Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[roundabout]

I just don't buy the implicit hypothesis that Sky is the only Team that has figured out how to game the biopassport. It's conceivable, but unlikely. There are a lot of smart docs. out there.

And how about the hypothesis that Sky is the only team with smart coaches?

Smart in the sense that they are better than what others have. How likely is that?

 

[Parrot23]

Have we seen that before?

Yes, we have, unfortunately.

One thing, though, that Kerrison has brought an end to is this antiquarian pro cycling practice of people at the end the season laying off their bike for a month or barely riding for weeks. Bertie seems to do that, but he is immensely genetically gifted (VO2max etc.) in addition to his dodgy record, and can get his form back. Freire, etc., would do that, but he's immensely gifted too.

It is absolutely weird that pro cyclists lay off for weeks at the end of the season, then start building again. Sky, it seems, has kept the higher intensity in the off-season, just at lower volumes so there is recovery without their losing the top end seasonally every year.

They have done some things differently; that's clear.

 

[usedtobefast]

Also, why the hell is Rui Costa coming in for questioning? He's about 15th and has been picked up by the cameras roughly never. Why WOULD we be questioning him the same way as we're questioning a guy who is a 30+ year old trackie who has turned himself into an unstoppable machine besting the climbers on the climbs and losing 10kg yet improving his TT power too, and a guy who was on the verge of losing his pro contract when he suddenly got over an illness to become one of the best climbers and TTers in the world for three weeks... only to then contract that same illness again for another 6 months only to suddenly get over it in time to become one of the best climbers and TTers in the world for another three weeks?

it is just a "coincidence"...hahahahaa1

 

[roundabout]

Riders may be doping. But, their performance is no better than what a non-doped rider could achieve. Sorry I didn't include the obvious inference...

What inference? That as long as you pass the tests and not go over some limit that denotes clean performance you are plausibly clean?

How do you know that they can do what they did clean? Why won't they tell people in more detail (instead of ****ting on everybody with their dedication claptrap) why they can do what they did clean, or at least state why they can't answer that question to the public without name calling.

 

[cineteq]

Also, why the hell is Rui Costa coming in for questioning? He's about 15th and has been picked up by the cameras roughly never. Why WOULD we be questioning him the same way as we're questioning a guy who is a 30+ year old trackie who has turned himself into an unstoppable machine besting the climbers on the climbs and losing 10kg yet improving his TT power too, and a guy who was on the verge of losing his pro contract when he suddenly got over an illness to become one of the best climbers and TTers in the world for three weeks... only to then contract that same illness again for another 6 months only to suddenly get over it in time to become one of the best climbers and TTers in the world for another three weeks?

ˆˆˆThis
Let the little guy alone.

 

[taiwan]

Only they know. I don't, you don't, and nor does anybody else on this forum, and unlike Postal there is not even the slightest thread of evidence that they are, and so people should stop speculating as if it is already known.

If you just don't know if they are or if anyone else is, you can't make the condition that " if they are then everyone else is", although it's a convenient justification. You need to wait and play that card if/when they get busted.

 

[Parrot23]

And how about the hypothesis that Sky is the only team with smart coaches?

Smart in the sense that they are better than what others have. How likely is that?

Well, people are really offended by the exercise physiology experience taken from swim training, which is better than pro cycling. Cuts both ways. You can see my point above about Kerrison. And that's just one point: they're not going to reveal what they do, training or doping wise. If pushed to shove, I think it's a combo, just as on other teams, just better. The anglophone thing also seems to really stick in continentals' craw, for some reason.

I'm not surprised by anything in pro cycling; neither should you. Everyone should just take a chill pill, if you'd ask me. It's a bike race and money and prestige are involved. Big whoopie do.

 

[taiwan]

Also, why the hell is Rui Costa coming in for questioning? He's about 15th and has been picked up by the cameras roughly never. Why WOULD we be questioning him the same way as we're questioning a guy who is a 30+ year old trackie who has turned himself into an unstoppable machine besting the climbers on the climbs and losing 10kg yet improving his TT power too, and a guy who was on the verge of losing his pro contract when he suddenly got over an illness to become one of the best climbers and TTers in the world for three weeks... only to then contract that same illness again for another 6 months only to suddenly get over it in time to become one of the best climbers and TTers in the world for another three weeks?

This part is worth remembering.

 

[abbaskip]

Not sure what the fuss is about. Apparently Froome and Wiggo just went home and had a nice juicy Spanish steak after stage 8, and then had a good nights sleep ready for the ITT.

 

[oldcrank]

So did Sky perfect all their doping techniques as Team GB
on the track in 2008 and prior? Because a 3.53 team pursuit
is much more amazing than anything I've seen in this years
Tour de France. Very, very much more amazing.

 

[Bala Verde]

Yeah Froome looks great at the short steep climbs here, from 7.20 on..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGpv0xn0E8

Somebody posted it earlier, Froome looks like a proper climber.

At 8:15 he blew up.

