Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Deloitte replaces PwC as Ineos auditor:
The UK’s large accounting firms are increasingly concerned about the reputational impact of their largest clients following scrutiny on the sector in the wake of several corporate collapses and accounting scandals. The Big Four — PwC, Deloitte, EY and KPMG — have begun sweeping reviews of clients this summer to weed out problematic or unprofitable work, which could lead to a purge of risky audits.
PwC publicly disagreed with an Ineos plan "to move the tax residence of Jim Ratcliffe, the billionaire founder of Ineos, and two other directors to Monaco, saving up to £4bn."

When even PwC thinks you're too dodge to deal with...oh dear...

Edit: by coincidence, Deloitte also audit the Tour Racing Ltd accounts.
 
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Professor Kieran Clarke at Oxford. Completely independent of any cycling team.
HVMN's CEO recently said teams had access to Ketones before HVMN deal with Oxford Uni in 2018 to sell it commercially. Kieran Clarke confirmed people had purchased Ketone Ester for years since 2012 directly from Oxford Uni, they just had to ask and sign an NDA (it's a DARPA project) and she said lots of people had used them. WADA have been looking at Ketone Ester since 2010. It would seem rowing and cycling were the very early adopters and the first sports used for performance trials from ~2009 onwards after FDA GRAS approval so I assume British Cycling & British Rowing might have also been early customers, given they would have known the results of the trials before their rivals.

Interestingly Sunweb & Ineos both have said there is an efficacy issue using them. More about Performance efficacy for Sunweb and Nutritional efficacy from Ineos to the point of being a disadvantage, but no real context. Given both are GC teams, I read that to mean perhaps over 3 weeks something changes if you use them continually. Perhaps that explains JA's crash in form in 3rd week and Bernal & Thomas's rise who knows? However there's 2 kinds of Ester on the market - BHB Monoester & AcAc Diester and they have very different characteristics for use in sport so which one Sunweb is talking about is not known and as Kieren Clarke also says, there is no correct way to use them, you have to work it out for yourself what works and what doesn't.
 
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HVMN's CEO recently said teams had access to Ketones before HVMN deal with Oxford Uni in 2018 to sell it commercially. Kieran Clarke confirmed people had purchased Ketone Ester for years since 2012 directly from Oxford Uni, they just had to ask and sign an NDA (it's a DARPA project) and she said lots of people had used them. WADA have been looking at Ketone Ester since 2010. It would seem rowing and cycling were the very early adopters and the first sports used for performance trials from ~2009 onwards after FDA GRAS approval so I assume British Cycling & British Rowing might have also been early customers, given they would have known the results of the trials before their rivals.

Interestingly Sunweb & Ineos both have said there is an efficacy issue using them. More about Performance efficacy for Sunweb and Nutritional efficacy from Ineos to the point of being a disadvantage, but no real context. Given both are GC teams, I read that to mean perhaps over 3 weeks something changes if you use them continually. Perhaps that explains JA's crash in form in 3rd week and Bernal & Thomas's rise who knows? However there's 2 kinds of Ester on the market - BHB Monoester & AcAc Diester and they have very different characteristics for use in sport so which one Sunweb is talking about is not known and as Kieren Clarke also says, there is no correct way to use them, you have to work it out for yourself what works and what doesn't.
I was responding to a post that said it ketone esters were developed in conjunction with Loughborough and another that inferred they were developed with involvement with Team Sky. Neither true. Kieran Clarke's department and spin off company developed them.

There's no credible proof they work as yet.

Team Ineos don't use them.
 
I was responding to a post that said it ketone esters were developed in conjunction with Loughborough and another that inferred they were developed with involvement with Team Sky. Neither true. Kieran Clarke's department and spin off company developed them.

There's no credible proof they work as yet.

Team Ineos don't use them.
I totally agree. I've tried the HVMN drink and about 20 seconds in a 10 mile TT, but that can happen wekk-to-week on the same course anyway. I think Team Sky did research into them, but yes, they don't use them and their nutritionist said there were more predictable gains from other nutrition strategies in the race.
 
Seems like British cycling just fizzled out after the strange disappearance of Doc Freeman and Wiggins odd rebirth riding shotgun on a moto for Eurosport. Was it all just a Dave vanity project for a brief moment to collect some quid. OBEs and like US cycling before it, now all vanishes into the dustbin. Like it ever had a future to begin with...RIP marginal gains?
 
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Seems like British Cycling just fizzled out after the strange disappearance of Doc Freeman and Wiggins odd rebirth riding shotgun on a moto for Eurosport.
How are you defining fizzled out? They performed well at the last Olympics. They're on schedule to perform well at the next.
Was it all just a Dave vanity project for a brief moment to collect some quid.
The bangles and baubles delivered suggest the funders got bangs for their bucks, so how is that a vanity project for Brailsford?

And British Cycling ≠ Team Ineos.
 
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How are you defining fizzled out? They performed well at the last Olympics. They're on schedule to perform well at the next.

The bangles and baubles delivered suggest the funders got bangs for their bucks, so how is that a vanity project for Brailsford?

