Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Catwhoorg]

peer review is based on semi-transparency, you can ask the author to provide more data figure to support his conclusion in the paper. Can SKY provide his superhuman real blood data to the panel of experts?

Isn't that the essencee of the biopassport ?

Everyone's bloodwork gets looked at first by a single expert, then if flagged by that single person, a few more all of whom have to agree that there is a case to answer.

No single scientist/blood expert can raise a case simply because most of us realise that an individual scientist can be wrong, and it is important to verify and cross check conclusions.


Going back to the expert commentary on Brads 2009 data. That more than anything is why I thing a single expert publishing a fairly scathing analysis on a fairly limited blood profile data set is just someone looking to make a name for themselves or a quick buck.

Note how Ashenden when he speaks to journalists phrases things very differently.

(As an aside I'm certainly exploring the idea of a trip to Manchester, there is a nice direct flight from Atlanta, have got family there to stay with and attending a presentation by Sky of training data etc would be very interesting to me professionally as well as with my cycling fan hat on.)

 

[Zam_Olyas]

one lie after another lie, typical doper behavior

Are you saying Sir David B likes crack?


This is a joke.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

If was his first GT, he was +7.22 back on GC, 4 minutes behind Evans, 16 seconds behind Vino, and ahead of riders like Sastre, Kiserlovski, Pinotti, Cungeo, Mollema, Gadret. Sure he gained time in a break, but still. It does show that he is a rider with some great potential. You guys just can't take in the he had a really good result before he came to Sky.

Obviously you never watched that race or know anything about cycling, given your stubborn refusal to read what has already been explained to you.

"Sure he gained time on a break, but still..." Still what? The guy got shelled in the other stages. At the end of Stage 11, he had almost 12 minutes on Basso because of that break.

From that point on, he lost almost 20 minutes to Basso.

 

[maxmartin]

The same year where he was 4th in the worlds ITT? he wouldnt come top 20 now.
Dont get me wrong sky are probably as dirty as the next team, but the reality is the challenge from other teams/contenders has been **** poor this year.

how can you challenge a fully doped team?

 

[thehog]

If was his first GT, he was +7.22 back on GC, 4 minutes behind Evans, 16 seconds behind Vino, and ahead of riders like Sastre, Kiserlovski, Pinotti, Cungeo, Mollema, Gadret. Sure he gained time in a break, but still. It does show that he is a rider with some great potential. You guys just can't take in the he had a really good result before he came to Sky.

He was 16 seconds behind Vino but at one point he was 12 minutes ahead of him on GC due to the break! Don’t be ridiculous.

Vino pulled back 12 minutes on him in 8 stages.

Evans fell to the same fate.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...s-big-break-overturns-the-gc-standings_114802

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

Really good to see good old Ritchie Porte close a minute on Vicenzo I must say. Seemed effortless. Or am I just a cynic?

Porte vs Nibali?
Come on. That's just insane.

The beauty of it they also had upper dopey Chris left, even AFTER the new discovered talent from Australia had a flat.

When you love cycling this must make a man sick.

Watch the replay when Nibali is overtaken by the peloton, he just watches in disbelief. Must be those other guys having more commitment of course.

Cycling anno 2012, sickening.

There's some seriously overrating of Nibali going on here.. He ain't bad going downhill.

Porte put in a good shift, no where near as good a shift as Voeckler or Voigt though but no suspicions there? You'd probably switched it off by then though.. Perhaps writing a pleading open letter or lighting some candles or something

 

[maxmartin]

Isn't that the essencee of the biopassport ?

Everyone's bloodwork gets looked at first by a single expert, then if flagged by that single person, a few more all of whom have to agree that there is a case to answer.

No single scientist/blood expert can raise a case simply because most of us realise that an individual scientist can be wrong, and it is important to verify and cross check conclusions.


Going back to the expert commentary on Brads 2009 data. That more than anything is why I thing a single expert publishing a fairly scathing analysis on a fairly limited blood profile data set is just someone looking to make a name for themselves or a quick buck.

Note how Ashenden when he speaks to journalists phrases things very differently.

