Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[roundabout]

It's not really about Sky, but I've been thinking about the 2009 Sanremo and that finish in Aubenas.

 

[Square-pedaller]

"It would be great if it happened because it's another edition to this fairy-tale story," McQuaid told The Associated Press.

I thought the point about fairy-tales is that they are not true.

I don't believe in miracles either.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Assuming Sky is doping, do you guys think Cavendish is on the juice as well?

I have seen a lot of sprints the last three decades but sprinting like Cav, 500 metres from the finish line, twice in a row, I have never seen.

Notably, last year he was twice out of time in the mountains, hung on cars, riders, motors, this year little Cav was in front of the bus all the way...

Nice improvement, must be the 4 kilo he lost.

[thats just cynical]

He lost pure speed and gained a lot of recuperation. Sounds to me like clinic material.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Notably, last year he was twice out of time in the mountains, hung on cars, riders, motors, this year little Cav was in front of the bus all the way...

Now then...

There was much ado in the parish last year during the Giro when Cav was accused of hanging onto cars. I recall that despite a valiant effort by the accusers, no photgraphic evidence was ever presented. Ironically, if my memory serves me correctly, one of Cav's accusers in the peloton (Ventoso? Someone on Rojas' team, anyway) was caught "bang to rights" in a photo!

I am happy to be corrected on this. In Cav's shoes, I'd do the same...

Re the Tour, don't forget that the quality of the riders was higher (Berto and Schleck) and on the stages concerned, they went from a long way out, making the time-limit unusually hard to beat. The stage to Alpe D'Huez was a real stinker, since Berto rode it like a time-trial from the point the road first starting going up.

Cav has been getting accused of doping on several other Forums since he first started winning, so you're a bit behind the pace with this thought.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Assuming Sky is doping, do you guys think Cavendish is on the juice as well?

I wouldn't give Cave an automatic "pass" but I have to say he does look the real deal..struggles like fxxk on the big mountains, often looks knackered after the finish, hangs on cars a fair bit and one explanation regards his sprinting seemed credible to me. It suggested that Cav sprints very different to almost any other road sprinter, head low and not looking around much with a very small frontal area. When you consider that 80% of the resistance a rider faces is air that,s possibly a substantial advantage. He delivers best from a good fast lead out and that's not unlike points/ madison riding on the track were he first gained recognition.
Its also worth noting that Sky seem very willing to let him go elsewhere next season and its possible he,s not part of "the program" ,if there is one.
A strange , to my mind, position for a " Brit" team when he,s world champ and the winner of more tour stages than anyone else.
Like I said at the start, I'm not giving a pass but I think he,s credible.

 

[D-Queued]

I wouldn't give Cave an automatic "pass" but I have to say he does look the real deal..struggles like fxxk on the big mountains, often looks knackered after the finish, hangs on cars a fair bit and one explanation regards his sprinting seemed credible to me. It suggested that Cav sprints very different to almost any other road sprinter, head low and not looking around much with a very small frontal area. When you consider that 80% of the resistance a rider faces is air that,s possibly a substantial advantage. He delivers best from a good fast lead out and that's not unlike points/ madison riding on the track were he first gained recognition.
Its also worth noting that Sky seem very willing to let him go elsewhere next season and its possible he,s not part of "the program" ,if there is one.
A strange , to my mind, position for a " Brit" team when he,s world champ and the winner of more tour stages than anyone else.
Like I said at the start, I'm not giving a pass but I think he,s credible.

WTF?

Have you ever seen a bike race?

Cippo on the left, Robbie on the right

Perhaps you think these guys are riding with their hands on the tops.

Dave.

 

[Darryl Webster]

WTF?

Have you ever seen a bike race?

Cippo on the left, Robbie on the right

Perhaps you think these guys are riding with their hands on the tops.

Dave.

Now then DQ..I NEVER said he gets a pass..but I've watched his sprint, side on many times..not just the last throw over the line.
Its a theory that's been advanced , incidentaly not mine. It has a bit of credibility to it , well I thought so any way.
Take a look here for example :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc1yeX_7lWM

 

[taiwan]

Yeah you can see in some pictures that Cav is on the low side. Basically has his chin on the bars on some occasions. Then again he's quite short, so...

 

[the big ring]

I'm with Darryl on this one.

WTF?

Have you ever seen a bike race?

Perhaps you think these guys are riding with their hands on the tops.

Dave.

Not only have I seen a bike race, I've sprinted in one

Cav's sprinting position is alien-like in its difference. He's bigger than McEwen (171cm) in your sprinting photo above (throw photos are useless in this discussion) - check Cav's profile here for comparison:

The top of Mark's (175cm) helmet is in line with Matthew Goss' chin (178cm).

At TT speed, dropping your head (and pointing your aero helmet upwards) is a big aero no no. In a sprint, at 50% more speed, the aero advantage would be significant.

It seriously looks like sprinters are trying (and failing) to copy his technique now. I know I will be

 

[Darryl Webster]

Funnily enough he,s not unlike another Manxman, Steve Joughin from the 80,s who,s nick name was The Pocket Rocket.

"Joughin showed that he could beat some of the fastest Sprinters in the world. However his inability to climb restricted his Palmarès."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Joughin

 

[D-Queued]

...

Cav's sprinting position is alien-like in its difference. He's bigger than McEwen (171cm) in your sprinting photo above (throw photos are useless in this discussion) - check Cav's profile here for comparison:

...

The top of Mark's (175cm) helmet is in line with Matthew Goss' chin (178cm).

At TT speed, dropping your head (and pointing your aero helmet upwards) is a big aero no no. In a sprint, at 50% more speed, the aero advantage would be significant.

It seriously looks like sprinters are trying (and failing) to copy his technique now. I know I will be

Trying or failing?