And British Cycling ≠ Team Ineos.
I see he has edited to take out the captial "C" so he must mean British cycling in general. Perhaps that's supposed to mean Team Ineos after all, but if so it's not all that I see on the cycling scene in GB. If it's Team Ineos, haven't they provided opportunities for both British cyclists and those of other nationalities to do well on the international scene this year? Other than the mention of Freeman, where's the Clinic angle?
 
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Sorry if this has already been discussed, I try to resist coming here! :)

If this team has the magic sauce, you would would think that guys wouldn't leave because there are no greener pastures, and because they know that they won't be able to compete once they leave.
 
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Sorry if this has already been discussed, I try to resist coming here! :)

If this team has the magic sauce, you would would think that guys wouldn't leave because there are no greener pastures, and because they know that they won't be able to compete once they leave.
Only if they have it exclusively, to the point where it is not available anywhere else, and nobody else knows how to use it.

It wasn't the case with USPS, yet riders who left didn't always fire like they did riding for Lance...
 
Sorry if this has already been discussed, I try to resist coming here! :)

If this team has the magic sauce, you would would think that guys wouldn't leave because there are no greener pastures, and because they know that they won't be able to compete once they leave.
I think that most don't leave voluntarily. Either they are given indications that they won't be resigned when their contract ends or are informed that they will need to take a lesser role at less pay if they want to stay. The team moves on to developing other prospects, leaving some riders with a choice to continue with the team with fewer opportunities for themselves. With Sky it seems that some riders are signed with big expectations and often they don't live up to them. They are given the choice to scale back their personal ambitions or move on.
 
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For a Team Sky/Ineos or USPS to continue their respective dominations, they need more than just the best drugs and doctors. They also need allies in key positions who will provide top cover.
This seems far more likely than magic sauce.

People also leave (mostly) due to contract opportunities or limitations. More money is often a bigger incentive than any team benefit, including a program, I would think. At least if cyclists act like any other sportsmen.
 
This seems far more likely than magic sauce.

People also leave (mostly) due to contract opportunities or limitations. More money is often a bigger incentive than any team benefit, including a program, I would think. At least if cyclists act like any other sportsmen.
Poels left so that he could have leadership, but if he knows that Sky has the BETTER special sauce (as many in this thread profess), he knows that his leadership will be for the leftovers behind Ineos.
 
Poels left so that he could have leadership, but if he knows that Sky has the BETTER special sauce (as many in this thread profess), he knows that his leadership will be for the leftovers behind Ineos.
Ah, says he, donning his tinfoil hat, but Poels will be riding for Skineos refugee Rod Ellingworth, alongside the Skineos refugee Mikel Landa, and possibly the Skineos refugee Mark Cavendish. And with access to the secret of Slovenia's sudden cycling success. It's gonna be bleedin' mayhem.
 
Ah, says he, donning his tinfoil hat, but Poels will be riding for Skineos refugee Rod Ellingworth, alongside the Skineos refugee Mikel Landa, and possibly the Skineos refugee Mark Cavendish. And with access to the secret of Slovenia's sudden cycling success. It's gonna be bleedin' mayhem.
o_O That's funny! I question the conspiracy theorist, and you point to MY tin foil hat ...while donning a tin foil suit.
 
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Poels left so that he could have leadership, but if he knows that Sky has the BETTER special sauce (as many in this thread profess), he knows that his leadership will be for the leftovers behind Ineos.
Leadership certainly can be an incentive. Don't know his contract details, but wonder if he's making more now. Often the case when a prominent rider leaves a team for a leadership role.

Seemingly if riders are on a program, they would know a great many details about how that program was applied. Not perfectly, and they're not doctors, but they have to know what "stuff" works. So he doesn't "know" what the results will be–if he was on a program at Sky, he may well believe it can be replicated elsewhere.

And again, if he's leaving for more money, it may not matter that much if he thinks he's going to be more successful or have the same success. Gotta feed the family first. Cycling doesn't last that long, and for a lot of athletes, you get what you can get while you can get it.

Also possible that he doesn't think Ineos are getting the air cover from above which they may certainly have been getting under the previous regime. At which point some potential advantages of staying are gone.

The idea that they have some magic potion isn't one I adhere to. Other explanations seem to comport more with the facts on the ground, IMO.

These supposed allies couldn't even keep Froome's salbutamol test confidential, as it should have been. Do you really think they presided over a ten year conspiracy? :rolleyes:
The idea that because one got out, if follows that none were suppressed isn't logical.

Beyond that, there is the obvious that the timing coincides fairly well with Uncle Cookson heading out the door.
 
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The idea that because one got out, if follows that none were suppressed isn't logical.

Beyond that, there is the obvious that the timing coincides fairly well with Uncle Cookson heading out the door.
And since Cookson left they have won three out of six Grand Tours with three different riders. More successful than ever. So who are these allies covering things up. They won the Tour under three different UCI regimes, so it can't be them. Who else? The Illuminati? The Masons? The CIA? Penry, the mild-mannered janitor?
 
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