(As an aside I'm certainly exploring the idea of a trip to Manchester, there is a nice direct flight from Atlanta, have got family there to stay with and attending a presentation by Sky of training data etc would be very interesting to me professionally as well as with my cycling fan hat on.)

I doubt SKY would share any data with you(assuming you have no coonections to SKY0. As to biopassport I don't know its detail. How is data collected? How frequently it is collected? What blood panel are they looking at? And who are looking into data? Biopaasport always seem a blackbox to me, maybe I am just an outsider. More importantly, how they establish the baseline? And when baseline changes how can you establish it is the effects of training or some PED effects.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

There's some seriously overrating of Nibali going on here.. He ain't bad going downhill.

Porte put in a good shift, no where near as good a shift as Voeckler or Voigt though but no suspicions there? You'd probably switched it off by then though.. Perhaps writing a pleading open letter or lighting some candles or something

Oh jeeezz.... open a thread on others...first cobo, rui costa (how did he do today) yea they are all suspicious...esp jens has been like wow. Or you should visit here more often to know the opinion on Voeckler.

 

[Montanus]

He was 16 seconds behind Vino but at one point he was 12 minutes ahead of him on GC due to the break! Don’t be ridiculous.

Vino pulled back 12 minutes on him in 8 stages.

Evans fell to the same fate.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...s-big-break-overturns-the-gc-standings_114802

Why can't you just try do put Porte's performance into context. It was his first GT, he wasn't even supposed to be Saxo Bank's GC rider in the race.
Even if you disregard the minutes he got thanks to the break (Sastre and Kiserlovski were also in the break and he beat them.), he would still have placed top 10, beating some solid GC riders. To me, that performance shows that Porte is a talented rider.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Speaking to the Times, Brailsford conceded that he may have been naïve in not looking deeper when signing Leinders in late 2010, but denied that Leinders has broken any anti-doping rules. “I categorically, 100 per cent say there is no risk of anything untoward since he’s been with us. But there is reputational risk,” he told the Times.

Is this guy for real?

He is trying to tell us now that he did'nt do enough research when recruiting Leinders when there was posters even on this forum who were on about this guy. Does he think we were born yesterday and all he is trying to do is pull the wool over our eyes with this nonsense. He knew all about his background, no doubts and he is only responding to all this now because he is backed into a corner and he is forced to do so. It's classic spin doctoring.

Note what Brailsford says there...

But there is reputational risk

Is this not a tacit admission that Bradley Wiggins is wrong to call us all a bunch of four letter words, because Brailsford, by acknowledging that there is reputational risk involved in hiring this particular doctor, accepts that there ARE dots that fans could join?

 

[User Guide]

how can you challenge a fully doped team?

Wheres the evidence they are fully charged,any dirtier than anyone else?
The numbers,the times up climbs dont support it.
Truth is many contenders either arent here have crashed or just had bad shape.
That and people are seeing what they want too see...take Nibali today, Porte didnt reel a minuite back on him with ease as people suggest,Nibali was isolated with plenty of KM to go and pretty much sat up when the gap started to come down.Whilst porte was on the front people joined that group, didnt get dropped but joined the group.
Also Nibali didnt look at sky as some extra terrestrials when he was taken back but rather at Evans who he had given 2 opportunities to join him on the descent of Colombier but Evans declined.
Are sky riders dirty? of course they are they are pro bike racers,but really it has gotten a bit out of hand.
I should also add that if it meant finally the peleton were much cleaner I wouldnt mind the whole of sky being busted frak the whole peleton and the thing too implode burn to the ground,so we could start again.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I doubt SKY would share any data with you(assuming you have no coonections to SKY0. As to biopassport I don't know its detail. How is data collected? How frequently it is collected? What blood panel are they looking at? And who are looking into data? Biopaasport always seem a blackbox to me, maybe I am just an outsider. More importantly, how they establish the baseline? And when baseline changes how can you establish it is the effects of training or some PED effects.

I have no connections perosnally or professionally with Sky.

Did you miss Dave B's open invitation later in the year to a presentation ?

