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Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Jul 29, 2009
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Of course one cannot verify the story but It is not an anti Wiggins piece in itself and the writer could not have foreseen Wiggins' current position. Also the idea that you could compete clean on the track but not on the road was a common thought at the time and given as a reason why British cyclists were successful on the track but not on the road.

There was no team Sky, Cavendish hadn't won a stage and the last Brit to win anything of note was the banned David miller.

The question is "what has changed?"

Either the sport must be cleaner or Wiggins must be dirtier.

There is no alternative
 
Apr 8, 2010
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maxmartin said:
i posted it out

# Michael Rinearon 16 Jul 2007 at 4:05 am
I met Wiggins at a rund raising event in London last year. He was a very nice individual. We talked for several minutes about the upcoming event and he was extremely annimated about his chances. I found his comments on drugs in the sport to be very enlightening. Basically it is required, not even an option anymore to stay ahead of the testing and use whatever you can barely get away with. Without them, you have no possible chance for competitive results. His comments basically put the whole issues of drugs into a very realistic and honest position

Even if the above is true it doesn't really say a lot unless we know exactly what is meant by "Without them, you have no possible chance for competitive results." I mean, if he's taking about the GC (of the 2007 TdF) it's not exactly a revolutionary statement.
 
May 19, 2011
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Montanus said:
Wiggo a nobody 2007? He was a track superstar and a olympic gold medalist for christ sake. You are just too much, quoting a comment made by some random guy on a blog, and then use it to demonize Wiggins. I mean WTF?

this is forum. place where you express your opinion. And btw i am only quoting SirLes. you certainly are entitled to disagree but you don't have to act so emotionally like Wiggins did.
 
User Guide said:
You would think/hope as blood altering is the primary doping concern it would be blood everytime no?

Taking a blood draw is a physically invasive procedure. Whilst no B sample is taken purely for a bio passport, a sample of at least 3ml, if they want to also look for serum proteins (HgH, CERA) its 2x5ml.

Over the course of 3 weeks that's a significant amount of blood drawn.
63 - 210 ml (5000 ml is the average adult blood volume).

Add to that the bruising (not every draw but would happen), and if you take that many draws, the poor guy/gal will look like a junkie.

And the slight but real risk of infection.

Blood draw every day is a little too invasive.
Blood draw once per tour is too little.

Blood draw once a week, maybe 4-5 times/tour max is about right.
 
May 21, 2010
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Catwhoorg said:
Taking a blood draw is a physically invasive procedure. Whilst no B sample is taken purely for a bio passport, a sample of at least 3ml, if they want to also look for serum proteins (HgH, CERA) its 2x5ml.

Over the course of 3 weeks that's a significant amount of blood drawn.
63 - 210 ml (5000 ml is the average adult blood volume).

Add to that the bruising (not every draw but would happen), and if you take that many draws, the poor guy/gal will look like a junkie.

And the slight but real risk of infection.

Blood draw every day is a little too invasive.
Blood draw once per tour is too little.

Blood draw once a week, maybe 4-5 times/tour max is about right.
thanks......
 
Mar 10, 2009
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euanli said:

Dr Leinders, first worked with the team in late 2010 and was contracted, on a freelance basis, to do 80 days in 2011 and another 80 days this year.

Haven't Froome's and Wiggins results started improving in 2011?

What does that mean 80 days? 80 days of patient(rider)/doctor contact? 80 working days @ 8-9hrs a day, including office and administrative hours?

Do cyclists, most of whom live a rather solitary life, sometimes in the area they train, normally see their team doctor everyday; 365/365? Of course not.

If he is only talking about doctor/patient consultations, 80 working days over 52 weeks is about 1.5 times per week @ 8-9 hrs a day.

Isn't Ferrari also a 'consulting medical practicioner'?


“There’s nothing he [Leinders] has done since he’s been here to give me any concern. We have had discussions with him and once we’ve established the facts, we will take the appropriate action.”

Of course. He seems to be around 'only' for 80 days per year. So you would hardly notice him at all.

Just enough to do his work, but not enough to be associated with him?

When he is around 'doing things', do you keep tabs on him to see that he isn't 'doing anything of concern'? What if he isn't actively doing things, but omitting to do things, such as, as he appeared to be doing at RAB, 'tolerate and correct doping(excesses).'

Brailsford’s search for doctors with experience in professional cycling was a frustrating one. Finding experienced, respected doctors with detailed knowledge of the demands placed on athletes by events like the Tour de France who had not worked for professional cycling teams was, Brailsford said, not easy. Dr Leinders came highly recommended.

So is Leinders at the Tour de France now to apply his 'detailed knowledge' in the particular context of the TdF 'demands.'

Also, who recommended him?

“This is not about doping. We’re pushing the guys to their limits, so we need to look after them. It’s about genuine medical practice.

I'd love to see the outcome of their investigations.
 
SirLes said:
The question is "what has changed?"

Either the sport must be cleaner or Wiggins must be dirtier.

There is no alternative

It can be both.

The cleaner the sport gets, the more advantageous it is to dope. There are those who see opportunity as doping decreases, much like Armstrong using EPO throughout the 1999 Tour while other teams were too afraid of police raids to use it during the race.
 
Jun 25, 2012
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Guys guys.. You know that the reason Wiggins and Porte did so bad earlier, is because both suffered from the same Rare parasitic disease as Froome.. thats why they are so good now, because leinders cured them!!

