 2011
618
0
0
Visit site
Re: Sky

Zypherov said:
If the Testosterone patches were sent by accident, and it's difficult to believe that they were, then it's extremely doubtful that it was an isolated incident of Testosterone usage.

So who is Alistair Campbell going to wheel out tomorrow as part of project bookend:

Bookend the time frame
Bookend those that had knowledge in management
Bookend the whole thing so Sky/BC can move on

Saturday was Brailsfraud
Sunday was Steve (who heads up the medical team) Peters
Monday?? Ellingworth, Kerrison, Portal