CN report - Campi Bisenzio → San Luca (Bologna) 175Km

Twelve kilometers into proceedings, a 13-strong group got away, and like the stage that preceded it, the break established a medium-sized lead around the four and a half minute mark after 70km - perhaps considered to be a controllable advantage by the Rabobank-led peloton. In the move were: Guillame Bonnafond (AG2r), Giampaolo Cheula and Christopher Froome (Barloworld), Vasili Kiryienka (Caisse d'Epargne), Philip Deignan and Simon Gerrans (Cervelo), Giovanni Visconti and Andriy Grivko (ISD), Francesco Gavazzi (Lampre), Francesco Reda (Quick Step), Rubens Bertaglioti (Diquigiovanni), Evgeny Petrov (Katusha), Martin Müller (Milram) and Eduard Vorganov (Xacobeo).

As the riders passed under the sandstone arch of Pontecchio Marconi with 2.7km left to race, ISD's Andriy Grivko took flight just before the start of the climb to San Luca, a further 600 metres ahead.

The Ukrainian got the head start he wanted, but with the first 500 metres averaging a lung-busting 13.6%, Barloworld's Christopher Froome took over, setting an even faster tempo as the road became less steep.

But in the next half-kilometre, beginning with a short 16% pitch, the road kicked up again to average 12.2%. It must've hurt like hell.

As the final 600 metres began to level out (unbeknown to him, Froome and Grivko had effectively blown), Gerrans pushed home his advantage, now a certain winner.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2009/giro09/?id=results/giro0914

http://www.steephill.tv/2009/giro-d-italia/

The commentators say something like: "Froome zigzags from left to right. Just to make that gradient less steep. He is parked; totally blown"

He finished a respectable 6, but at 1K he was with the winner Gerrans:

Stage 14 results
1 Simon Gerrans (Aus) Cervelo Test Team 4.16.48
2 Rubens Bertaglioti (Ita) Diquigiovanni 0.12
3 Francesco Gavazzi (Ita) Lampre - N.G.C. 0.18
4 Evgeny Petrov (Rus) Team Katusha 0.24
5 Philip Deignan (Irl) Cervelo Test Team 0.27
6 Christopher Froome (GBr) Barloworld 0.36
7 Vasili Kiryienka (Blr) Caisse d'Epargne 0.41
8 Francesco Reda (Ita) Quick Step 1.01
9 Andriy Grivko (Ukr) ISD 1.04
10 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas

J/K Anyone can have a bad day though, wrong gearing etc

(As per Froome's words: I needed a extra gear, maybe a 27 cog, to spin more. It felt like my legs just seized up.")
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...onisingly-close-to-stage-victory-in-giro.html

Just trying to poke some fun

 

[Parrot23]

So did Sky perfect all their doping techniques as Team GB
on the track in 2008 and prior? Because a 3.53 team pursuit
is much more amazing than anything I've seen in this years
Tour de France. Very, very much more amazing.

Maybe. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it or descend into hysteria. You don't seem either, so good on you.

(I think we need to bring back public hanging to salve the vicarious need for community justice and purity in the clinic. It's really, really urgent, it would seem, here. Bit like a Shiite religious festival, stonings, etc., I would say.)

 

[Dr.Sahl]

How would you guys feel about drafting a letter to ASO, signing it jointly, and sending it to them?

I don't think they care.. ASO lets people pass unless they **** them off.

 

[taiwan]

So did Sky perfect all their doping techniques as Team GB
on the track in 2008 and prior? Because a 3.53 team pursuit
is much more amazing than anything I've seen in this years
Tour de France. Very, very much more amazing.

You reckon so?

 

[Parrot23]

At 8:15 he blew up.

CN report - Campi Bisenzio → San Luca (Bologna) 175Km

The commentators say something like: "Froome zigzags from left to right. Just to make that gradient less steep. He is parked; totally blown"

He finished a respectable 6, but at 1K he was with the winner Gerrans:



J/K Anyone can have a bad day though, wrong gearing etc

(As per Froome's words: I needed a extra gear, maybe a 27 cog, to spin more. It felt like my legs just seized up.")
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...onisingly-close-to-stage-victory-in-giro.html

Just trying to poke some fun

That was great! Thanks, Bala.

Prima facie evidence of non-doping--at least on that day. Lots of folks are going to be terribly disappointed and conflicted to see that.

I know you don't believe that, but good to poke some fun at this whole thing.

 

[roundabout]

Well, people are really offended by the exercise physiology experience taken from swim training, which is better than pro cycling. Cuts both ways. You can see my point above about Kerrison. And that's just one point: they're not going to reveal what they do, training or doping wise. If pushed to shove, I think it's a combo, just as on other teams, just better. The anglophone thing also seems to really stick in continentals' craw, for some reason.

I'm not surprised by anything in procycling; neither should you. Everyone should just take a chill pill, if you'd ask me.

There are smart people in cycling. You can read what Pozzato says about Ferrari. And does keeping the form up all year mean that Rogers isn't trolling people when he is saying that he is better now than in his doping days? Seems like a big breakthrough. Right?

