Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[wansteadimp]

Would you say it's reasonable to think that since Froome was caught doping that he and Sky might have been a tad more careful? Seems fairly obvious. Is there any doubt about it? Maybe stop and think a bit and relax with the hyperbole.

Have they dialled it back or has their season been screwed by Bernal's crash pre Giro, Froome's crash and Thomas falling in a vat of beer?

If Bernal had ridden the Giro and Froome ridden the Tour would we still think Sky had a bad year? Whatifs, but I'm not sure we can say they've gone easy on the dope.

 

[red_flanders]

Have they dialled it back or has their season been screwed by Bernal's crash pre Giro, Froome's crash and Thomas falling in a vat of beer?

If Bernal had ridden the Giro and Froome ridden the Tour would we still think Sky had a bad year? Whatifs, but I'm not sure we can say they've gone easy on the dope.

No idea, I wasn't suggested anyone scaled back, just that after getting busted (or whatever language the faithful want to use) that they obviously had to be more careful. Definitely their season was massively altered by Froome's crash.

Would love to hear more about the vat of beer.

 

[70kmph]

In Yorkshire the Ineos chief Radcliffe threatened the team would be disbanded, you never saw the Murdocks saying anything remotely like that, it was a full on arms race

 

[fmk_RoI]

In Yorkshire the Ineos chief Radcliffe threatened the team would be disbanded, you never saw the Murdocks saying anything remotely like that, it was a full on arms race

Just about every team owner has at some point or another made that comment. JV perhaps most foolishly, given the speed with which it came back to bite him on the bum. It's a meaningless commitment. I'm pretty sure Brailsford himself has said doping would be the end of the team. Did James Murdoch/Jeremy Darroch really not say that too?

 

[F_Cance]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188763293311209472

View: https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1188763293311209472


covering it up by all means

 

[CTQ]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188763293311209472

View: https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1188763293311209472


covering it up by all means

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188766552331640833

View: https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1188766552331640833?s=20

 

[fmk_RoI]

A lot of sound and fury at the MPTS/ Freeman hearings, but not much light. To try and step back a bit from that: what was actually happening inside Team Sky in 2011?

The team is a year old and its first year has been hard on the ego. It hasn't met the expectations it set for itself. In Moore's Sky's the Limit, we see 2010 ending with Brailsford saying he'll have to consider some of the expectations he himself set, such as ZTP, and offering ambiguity on where the ethical line he wouldn't cross actually is. In Wiggins's My Time, we see Lombardia ending with him down in his cups, half-cut in a half-finished hotel, having walked out of the team lodgings.

What responses do we see?

• We see Wiggins getting a bollocking and told to either man up or step down
• We see two doctors, Leinders and Bartolucci, being brought in toward the end of 2010
• We see one doctor, Hulse, being let go
• We see an IV récup programme agreed for the Giro but the no needles policy scuppering it
• We see the TUE system being gamed for Wiggins, with regard to his Triamcinolone
• We see a box of Testogel sachets arriving in Manchester
• We see a BC staffer sent to courier a Jiffy bag
• We see more pressure added to the boiler with Wiggins's performance at the Tour
• We see Froome facing into having to find a new team for 2012, or take a pay cut, only to pull a rabbit out of the hat at the Vuelta

What else do we know was happening, specifically within that narrow time frame, the end of the 2010 Tour through to the end of the 2011 season?

 

[Breezy1985]

A lot of sound and fury at the MPTS/ Freeman hearings, but not much light. To try and step back a bit from that: what was actually happening inside Team Sky in 2011?

The team is a year old and its first year has been hard on the ego. It hasn't met the expectations it set for itself. In Moore's Sky's the Limit, we see 2010 ending with Brailsford saying he'll have to consider some of the expectations he himself set, such as ZTP, and offering ambiguity on where the ethical line he wouldn't cross actually is. In Wiggins's My Time, we see Lombardia ending with him down in his cups, half-cut in a half-finished hotel, having walked out of the team lodgings.

What responses do we see?

• We see Wiggins getting a bollocking and told to either man up or step down
• We see two doctors, Leinders and Bartolucci, being brought in toward the end of 2010
• We see one doctor, Hulse, being let go
• We see an IV récup programme agreed for the Giro but the no needles policy scuppering it
• We see the TUE system being gamed for Wiggins, with regard to his Triamcinolone
• We see a box of Testogel sachets arriving in Manchester
• We see a BC staffer sent to courier a Jiffy bag
• We see more pressure added to the boiler with Wiggins's performance at the Tour
• We see Froome facing into having to find a new team for 2012, or take a pay cut, only to pull a rabbit out of the hat at the Vuelta

What else do we know was happening, specifically within that narrow time frame, the end of the 2010 Tour through to the end of the 2011 season?

