Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Any mention of Porte in the 2010 Giro is pretty pointless without also referring to Kiserlovski and Mollema. Maybe even Kruijswijk but my memory isn't that good.

So here i mention them:
Wasn´t Kiserlovski dragging that old cowboy up the mountains most recently. As a domestique he finished 4 of 5 GT´s he has ridden in the T-20.
Mollema three T-12 in six finished GT´s.
Porte 1/3 T-20´s while with Sky as domestique.
So if you ask me, all of them are pretty much on the same level. Remember; even if the clinic has a GT win scored for him already, he hasn´t done it yet. So it´s pointless to speculate about what ifs...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Same goes on in other (unrelated to Sky) threads. For fairness the rules shall apply the same.

Anyway, since I only have one braincell, please enlighten me.
So far Sky has (since 2010) 6 podiums in GT´s, Liquigas 5, Caisse/Movistar 4, SAX-KAT-AST-LEO/RSH each 3.
If Sky is the big evil here, it just doesn´t show up in the standings. Far from dominating, even tough having the highest payroll, thus best riders...

I have a little thingy for you:

http://www.slideshare.net/jonesy2008/what-are-the-5-ws-presentation

Could be helpfull.

And, really, the money argument? Why arent you're favourite Spanish football teams winning every CL?

http://www.ridemedia.com.au/?p=8988

Fränk Schleck is the big star I gelled with the most. It was a simple thing: one day we rode together up a mountain to simulate a race and he said to me, ‘You’re a good bike rider’. It meant so much to me, a neo-pro, that a guy like him would give me the time of day. Now he’s become a friend.

Well, well, well, marginal gains at Team Saxo? Me was taught only swimcoaches knew this cycling secret?

The following year I moved to Monsummanese Bedogni Grassi, a team managed by Andrea Tafi based in the town where Brett Lancaster and his family live.

Nice team:
http://www.museociclismo.it/content/squadre/squadra/11141-Bedogni-Grassi-Natalini/index.html

He, there is Salvatore Puccio, coincidence!

But this is more fun:
http://www.museociclismo.it/content/articoli/articolo.php?type=cicl&tot=1&da=0&strparam=NDg0NDU=

dei presidenti Giacomo Pasqui e Paolo Chiesa

Giacomo Pasqui:
http://www.ciclismo-online.it/index...rrestato-pasquimisure-cautelati-per-7-persone

Paolo Chiesa:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5404/Doping-Lampre-coach-Bontempi-heard-in-Petacchi-case.aspx

It is such a small world. No wonder Bjarne got him.

 

[Ferminal]

So here i mention them:
Wasn´t Kiserlovski dragging that old cowboy up the mountains most recently. As a domestique he finished 4 of 5 GT´s he has ridden in the T-20.
Mollema three T-12 in six finished GT´s.
Porte 1/3 T-20´s while with Sky as domestique.
So if you ask me, all of them are pretty much on the same level. Remember; even if the clinic has a GT win scored for him already, he hasn´t done it yet. So it´s pointless to speculate about what ifs...

I was more talking about Porte when he rides for himself. None of them have come close to the ability he showed in March-April this year.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Basically it comes down to this: Sky is not overperforming compared to other teams. .

Haha. Really? Other teams were powerless at the TdF. Until the wheels came off the Wiggo wagon at the Giro, that grand tour was shaping up to be another Sky peloton domination scheme.

All but one rider had great results before joining them. .

Uh huh. Yeah, until that Bhihariza(sp??) came along Froome was destroying the lower-ranked races. And Porte? Oh yeah. Destroying fields at lower ranks so he can fly up Alpe d' Huez, then down, then up again deep into the third week(??? maybe second) to support Froome.

So you blame Porte for a normal steady improvement in his 20s?

Again, since EPO there is no normal. So, abandon ANY idea of "normal development."

If you'd like to use riders prior to EPO, great GT riders showed up the first time and pretty much made top-10 baring misfortune. Again, first or second time, the GT greats were top-10. AND THEN THEY RODE THE SHARP END OF THE REST OF THE ELITE RACES ON THE CALENDAR most of the year. All of that consistency has vanished since the introduction of EPO.

Wiggo, Froome, Porte all fit the classic doping profile. Destroy fields then vanish. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Colombians that rode for Sky next year as they were in fact the only riders with some good results at lower-ranked events.

 

[Parker]

If you'd like to use riders prior to EPO, great GT riders showed up the first time and pretty much made top-10 baring misfortune. Again, first or second time, the GT greats were top-10. AND THEN THEY RODE THE SHARP END OF THE REST OF THE ELITE RACES ON THE CALENDAR most of the year. All of that consistency has vanished since the introduction of EPO.

Wiggo, Froome, Porte all fit the classic doping profile. Destroy fields then vanish.

That's strange. Because other people on this forum have argued the complete opposite. That Sky consistently winning (or nearly winning) stage races from February to July is also a sign of doping.

How can it be both?