Also, I don't really care about the anglophone/continental thing. That seems pretty irrelevant to the argument. Nor am I really surprised about anything in cycling. However certain things posted in defense of Sky border on irksome.

 

[lemoogle]

So let me get this right....
Consensus of all the yapping little poodles on this forum is that the Sky team are doping, and this is obvious because Wiggins is in yellow. It must be doping because the eight time Olympic and Worlds Gold medallist, Wiggins, has 'come from nowhere'

So when Usain Bolt wins the marathon at the olympics we should just all just accept it ? because he won olympic and world medals?.... The tour and Wiggin's medals are two VERY different things.

 

[Bala Verde]

Yes, we have, unfortunately.

One thing, though, that Kerrison has brought an end to is this antiquarian pro cycling practice of people at the end the season laying off their bike for a month or barely riding for weeks. Bertie seems to do that, but he is immensely genetically gifted (VO2max etc.) in addition to his dodgy record, and can get his form back. Freire, etc., would do that, but he's immensely gifted too.

It is absolutely weird that pro cyclists lay off for weeks at the end of the season, then start building again. Sky, it seems, has kept the higher intensity in the off-season, just at lower volumes so there is recovery without their losing the top end seasonally every year.

They have done some things differently; that's clear.

I think part of the reason cyclists do it is for mental sanity? I'd guess they would get sick of riding a bike every single day, and they therefore lay off the bike almost entirely for a couple of weeks.

 

[Dr.Sahl]

Finally, I really don't understand why Sky are being singled before they've enjoyed any concrete success, usually it takes at least one G.T win before so many people go mad on the forums

I would call it a succes, if you groom a guy like Froome to suddenly become not only the worlds best MT helper, but also a GC contender and stage winner.. Aswell as transforming Wiggins into a monster that can do all disiplines at best almost...

But the very worst of it all, when you see 1 team with old mediocre riders along with 2 new hopes, just smash all the specialist in any discipline and then say cocky stuff like (ohh we only did slow pace when we did 500+ watt up the MT, we could be doing alot better) then to me its just ****ed...

Look at the LA thread, the vast majority now, don't defend and actually know it was ****ed... now we see something similar and I for one, don't want to see 7 years with UK Postal, then I rather find another sport.

But as I said ealier, I will wait with my full judgement, untill after the next two stages.

 

[lemoogle]

So did Sky perfect all their doping techniques as Team GB
on the track in 2008 and prior? Because a 3.53 team pursuit
is much more amazing than anything I've seen in this years
Tour de France. Very, very much more amazing.

I remember watching the olympics that year and being WOW, never really understood how it was possible, but I wanted to believe so much that I somehow believed a reason they gave about some new high tech suits that they burned after the olympics so noone could steal them.

After that, every year I could never understand why they could never reproduce at the world championships. Very suspicious in my eyes...

 

[Bala Verde]

That was great! Thanks, Bala.

Prima facie evidence of non-doping--at least on that day. Lots of folks are going to be terribly disappointed and conflicted to see that.

I know you don't believe that, but good to poke some fun at this whole thing.

There is little serious enough not to be made fun of.

I thought this would lighten up the atmosphere

 

[Parrot23]

I think part of the reason cyclists do it is for mental sanity? I'd guess they would get sick of riding a bike every single day, and they therefore lay off the bike almost entirely for a couple of weeks.

Makes sense, given the hours in season.

 

[thehog]

Funniest thing ive read in a long time. Must remember Gerrans is an ace climber!

I've actually done this climb. It's steep and short but I have to say got up it twice in one day in a 27 then rode another 100km on.

I can't actually remember zig zagging like Fromme did and I'm indeed an amateur climber!

At 8:15 he blew up.

CN report - Campi Bisenzio → San Luca (Bologna) 175Km

The commentators say something like: "Froome zigzags from left to right. Just to make that gradient less steep. He is parked; totally blown"

He finished a respectable 6, but at 1K he was with the winner Gerrans:



J/K Anyone can have a bad day though, wrong gearing etc

(As per Froome's words: I needed a extra gear, maybe a 27 cog, to spin more. It felt like my legs just seized up.")
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...onisingly-close-to-stage-victory-in-giro.html

Just trying to poke some fun

 

[lemoogle]

One terrible issue with the British Media is that they've had nothing good to talk about cycling wise ever, so they're definitely not going to start being skeptical about Sky's performance, they're trying to create a market there.

I'm French, and there's one thing we do, and that's to crucify our athletes when they do something wrong. Virenque was loved by everyone and he did not get away with it. Heck I don't even understand how the british media can praise or even tolerate wiggins' language or attitude throughout this tour. But when they take it to the point where they claim this is the first clean team/win in the history of the sport.... Then that's just lying to our faces.

 

[ellenbrook2001]

sky

well in PARIS WIGGINGS then hes domestic then maybe cadel anywhere the 3 place will be about 5 minutes from the winner the SKY team hes in another planet no way they are clean i could beat a million dollar on it ,common beat CANCELLARA hmmm very fishy .