So no need to discuss anymore, Sky is clearly clean



Warning.

Some of the upper text might be sacastic...
 
Dr.Sahl said:
Guys guys.. You know that the reason Wiggins and Porte did so bad earlier, is because both suffered from the same Rare parasitic disease as Froome.. thats why they are so good now, because leinders cured them!!

So no need to discuss anymore, Sky is clearly clean



Warning.

Some of the upper text might be sacastic...

Perhaps Froome should set up a foundation for rare parasitic diseases. Awareness needs to be raised.
 
May 26, 2011
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I hear that Wiggins has been working on his speech for the final podium in Paris, 'I'm sorry that you can't dream big. I'm sorry that you don't believe in miracles...' :p
 
Apr 8, 2010
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gooner said:
What I found contradicting was Anthony Tan saying when asking the question "all those idiots on twitter" and then at the same time asking Wiggins is it understandable that he gets asks these questions based on what's gone on with Di Gregorio and that the riders need to gain the public's trust back. If Tan understands the public's suspicion on all this why is he calling them "those idiots on twitter".
...
I thought Tan did this rather well. Yes, it's not logical, but Tan is setting himself up as sympathetic to Wiggins and giving him the space to make a reasoned rational answer, rather than being backed into a defensive rant.

I agree that the follow up questions were not there. Maybe he hadn't had a chance to read Kimmage's piece beforehand.
 
May 26, 2010
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Montanus said:
Wiggo a nobody 2007? He was a track superstar and a olympic gold medalist for christ sake. You are just too much, quoting a comment made by some random guy on a blog, and then use it to demonize Wiggins. I mean WTF?

How many track stars have won GTs?

Next year would be good for Sir Chris Hoy as he wont have the Olympics to concentrate on, so he could sprint around France for 3 weeks in July and win, easy!
 
Dr.Sahl said:
Guys guys.. You know that the reason Wiggins and Porte did so bad earlier, is because both suffered from the same Rare parasitic disease as Froome.. thats why they are so good now, because leinders cured them!!

So no need to discuss anymore, Sky is clearly clean



Warning.

Some of the upper text might be sacastic...

A bit like my spiel about seeing Santiago Pérez when I was at the Vuelta last year, and asking him his opinion of the race, and him saying that Froome's coming-out party had been incredible, and he would never have dared to do something that blatant even at the peak of his doping.

If Santi was on Peña Cabarga, I didn't see him.
 
Jun 25, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
How many track stars have won GTs?

Next year would be good for Sir Chris Hoy as he wont have the Olympics to concentrate on, so he could sprint around France for 3 weeks in July and win, easy!

I guess Sky is looking to grab Mørkøv from Riis, after all Mørkøv is also WC on track and olympic medalist, surely he will be a GC winner later on...

(do you see how silly this is) the arguement about his track performance are of no use here.
 
Jul 6, 2012
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Bala Verde said:
So is Leinders at the Tour de France now to apply his 'detailed knowledge' in the particular context of the TdF 'demands.'

From the article you quoted:

However, Team Sky’s Dave Brailsford told Cycle Sport that recruiting Dr Geert Leinders, who is not at the Tour de France, did not mean the team was engaged in doping.
 
Apr 8, 2010
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"This is not about doping. We’re pushing the guys to their limits, so we need to look after them. It’s about genuine medical practice."
I'm struggling to decide what "genuine medical practice" is in this context.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Montanus said:
From the article you quoted:

Exactly.

So they hire him for the demands of the toughest races such as the TdF, but he is not there to apply 'his detailed knowledge.' (Saddle sores and such....; because they are so easy to treat from a distance.)

In other words, it's a fluff response.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr.Sahl said:
I guess Sky is looking to grab Mørkøv from Riis, after all Mørkøv is also WC on track and olympic medalist, surely he will be a GC winner later on...

(do you see how silly this is) the arguement about his track performance are of no use here.

No one defending Wiggins has made any arguments to convince me something is happening at Sky that is clean.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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I don't know if this article has been posted already:

Kimmage disappointed in Wiggins and Team Sky over transparency

It's an interesting read.

Kimmage said that he arranged to (do the Tour de France) with Sky in 2010 but, on the eve of the race, Bradley Wiggins blocked it from happening as agreed.

“It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it. I went over to Manchester, I sat down with Brailsford and everything was sorted. I hired a van specifically for the purpose of following them for the Tour,” he told VeloNation. “A day before I was to go to Amsterdam, Fran Millar called me and said there was a problem. I went to Amsterdam, sat down with them and Brailsford said, ‘basically, look, Wiggins is not happy. Is it okay if you pick up the team in eight days time?” I said ‘no, it is from the start or nothing,’ and that is where it was left.

“I suppose that was an awareness for me that they were not practicing what they preached. You purport to be this, let’s see what you got, and suddenly when they were asked to back it up, they back down.”


(...)

"The greatest indictment of our profession at the moment is the fact that although Wiggins had this rant about Twitter, that is where the pertinent questions are being asked now: on Twitter.”
 
May 19, 2011
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Square-pedaller said:
"This is not about doping. We’re pushing the guys to their limits, so we need to look after them. It’s about genuine medical practice."
I'm struggling to decide what "genuine medical practice" is in this context.

it is possible they may have some methods may or may not categorized as doping in the future
 

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