Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[BullsFan22]

The alarm bells started ringing at the 2009 TDF when Wiggins somehow finished 4th after being mostly a track rider in the past. Now he is dropping supposed favorites, past dopers, mountain goats, like they were Mark Cavendish or Andre Greipel. I thought there was some hope after last years tour. That was probably a false hope. I don't care what Wiggins says or has said in his anti doping rants. The Sky train is reminding me of days gone by with Mapei destroying everyone in the spring classics, Telekom and US Postal essentially sprinting up the mountain passes in 200km stages and Ullrich and Armstrong taking turns barely breathing with the next guy 5 minutes behind them. I honestly hope the tour is more clean than it ever has before, but with the Sky team, I am definitely not holding my breath. The Sky riders are making a mockery out of the competition. Very impressive, but highly suspicious.

 

[Fergoose]

On Froome I see Brailsford says this:

"His rise to notoriety was hampered by bilharzia, a water-borne disease he caught in 2010.

The thing is they aren’t on top of it. He got it again in February/March 2012 and by his own admission it took them some time to identify from his symptoms that he’d got it again. Unless they are stating he rode his entire career up to early 2011 with bilharzias without knowing about it then this argument doesn’t wash one little bit. Symptoms reportedly include blood in your urine so it seems extremely unlikely to me that he’d spend years cycling without identifying the disease.

In the extremely unlikely event that he had unknowingly been harbouring a blood related parasitic disease for his early career then I’d concede there is a chance his performance in the past 9 months could be his genuine level. That he really has been a superstar in the making hobbled by an energy sapping, hard to trace disease. Consider that gauntlet thrown down.

Actually, wait a minute, stop being so lazy Fergoose… *stoops down and picks up the gauntlet and googles*

It appears Froome may have first contracted bilharzias in November 2010 when he visited Kenya. It appears this was his first time getting the disease, so bang goes that theory.

http://www.realpeloton.com/

Oh jings. He was bedridden for two weeks with a chest infection caught during the Algarve race (15th to 19th of February), and then spent two more weeks trying to get over it (taking us to mid-March). Following that he had blood tests identifying a recurrence of bilharzias and received treatment. So even being conservative in suggesting diagnosis and treatment took a fortnight, he was most likely totally off the radar for six weeks since mid-February. He indicates he resumed full training, fittingly enough, on about April the 1st. He’s even posting this information up there himself!

http://www.chris-froome.com/diary

He is the best rider in the world but has only been training since April! If someone thinks I’m being unfair or that being 100% at this stage after starting training in April is possible, please speak up. I’m no expert on how long it takes to get into racing trim.

 

[SaxonUK]

considering he had undiagnosed bilharzia for years it is hardly surprising

oh wait...that is a conspiracy as well

Now you're making up arguments to oppose.

He was diagnosed in 2010, it was treated, he did 'spectacular' in the Vuelta, and was then diagnosed with bilharzia again at the start of this season. I'm not saying the illness is suspicious, I'm saying that there is nothing within his race results that you can point to and say that these results prove that he should be up here, or that he indeed has the ability to.

 

[Bonkstrong]

http://www.sportsscientists.com/201...gn=Feed:+blogspot/cJKs+(The+Science+of+Sport)

Sky aren't doing anything extraterrestrial. The doping talk here has gone out of control! The power numbers are believable, Wiggins has always been a talent. Froome kind of came from no where, but if Wiggins is clean I highly doubt Sky would be letting Froome go 'rogue' on his own doping program.

Seriously what is Sky's competition in this Tour. Schleck, please. Evans, on good form again but he's lost his edge compared to last year that is clear. Is it because he has a baby now, or because he's already won the Tour and some of the hunger has gone. The rest are either past there prime (Menchov), crashed out or are second rate GC men (Monfort). There is only one benchmark in this era to compare Sky to and that is Alberto Contador. Next year will be something special if all turn up on top form.