Biopassport: Ross wrote a good primer a while back
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-legal-scientific.html

The answers to your questions specifically
How is data collected? - for cyclists, whenever a blood draw is taken. That is 2-3 days before every major race and targeted testing with the race. Froome specifically mentioned a blood draw this last weekend, for passport analysis, not sure who else on the team was also drawn

What blood panel are they looking at? - Hb , ret% and off score (derived from those two). Those are how much hemoglobin and the fraction of young red blood cells.

And who are looking into data? a panel of experts. For example, Ashenden used to be on the Laucern panel until earlier this year, now is only IIRC on the US one as he had a fundamental disagreement with a new NDA he was being requested to sign (and quite rightly so, it was a gag order in all but name). One expert looks at any flagged profile, then if he/she thinks there is something to it, it gets looked at by a broader pool.

how they establish the baseline? As Ross explains, each rider is their own baseline, and the more testing that occurs, the better the system becomes for each rider.

The system isn't perfect, and it can be gamed. You also have to have a very high degree of confidence before a case can be opened on biopassport alone, but most usefully it can be used to pick up on patterns of behaviour, and the relevant can then be targeted for say an EPO urine test, or a simple police raid on French soil.

 

[Ripper]

There's some seriously overrating of Wiggins ... Porte ... Rogers ... Froome ... going on here.

See ... that looks much more rational!

 

[SirLes]

The same year where he was 4th in the worlds ITT? he wouldnt come top 20 now.
Dont get me wrong sky are probably as dirty as the next team, but the reality is the challenge from other teams/contenders has been **** poor this year.

interesting at he came 95th in the ITT the other day, way behind many who were at the front today or in the break despite his ITT pedigree. May I suggest that he took it easy and has therefore just come off essentially 2 rest days. Looks like a good bit of pre planning

 

[maxmartin]

I have no connections perosnally or professionally with Sky.

Did you miss Dave B's open invitation later in the year to a presentation ?

Biopassport: Ross wrote a good primer a while back
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-legal-scientific.html

The answers to your questions specifically
How is data collected? - for cyclists, whenever a blood draw is taken. That is 2-3 days before every major race and targeted testing with the race. Froome specifically mentioned a blood draw this last weekend, for passport analysis, not sure who else on the team was also drawn

What blood panel are they looking at? - Hb , ret% and off score (derived from those two). Those are how much hemoglobin and the fraction of young red blood cells.

And who are looking into data? a panel of experts. For example, Ashenden used to be on the Laucern panel until earlier this year, now is only IIRC on the US one as he had a fundamental disagreement with a new NDA he was being requested to sign (and quite rightly so, it was a gag order in all but name). One expert looks at any flagged profile, then if he/she thinks there is something to it, it gets looked at by a broader pool.

how they establish the baseline? As Ross explains, each rider is their own baseline, and the more testing that occurs, the better the system becomes for each rider.

The system isn't perfect, and it can be gamed. You also have to have a very high degree of confidence before a case can be opened on biopassport alone, but most usefully it can be used to pick up on patterns of behaviour, and the relevant can then be targeted for say an EPO urine test, or a simple police raid on French soil.

Thanks for the info, I always have validity issue with biopassport programe from the scientific point of view. I just don't think it is robust enough and too much variations but I guess better than nothing. Since it is established in 2009, I am very interested to learn some more details of LA case, since it is mentioned that he kept using PED through 2010. If that was confirmed, i very much want to know the biopassport data of LA in 2009 and 2010. Hopefully that can shed some light on the whole validity issue.

 

[User Guide]

interesting at he came 95th in the ITT the other day, way behind many who were at the front today or in the break despite his ITT pedigree. May I suggest that he took it easy and has therefore just come off essentially 2 rest days. Looks like a good bit of pre planning

Of course he soft pedalled the other day, but his TT perfomances across the board where he was going full out have dipped significantly.

 

[Catwhoorg]

In 2011 FINA (swimming) adopted a biopassport, and the IAAF have also done so (not 100% sure of the date there).

The IAAF issued their first biopassport ban in May this year. Don't think any swimmers have been banned though. (interestingly for 2009-2010 data)

http://www.iaaf.org/antidoping/news/newsid=64772.html

The whole biopassport is a fascinating subject to me.

Now the relevant bodies need to conduct a whole lot more testing. Its my opinion that every single TDF rider should be tested at least one per week during the tour.