 

[Benotti69]

That's strange. Because other people on this forum have argued the complete opposite. That Sky consistently winning (or nearly winning) stage races from February to July is also a sign of doping.

How can it be both?

McQuaid can answer that no doubt

That Sky won nearly every stage race from March to July and failed in one day races shows another side to their doping. LeMond, Hinault, Fignon et al all won monuments and big classics as well as GTs. Sky have not done this or sniffed near it.

 

[BYOP88]

McQuaid can answer that no doubt

That Sky won nearly every stage race from March to July and failed in one day races shows another side to their doping. LeMond, Hinault, Fignon et al all won monuments and big classics as well as GTs. Sky have not done this or sniffed near it.

Hmm what was that American team called who "won" the TdF a few years in a row? They seemed to suck at one day races too.

 

[Parker]

McQuaid can answer that no doubt

That Sky won nearly every stage race from March to July and failed in one day races shows another side to their doping. LeMond, Hinault, Fignon et al all won monuments and big classics as well as GTs. Sky have not done this or sniffed near it.

Teams have more money these days and there's more decent riders to pick from. Teams have worked out that the best person at going up a 10km mountain might not be the best person to ride across cobbles. They can get several specialists rather than flogging one star rider all year round.
Even in the 80s the likes of Delgado, Herrera and Hampsten did little in the classics and the likes of Raas, Argentin and van der Poel didn't exactly feature on GCs

Good for only a couple of races? Proof of doping. Good at lot's of races? Proof of doping. Good at only one sort of race? Proof of doping. Good at lots of types of races? Proof of doping

Everything is proof of doping. It's typical clinic truthiness. Half of you have confused yourself so much by know you no longer know what you think. There's just a big flashing sign in your head saying 'doping'.

 

[darwin553]

Same goes on in other (unrelated to Sky) threads. For fairness the rules shall apply the same.

Anyway, since I only have one braincell, please enlighten me.
So far Sky has (since 2010) 6 podiums in GT´s, Liquigas 5, Caisse/Movistar 4, SAX-KAT-AST-LEO/RSH each 3.
If Sky is the big evil here, it just doesn´t show up in the standings. Far from dominating, even tough having the highest payroll, thus best riders...

To be fair and I am largely on the same page as you but I don't remember US Postal dominating outside of the TdF either.

 

[DirtyWorks]

That's strange. Because other people on this forum have argued the complete opposite. That Sky consistently winning (or nearly winning) stage races from February to July is also a sign of doping.

How can it be both?

Because Sky had multiple legitimate stage racing contenders. Break it down by assumed leaders at stage races and things look ridiculous.
-Froome and Porte appearing and destroying everyone, every time on a light schedule. It bears repeating this field destruction didn't occur at lower-ranked races.
-Wiggo doing well on a light schedule until the Giro
-The Colombians on a lighter schedule doing fantastic.

From Sky's site, Froome's HEAVY 2013 schedule:
11-16 February Tour of Oman Froome-dog destroys
6-12 March Tirreno - Adriatico Froome-dog destroys without Porte
--break--
23-24 March Criterium International Froome-dog Porte destroy all!!!!!
---long break spring classics---
21 April Liege - Bastogne - Liege (Froome and Porte ride a one-day!)
23 - 28 April Tour de Romandie Froome-dog destroys!
2 - 9 June Criterium du Dauphine (Froome Porte return and destroy)
---long break---
29 June - 21 July Tdf (Froome Porte return and destroy)
---
--cycling appearance fees holiday starts
---
19 - 25 August Colorado (Froome Porte joy-riding around Colorado)
13 September Quebec (Froome Porte joy-ride)
15 September Montreal (Froome Porte joy-ride)
---
--cycling appearance fees holiday ends
---
25 September TT Monster Froome doesn't ride the ITT. Seems legit.

##############
Wiggo's 2013 HEAVY schedule:
3-6 February Trofeo races
11-16 February Tour of Oman Froome-dog destroys
16-19 April Giro del Trentino
18 - 24 March Volta a Catalunya
4 - 26 May Giro (Wheels fall off Wiggo wagon, injury, mentally retires)
--eventually races above average
25 September TT Monster destroys. Seems legit.


Meanwhile Porte destroys without Froome:
1 - 6 April Vuelta al Pais Vasco

 

[Parker]

Because Sky had multiple legitimate stage racing contenders. Break it down by assumed leaders at stage races and things look ridiculous.
-Froome and Porte appearing and destroying everyone, every time on a light schedule. It bears repeating this field destruction didn't occur at lower-ranked races.
-Wiggo doing well on a light schedule until the Giro
-The Colombians on a lighter schedule doing fantastic.

So they had lots of good riders and shared them around the races to ensure the best results for the team. Everyone gets good rest between races. Seems sensible to me. What do you think they should do? Assume there is no doping, but with the same riders - what schedule would you expect from a Tour GC contender?

 

[EnacheV]

McQuaid can answer that no doubt

That Sky won nearly every stage race from March to July and failed in one day races shows another side to their doping. LeMond, Hinault, Fignon et al all won monuments and big classics as well as GTs. Sky have not done this or sniffed near it.