Everyone mocked Sky's marginal gains theories at the start, and the first year they were over confident, arrogant and didnt put the work in. Now they're still arrogant but can at least back it up with results. Everyone in contention for the Tour team has had to dedicate their entire lives to this. Spending all winter in Mallorca and the rest of the year in Tenerife or away racing together. Everything is closely controlled. Every last detail taken care of. Every training ride carefully planned. All these guys have done is eat, sleep, train and race together. This really is a professionalism that no other team has. How many people mocked Wiggins for warming down on the turbo after a road stage? Now everyone does it! I think we will see more teams copying Sky's methods next year.

Wow, it took 144 pages before someone posted anything sensible!

Excellent post sir!

/end thread

 

[Fergoose]

Of course, nationality SHOULD be irrelevant, but there are an awful lot of people who will happily throw the Iberian peninsula on the fire.

Strange then that the above average performance by confirmed cheat Rui Costa doesn’t so much as make a ripple in the clinic today as he climbs into GC contention. Or that the Froome slaying King of Espana, Juan Jose Cobo being in a staggeringly inconsistent 148th place, @11’43” despite suffering no injury, goes uncommented. Maybe people think it is normal for the Vuelta champion to be behind Mark Renshaw at this stage. I shouldn’t have pointed that out, someone will create a thread suggesting that the Anglophone Renshaw is doping in order to be the mighty talent of Cobo.

At the time of typing the front page of Clinic threads includes 11 threads on Anglophone riders, 1 on a German, 1 on an Italian and a grand total of, wait for it, zero threads on Spanish & Portuguese riders. I would suggest that those who let matters of race cloud their judgement on this forum are not necessarily Anglophones.

EDIT: Due to my complete and consistent inability to navigate the ruddy official TdF website classifications this year the overall results posted above are after Stage 4! Cobo has currently actually risen to 60th @ 29.15 and is now winning the battle between him and Mark Renshaw.

 

[Parrot23]

and wiggins beat him in the world champs last year

I forgot that. Thanks.

I see that Martin put more than a minute into Bradley and Cancellara there.

 

[D Avoid]

Just watched the recording of today. I knew the results and comments before watching but I was still amazed at how EurosportUK insulted the intelligence of the viewers. That is Harmon and Kelly commentationg and the British muppets in the studio.

It was all how amazing Sky were, no questioning of the results. To add insult to injury, they then said that while all the British papers will be praising Wiggins and Froome (how do they know as Murdoch only owns 75% of newspapers) and that the French will be unhappy. Why only the French? They were so patronising and smug it was untrue. I am embarrassed to be British.

There was no mention of the doping allegations against Sky, no reasoned argument, no discussion, they blanked everything out.

First of all only one of the studio cast is a muppet. Isn't that right Toe Knee.

Secondly, if they were to in any way interfere by being the first to say anything that might cause trouble for our hero they would be ostrich eyes'd by all decent every day fantasists. The pro British scene is not so big and you meet each other every week, life would be unlivable!! Also as studio guest they get £450 an hour, possibly more now as it was 2 or 3 years back when the muppet told me how much he was on, same night he told me how fond he was of Stefan Roche and his son Saiont Nicolas, referring to both of them as being nuts!!

Rob Hayles knows Brailsford just as well as sWiggins does , so he should have a fair idea what goes on, having been rested a few years back with a very high hemerrhoid reading!!

 

[taiwan]

considering he had undiagnosed bilharzia for years it is hardly surprising

That he's top 3 in the Tour is surprising anyway in the respect that it's the absolute elite of the sport. Different if he was top 100 sick and top 20 healthy. How many anonymous riders are there in the peloton right now that would be threatening to win the Tour if they could only get their undiagnosed disease treated?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Strange then that the above average performance by confirmed cheat Rui Costa doesn’t so much as make a ripple in the clinic today as he climbs into GC contention. Or that the Froome slaying King of Espana, Juan Jose Cobo being in a staggeringly inconsistent 148th place, @11’43” despite suffering no injury, goes uncommented. Maybe people think it is normal for the Vuelta champion to be behind Mark Renshaw at this stage. I shouldn’t have pointed that out, someone will create a thread suggesting that the Anglophone Renshaw is doping in order to be the mighty talent of Cobo.