Wiggins also lied about the use of needles for his TUE

 

[fmk_RoI]

Looks like I forgot the Viagra. Anyone got a specific date range for when that was being used? There was some in the delivery that contained the Testogel sachets, so it must have still been happening early in 2011, yes? This was actually wrong, Peters's memory which Burt corrected.

I'll go back and edit it in later.

 

[samhocking]

Viagra was alleged to have been tested by Sky at an altitude camp in 2010 to see if it could increase oxygen diffusion at altitude but I think it was reported at the time that they scrapped the trial as results were inconclusive. Obviously its use on the track is well known in mid 2000s where it was called Vitamin V. Later in cycling we saw Moletta from Gerolsteiner and his Dad found with 72 Viagra pills in Giro 2008 with an unknown fluid and needles suggesting maybe it was also used via IV for recovery perhaps? WADA decided to not ban it in 2008 also.

 

[red_flanders]

Viagra was alleged to have been tested by Sky at an altitude camp in 2010 to see if it could increase oxygen diffusion at altitude but I think it was reported at the time that they scrapped the trial as results were inconclusive. Obviously its use on the track is well known in mid 2000s where it was called Vitamin V. Later in cycling we saw Moletta from Gerolsteiner and his Dad found with 72 Viagra pills in Giro 2008 with an unknown fluid and needles suggesting maybe it was also used via IV for recovery perhaps? WADA decided to not ban it in 2008 also.

Never heard this before, certainly interesting if not surprising...except that there are several studies already confirming inconsistent results in performance of sildenafil at altitude. Works really well for some people, not so well for others.

Where did you get this information? Do you have a link to where this was reported?

 

[samhocking]

Never heard this before, certainly interesting if not surprising...except that there are several studies already confirming inconsistent results in performance of sildenafil at altitude. Works really well for some people, not so well for others.

Where did you get this information? Do you have a link to where this was reported?

I can only assume Wiggins weakness (similar to Valverde) is once they're above >1800m they fall of an aerobic cliff. Hence why Froome was waiting for him in 2012. From what I've read it works but only taken and then used at altitude and then negatively/inconsistently once back to sea level again. I think the first people to really test it in terms of performance enhancement was dog racers and Everest mountain climbers.
For links, there was rumor in 2010 that Sky were experimenting with all sorts of legal substances (obviously they had an NDA with Oxford Uni for Ketones along with British Rowing iirc). I have no links, only my memory. It surfaced again during jiffygate here though re. 2010:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/team-sky-tried-out-viagra-pdxw0xxkg

 

[red_flanders]

I can only assume Wiggins weakness (similar to Valverde) is once they're above >1800m they fall of an aerobic cliff. Hence why Froome was waiting for him in 2012. From what I've read it works but only taken and then used at altitude and then negatively/inconsistently once back to sea level again. I think the first people to really test it in terms of performance enhancement was dog racers and Everest mountain climbers.
For links, there was rumor in 2010 that Sky were experimenting with all sorts of legal substances (obviously they had an NDA with Oxford Uni for Ketones along with British Rowing iirc). I have no links, only my memory. It surfaced again during jiffygate here though re. 2010:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/team-sky-tried-out-viagra-pdxw0xxkg

Thanks for the link. I have to say, that team is just a full on clown show. I'm not sure why a rational thinker would simply accept the assertion that they limited themselves to legal substance experimentation, but whatever floats one's boat, I suppose.

 

[samhocking]

Thanks for the link. I have to say, that team is just a full on clown show. I'm not sure why a rational thinker would simply accept the assertion that they limited themselves to legal substance experimentation, but whatever floats one's boat, I suppose.

Mostly a clown show because of continual investigation with nothing illegal found though. Clearly nobody is supporting the Suttons bullying though. Personally, from where cycling was when they founded it in the fallout of Armstrong and EPO positives a weekly occurrence, it's night and day and I'm more concerned the likes of FdeJ & AG2R still having clear-cut doping violations for EPO & Blood while MPCC founding teams and at the same time preaching to Sky to join as some kind of ethical anti-doping superiority is laughable! Then Teams founders like Bahrain's Borut Božič mixed up in Aderlass while Nibali in that team with a banned team mate too, I just think the heat only on Sky continually is rather upside down in logic.

 

[DanielSong39]

LOL, washing machine Dennis

I don't recall him ever sprinting at 100+ RPM with his elbows and knees pointing out

 

[Unchained]

Don't recall seeing any pro riders..podium or not using Viagra..or I hope not

 

[rick james]

LOL, washing machine Dennis

I don't recall him ever sprinting at 100+ RPM with his elbows and knees pointing out

its hard to spot other riders when all your focus is on the big bad Brits...don't feel bad for missing him

 

[Zebadeedee]

A development, of sorts.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/former-sky-doctor-richard-freeman-set-to-face-charges-of-anti-doping-dhb2wkzvk

 

[yaco]

This was always a likely outcome - Anti-Doping authorities can be strict on support staff having banned substances at their work place.