Put 5-6 TT's in the tour, like when those won, and you will see the same thing.

With 30-50km of flat TT and 5-6 mountain stages you will never see again fatties like the ones you mentioned winning TdF.

 

[meat puppet]

^ fatties? they probably had body fat percentages in the range of 5-10.

so surely you mean non-AICAR takers.

the trouble with the logic implied by your claim, of course, is that somehow the modern stick insects manage to do very well in ITTs too.

all in all, this is hilarious.

 

[EnacheV]

^ fatties? they probably had body fat percentages in the range of 5-10.

so surely you mean non-AICAR takers.

the trouble with the logic implied by your claim, of course, is that somehow the modern stick insects manage to do very well in ITTs too.

all in all, this is hilarious.

i think it's more likely to be something related to the period

i remember Liverpool being a team of fatties to, compared to today's looks

Ofc this dude can win classics style races

While this one can't (well camera setting helps but not much)

Found one even more telling

Still, if today's TdF would be like the ones in 1980, with great amounts of TT, and generally much flatter course, the winners will look completely different from today's skinny insects.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Found one even more telling

.

Contador's thinking ' wtf are you always lookin at down there ?? '

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

Still, if today's TdF would be like the ones in 1980, with great amounts of TT, and generally much flatter course, the winners will look completely different from today's skinny insects.

Last years TdF had a lot of TT that Skinny riders Wigans and Froome destroyed the rest of the field in!

Sky dope. It is obvious to those not blinded by their worship of them.

 

[leon7766]

Last years TdF had a lot of TT that Skinny riders Wigans and Froome destroyed the rest of the field in!

Sky dope. It is obvious to those not blinded by their worship of them.

But its now a year and some since Wiggins won and still their is nothing but fantasies from you and your fellows. Bring the evidence, bring the proof surely someone in this global conspiracy will come forward .

Nothing

 

[Benotti69]

But its now a year and some since Wiggins won and still their is nothing but fantasies from you and your fellows. Bring the evidence, bring the proof surely someone in this global conspiracy will come forward .

Nothing

Fantasies? The smilarities between Sky and USPS are numerous.

You ask for proof? Who was Team Sky's doctor? Geert Leinders, a doping doctor. In a 'reason decision' that counts as evidence.

'Global conspiracy' is a term that Armstrong's minion would post here along with 'no evidence' and 'never tested positive'.

TeamSky the 'clean' team beating all the doping teams in July. They ride unicorns disguised as pinarellos.

 

[meat puppet]

@cyclingpro: We have seen the Srm files of the Sir Wiggo wc time trial: an average of 445 watt & 98 rpm!!!!

didn't he boast somewhat higher values for last seasons' key TTs in his book? might misremember tho, but genuinely interested, because that would amount to an objecteive benchmark of difference in form between thesetwo seasons.

also, he was lighter last year.

 

[Bumeington]

@cyclingpro: We have seen the Srm files of the Sir Wiggo wc time trial: an average of 445 watt & 98 rpm!!!!

didn't he boast somewhat higher values for last seasons' key TTs in his book? might misremember tho, but genuinely interested, because that would amount to an objecteive benchmark of difference in form between thesetwo seasons.

also, he was lighter last year.

Tour de France 2012 boast: 450-60W at 69kg
Worlds 2011 SRM: 453W at 71kg
British national 10 mile 2011 SRM: 476W with CdA 0.224

Personally I think Wiggins' numbers now fit in perfectly with his previous numbers (on osymmetric being inflated by ~4%)

So Worlds 2011 Wiggins 435W for 55 mins so (433W ftp) versus 445W now (heavier - 447.5W ftp). Main reason being that estimating Tony Martin's ftp from Wiggin's power gives almost exactly the same watts in 2011 and 2013 (2063 W/CdA or 462W if same CdA as Wiggins)

 

[LaFlorecita]

^ fatties? they probably had body fat percentages in the range of 5-10.

so surely you mean non-AICAR takers.

the trouble with the logic implied by your claim, of course, is that somehow the modern stick insects manage to do very well in ITTs too.

all in all, this is hilarious.

Agreed it is very funny

 

[LaFlorecita]

While this one can't (well camera setting helps but not much)

Good job using the most ridiculous picture of the most suspicious rider in the peloton to support your argument.

Found one even more telling

Very telling indeed:
Contador: skinny but normal, natural slender build
Froome: WTF skinny

Still, if today's TdF would be like the ones in 1980, with great amounts of TT, and generally much flatter course, the winners will look completely different from today's skinny insects.

Why, when it is obviously possible to be a world class tter while being a walking skeleton?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Contador's thinking ' wtf are you always lookin at down there ?? '

Nice

 

[happychappy]

Contador: skinny but normal, natural slender build

Not quite, since Contadope needs to use Clenbuterol to get rid of the excess lard he puts on in the off-season.

 

[LaFlorecita]

He was trying to get closer to WTF skinny obviously, but hey this is not the Contador thread.