Alien... where have I heard that before?

Biting your handlebars in a sprint is nothing new.

Steels looks even hugrier than Cipo here.

Or, how about the two on the left

Dave.

 

[the big ring]

Or, how about the two on the left

Dave.

Nope.

Like I said originally - photos of throws are no good in this discussion. You throw the bike forward and Mr Newton dictates that your body subsequently goes backwards. Your *** ends up off the back of the seat, and the only way for that to happen is for your head to be low.

The guys on the left would have thrown just before the line, and now as they cross the line, they are moving forward to sit down on the saddle again.

Sorry if this sounds like a Cav defence, but it's purely his sprinting style. It's way different, and I deliberately made the alien reference as it is that stark of a contrast, not coz doping allows him to get that low

Look at the video Darryl posted and compare the height of his head to his leadout when he launches - he'd fit it under the lead out's chin.

 

[the big ring]

This is a good example of the throw to the line technique and its effect on head height:

 

[DirtyWorks]

The plot thickens...

Unless Sky absolutely ruins their own chances at the road race, this sounds like it's been bought and paid in the name of growing the sport. Buying/selling podium places is normal for cycling.

I predicted a 2 minute cushion for Wiggo in the TdF. He had 2 on his teammate and another 7? on third place. I'll go conservative again and say Wiggo does the leadout for a Cav gold.

The advantages their doping program gave them are very likely still effective. Maybe we'll see a full Sky podium. This is Pro cycling after all...

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Nope.

Like I said originally - photos of throws are no good in this discussion. You throw the bike forward and Mr Newton dictates that your body subsequently goes backwards. Your *** ends up off the back of the seat, and the only way for that to happen is for your head to be low.

The guys on the left would have thrown just before the line, and now as they cross the line, they are moving forward to sit down on the saddle again.

Sorry if this sounds like a Cav defence, but it's purely his sprinting style. It's way different, and I deliberately made the alien reference as it is that stark of a contrast, not coz doping allows him to get that low

Look at the video Darryl posted and compare the height of his head to his leadout when he launches - he'd fit it under the lead out's chin.

I don't know why you're bothering - you're post of the Champs Elysees pic was absolutely conclusive. Cav's frontal area must be 30% less than the other top guys.

It's not just technical, of course. If it was, the other guys would have fixed it. The ability to generate that downward force with the angle of his body at the hips takes tremendous strength and flexibility. As you said, he's so much better at it than the rest, it's almost alien. The guy is a freak.

 

[D-Queued]

Nope.

...

Look at the video Darryl posted and compare the height of his head to his leadout when he launches - he'd fit it under the lead out's chin.

Giant Cav sitting up, Freire still pedalling with his head under everyone's chin, Zabel lunging...

Edit to add:

Just before the line, Freire below Cav:

Dave.

 

[BYOP88]

Unless Sky absolutely ruins their own chances at the road race, this sounds like it's been bought and paid in the name of growing the sport. Buying/selling podium places is normal for cycling.

I predicted a 2 minute cushion for Wiggo in the TdF. He had 2 on his teammate and another 7? on third place. I'll go conservative again and say Wiggo does the leadout for a Cav gold.

The advantages their doping program gave them are very likely still effective. Maybe we'll see a full Sky podium. This is Pro cycling after all...

Germany almost did that in 2000, but T-Mobile did get a 1-2-3 and we know what happened there.

 

[Maxiton]

I don't know why you're bothering - you're post of the Champs Elysees pic was absolutely conclusive. Cav's frontal area must be 30% less than the other top guys.

It's not just technical, of course. If it was, the other guys would have fixed it. The ability to generate that downward force with the angle of his body at the hips takes tremendous strength and flexibility. As you said, he's so much better at it than the rest, it's almost alien. The guy is a freak.

Giant Cav sitting up, Freire still pedalling with his head under everyone's chin, Zabel lunging...

Edit to add:

Just before the line, Freire below Cav:

Dave.

Cav gets lower than most, and, most important, generates more power while low and aero.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Lets hope we don,t see this type of farce on Sunday!

 

[D-Queued]

Cav gets lower than most, and, most important, generates more power while low and aero.

All the top guys can get low (Zabel, Freire, Boonen, Cipo) It is the generating more power in that position that gets my attention.

BTW... maybe Cav is learning from Boonen how to 'powder' the handlebars.

Here 6'4" (192 cm) Tom 'Mr. Snow' Boonen is demonstrating proper snorting technique to 5'7" (171 cm) Freire and 6' (183 cm) Eisel

Almost a foot taller, and nostrils below their chins.

Dave.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Giant Cav sitting up, Freire still pedalling with his head under everyone's chin, Zabel lunging...

Edit to add:

Just before the line, Freire below Cav:

Dave.

Well the 2nd foto is of Cav relaxing before the line - here is the same stage from a little further out:

He does get very very low.

 

[D-Queued]

Well the 2nd foto is of Cav relaxing before the line - here is the same stage from a little further out:
...
He does get very very low.

... and Freire is behind him, still below him...

Dave.

 

[Darryl Webster]

... and Freire is behind him, still below him...

Dave.

Well Freire aint no slouch is he but he,s getting a bit old in the tooth. I don't think its that Cav is absolutely unique ever but he,s certainly unusual and still has many years ahead of him.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

... and Freire is behind him, still below him...

Dave.

So?
The point is Cav gets low, real low - are you arguing this point?
If so, lets take it to another thread.

 

[D-Queued]

So?
The point is Cav gets low, real low - are you arguing this point?
If so, lets take it to another thread.

Agreed... but not unique (fact)... and certainly not enough to explain his performance (opinion, that can be substantiated by wind tunnel data).

Dave.