At the time of typing the front page of Clinic threads includes 11 threads on Anglophone riders, 1 on a German, 1 on an Italian and a grand total of, wait for it, zero threads on Spanish & Portuguese riders. I would suggest that those who let matters of race cloud their judgement on this forum are not necessarily Anglophones.

Cobo is known to be shady, and so we don't really need to speculate on that front. You would be hard pushed to find anybody here who thinks he's clean. Even during the Vuelta, the counter to the "Cobo is dirty as hell screwing the Sky guys over" argument was not "no he isn't" but "what the hell makes you think they're clean?". He's also known to be very shaky and hard to motivate, and last time he was at Abarcá he was so poor he was below the standards we would expect of a minimally talented clean cyclist. Most records say he was suffering from depression, so he's hard to use as a reference point.

Costa's performance is not that worrying yet. If he holds on and loses less than a minute or two on La Toussuire we can talk again. Also this "confirmed cheat" is one of the only people whose suspension has been overturned because he proved contamination (!) and he was a member of BikePure prior to that. He's been good on medium mountains for a while and that's more or less all he's had to do thus far, but yes, if he shows this same kind of ability in the high mountains maybe we can be suspicious. Then again, guys like Luís León Sánchez have GT top 10s to their name, and Costa would seem more readily built for climbing than Luísle.

 

[Thee_chisa]

I forgot that. Thanks.

I see that Martin put more than a minute into Bradley and Cancellara there.

yep, when fit and not banged up tony m is an awesome TTer. also preparing for 1 day rather than a tour makes it easier

 

[mastersracer]

Tucker notes that riders of the 1990s would have beaten this year's group on Belles Filles by a minute:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012...ce+of+Sport)

 

[Parrot23]

Just for the record:

* oxygen is carried by red blood cells

* billharzia attacks the red blood cells.

 

[roundabout]

Tucker notes that riders of the 1990s would have beaten this year's group on Belles Filles by a minute:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012...ce+of+Sport)

Wow, no way. Who knew that riders are going slower now with stricter testing!!!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Just for the record:

* oxygen is carried by red blood cells

* billharzia attacks the red blood cells.

Also, Froome contracted bilharzia in November 2010. As far as I can tell, he didn't podium any GTs before that date. There was no real natural development from his 2008 performances (which really weren't that special when we compare to other people who've burst onto the scene and subsequently turned into GC contenders, whether known dopers or otherwise). 2009 and 2010 were quiet years. If anything 2011 pre-Vuelta had been a better year for him.

 

[Parrot23]

Wow, no way. Who knew that riders are going slower now with stricter testing!!!

Including Sky?

Or is the hypothesis that their program is much more sophisticated, that they are the only ones with the money to buy the science to mask the doping?

 

[Bala Verde]

+1 the post to end all posts.

Funny how you missed the disclaimer:

Now, an important disclaimer. None of this disproves doping, and none of this proves doping either. When a rider produces performances that have "alien" physiology implications, it's a strong flag for doping (I'm gratified to read that cycling's governing bodies are actually looking at this approach now). But when the physiology is "normal" or at least, not suspicious, then it doesn't necessarily vindicate the rider. Why? Because doping helps with far more than on-the-day performances - it also aids recovery and thus enables consistency.

^^

not true, froome has been around for a few years, but has had massive inconsistency.

Irony?

Also, that the numbers, on a whole, don't look suspicious [which the website basically defines as not being physiologically impossible] is quite possibly true. What people forget to mention is: "who is pumping those numbers on the tarmac."

If the current lantern rouge [haven't checked who it is] starts cranking out those numbers in the next giro, Tdf and vuelta, while he has never in his career done anything similar, we can safely assume that, since his numbers are not physiologically impossible, he surely isn't doping?

 

[Epicycle]

Strange then that the above average performance by confirmed cheat Rui Costa doesn’t so much as make a ripple in the clinic today as he climbs into GC contention. Or that the Froome slaying King of Espana, Juan Jose Cobo being in a staggeringly inconsistent 148th place, @11’43” despite suffering no injury, goes uncommented. Maybe people think it is normal for the Vuelta champion to be behind Mark Renshaw at this stage. I shouldn’t have pointed that out, someone will create a thread suggesting that the Anglophone Renshaw is doping in order to be the mighty talent of Cobo.