 

[User Guide]

In 2011 FINA (swimming) adopted a biopassport, and the IAAF have also done so (not 100% sure of the date there).

The IAAF issued their first biopassport ban in May this year. Don't think any swimmers have been banned though. (interestingly for 2009-2010 data)

http://www.iaaf.org/antidoping/news/newsid=64772.html

The whole biopassport is a fascinating subject to me.

Now the relevant bodies need to conduct a whole lot more testing. Its my opinion that every single TDF rider should be tested at least one per week during the tour.

Passport is a great idea for endurance sports,but it does seem to be a bit half **ssed was reading vroomens blog the other month UCI only doing 50%(offtop of my head) of the tests to make it viable and reliable.
As they are expanding it to conti teams without first sorting out at pro tour level as much to do with money and a hammer over upety teams(breakaway) than anti doping.
Also is it just down to the UCI to do passport tests or national bodies like in some other sports?

 

[maxmartin]

Wiggins' new rant, enjoy

Wiggins: I'm not some s--t rider who has come from nowhere

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-im-not-some-s-t-rider-who-has-come-from-nowhere

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I have no connections perosnally or professionally with Sky.

Did you miss Dave B's open invitation later in the year to a presentation ?

Biopassport: Ross wrote a good primer a while back
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-legal-scientific.html

The answers to your questions specifically
How is data collected? - for cyclists, whenever a blood draw is taken. That is 2-3 days before every major race and targeted testing with the race. Froome specifically mentioned a blood draw this last weekend, for passport analysis, not sure who else on the team was also drawn

What blood panel are they looking at? - Hb , ret% and off score (derived from those two). Those are how much hemoglobin and the fraction of young red blood cells.

And who are looking into data? a panel of experts. For example, Ashenden used to be on the Laucern panel until earlier this year, now is only IIRC on the US one as he had a fundamental disagreement with a new NDA he was being requested to sign (and quite rightly so, it was a gag order in all but name). One expert looks at any flagged profile, then if he/she thinks there is something to it, it gets looked at by a broader pool.

how they establish the baseline? As Ross explains, each rider is their own baseline, and the more testing that occurs, the better the system becomes for each rider.

The system isn't perfect, and it can be gamed. You also have to have a very high degree of confidence before a case can be opened on biopassport alone, but most usefully it can be used to pick up on patterns of behaviour, and the relevant can then be targeted for say an EPO urine test, or a simple police raid on French soil.

Good points on biopassport. Thanks.

 

[maxmartin]

In 2011 FINA (swimming) adopted a biopassport, and the IAAF have also done so (not 100% sure of the date there).

The IAAF issued their first biopassport ban in May this year. Don't think any swimmers have been banned though. (interestingly for 2009-2010 data)

http://www.iaaf.org/antidoping/news/newsid=64772.html

The whole biopassport is a fascinating subject to me.

Now the relevant bodies need to conduct a whole lot more testing. Its my opinion that every single TDF rider should be tested at least one per week during the tour.

it seems Wiggins is tested every day
"I’m tested by the UCI, god knows how many times a year, god knows how many times at the Dauphiné, blood tested every morning. What more can I do other than that? "

 

[Square-pedaller]

He doesn't get it does he?

Is the Fran Millar who does Sky's PR David Millar's sister who was involved in trying to keep the hounds off him?

 

[tsophoto]

On twitter just now @fmk_RoI "I'm not some **** rider who's just come from nowhere." 01 -DNS, 02 -DNS, 03- DNS, 04 - DNS, 05 -DNS, 06 -124, 07 -DNF, 08 - DNS, 09 -4, 10 -24, 11 -DNF

 

[Montanus]

Wiggins' new rant, enjoy

Wiggins: I'm not some s--t rider who has come from nowhere

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-im-not-some-s-t-rider-who-has-come-from-nowhere

By implication: you should suspect Froome.

 

[maxmartin]

On twitter just now @fmk_RoI "I'm not some **** rider who's just come from nowhere." 01 -DNS, 02 -DNS, 03- DNS, 04 - DNS, 05 -DNS, 06 -124, 07 -DNF, 08 - DNS, 09 -4, 10 -24, 11 -DNF

haha these are hard data