At the time of typing the front page of Clinic threads includes 11 threads on Anglophone riders, 1 on a German, 1 on an Italian and a grand total of, wait for it, zero threads on Spanish & Portuguese riders. I would suggest that those who let matters of race cloud their judgement on this forum are not necessarily Anglophones.

Cancellara got the same questions when he motored away from the field at Flanders and Roubaix two years ago, as did Gilbert with the triple and Boonen with his eye-popping solo at Roubaix this spring. Sky looks like they are on that level so far, we'll see what happens the rest of the Tour.

 

[Parrot23]

Also, Froome contracted bilharzia in November 2010. As far as I can tell, he didn't podium any GTs before that date. There was no real natural development from his 2008 performances (which really weren't that special when we compare to other people who've burst onto the scene and subsequently turned into GC contenders, whether known dopers or otherwise). 2009 and 2010 were quiet years. If anything 2011 pre-Vuelta had been a better year for him.

Looks like he turned pro in '07 with a South African team of all things. He's really from the hicks, as it were. He's not been in a proper top tier team until Sky. Two years with Barloworld is hardly great for his development.

 

[roundabout]

Including Sky?

Or is the hypothesis that their program is much more sophisticated, that they are the only ones with the money to buy the science to mask the doping?

No, the point is that there is no point in comparing performances when there wasn't even a test for EPO back then.

But I see that you like to project...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Tucker notes that riders of the 1990s would have beaten this year's group on Belles Filles by a minute:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012...ce+of+Sport)

page does not exist

 

[mastersracer]

page does not exist

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/tour-in-mountains-analysis-discussion.html

 

[greatking88]

I am in no means a Wiggins fanboy, if anything I want Nibali to win, but the fact that everyone jumps to "he's cheating" right away disgusts me. Wiggins can TT. We already KNEW that. Froome can also apparently, which we had a good glimpse of in the Vuelta. Yes their team time trial on the first mountain stage was a little ridiculous, but its not that surprising. Evans hasn't been on the same form he was last year, Froome is great at short steep climbs, and Rodgers and Porte are crazy good domestiques. RSNT also had a ton of guys up there (admittedly not as high) but no one is looking at Zubledia and shouting cheater.

Sky can pull of the kind of domination they have because they simply have that good of a team. Thats what happens when you are rich.

Porte, Rodgers, Froome, Wiggins & even Siutsou are all capable of getting top 10 in a GT. They just have a crazy good team.

Contador isn't racing, J-Rod is not, Schleck is not, Sanchez was injured right beforehand, etc...

Yeah Froome looks great at the short steep climbs here, from 7.20 on..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGpv0xn0E8

Somebody posted it earlier, Froome looks like a proper climber.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Also, why the hell is Rui Costa coming in for questioning? He's about 15th and has been picked up by the cameras roughly never. Why WOULD we be questioning him the same way as we're questioning a guy who is a 30+ year old trackie who has turned himself into an unstoppable machine besting the climbers on the climbs and losing 10kg yet improving his TT power too, and a guy who was on the verge of losing his pro contract when he suddenly got over an illness to become one of the best climbers and TTers in the world for three weeks... only to then contract that same illness again for another 6 months only to suddenly get over it in time to become one of the best climbers and TTers in the world for another three weeks?

 

[Parrot23]

No, the point is that there is no point in comparing performances when there wasn't even a test for EPO back then.

But I see that you like to project...

I just don't buy the implicit hypothesis that Sky is the only Team that has figured out how to game the biopassport. It's conceivable, but unlikely. There are a lot of smart docs. out there.

 

[mastersracer]

No, the point is that there is no point in comparing performances when there wasn't even a test for EPO back then.

But I see that you like to project...

Riders may be doping. But, their performance is no better than what a non-doped rider could achieve. Sorry I didn't include the obvious inference...