Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the sceptic]

Well said. This isn't a turf war, there are no winners and losers and I respect any opinion anyone holds. However I often find mine is mispresented and people will simply argue the toss because of that. Discussion is constructive, mockery and scorn aren't.

I think.

 

[ElChingon]

Id watch that. The wire, only with cycling!

There would be too many other sports lobbing against it, it might open too many eyes on them.

 

[lemoogle]

It's a shame that you do see 'them' as the 'opposition'. 'They' are simply people who have an opposing opinion or simply take a neutral position to others on whether Sky dope. Many simply haven't definitively decided one way or the other.
Even very pro-sky posters if they exist (skybots/fanbois etc..) I think would agree that they want the sport they enjoy to be clean. The fact they aren't vehemently calling Sky out as blatant dopers doesn't preclude them from wanting a clean sport. Being a Sky supporter doesn't automatically make one a supporter of doping.

I remain reasonably wary of sky but not enough to say absolutely they are doping (I wouldn't bet my house on it!). I would like SKY and all other teams to do far more than they currently are to at least give confidence to us fans that they are competing cleanly.

How nice would it be to see the performances we are seeing, achieved by clean cyclists and have confidence in proclaiming those performances as clean.

I agree, and apologies if opposition is not the right word, I was mainly referring to how the situation has gotten loopy...
There's been plenty more reason over the last few months to doubt sky and pretty much and very little to show otherwise ( making a few people sign a paper doesnt mean much ). Just expressing how it can be frustrating for some of the people on here to want to discuss whatever suspicion they have but have to deal with the same defense again and again. And most of those people know so much more about cycling than I do.

Anyway in my opinion, I don't know why sky fans care so much about defending their team's "values", surely sky could do that themselves? by releasing test results?etc... why a certain bunch of individuals think they're Sky's PR USPS style blanks my mind.

Believe me I wish these were clean performances, but I have so little
reason to believe in them.

 

[peloton]

Well said. This isn't a turf war, there are no winners and losers and I respect any opinion anyone holds. However I often find mine is mispresented and people will simply argue the toss because of that. Discussion is constructive, mockery and scorn aren't.

I think.

That's probably because you post in almost every thread in the clinic?
Just a guess

Nothing wrong in being a Sky fan, but if the Sky train beats clean riders and convicted dopers, well, yeah... I don't believe in miracles.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

That's maybe a bit unfair on Dear Wiggo. His biases are obvious enough, as is his temper, but he posts some pretty useful questions, his exchanges with acoggan, for example are useful in that they force acoggan and the like to clarify their posts, and I don't doubt his genuine anti-doping views. The forums probably a better place for his being in it.

thehog is just our house-troll, really. I wasn't aware he was even aussie. House-trolls are citizens of the world. Best accepted for humour value only, the mods rarely move against him, and when the 'humour value' wears off, put on the ignore list. There's little point getting wound up at him; it's basically what he wants and I don't think even his acolytes take him that seriously, whatever they might claim.

As the line goes - never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty, and the pig enjoys it.

The key thing to remember; the ignore list is your friend. Those who are completely either offensive or hopeless go on it. It makes life very much easier, and actual debate continues.

Plus spend some time on non-clinic threads. It helps a lot to get some sensible perspective.

Says the guy from the country that keeps electing Fat McQuaid to lead Cycling Ireland...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Been reading this forum for a while now and learnt a great deal in the process.

Have to say, I'm definitely in the sky is doping camp after weighing up the arguments, but, certain people and their attitudes on this forum have made it almost unreadable. Well informed, informative posts are just clouded by the absolute drivel posted by people like the hog and dear wiggo. As an Aussie, I can quite clearly see an agenda of just dig the Brits at any opportunity which is exactly what they do. It's embarrassing, sad and unfortunately is the attitude of many of my countrymen on this forum and otherwise.

Well done to those of you who have contributed to a valid and important discussion. I just can't read this forum anymore.

You write that like it's a bad thing.

 

[martinvickers]

Says the guy from the country that keeps electing Fat McQuaid to lead Cycling Ireland...

Actually, the cycling ireland board nominate him, not elect him, to lead world cycling, not Cycling Ireland. The board lead cycling ireland, and McQuaids not a member of it.

The other 6 million odd of us aren't given a vote in either matter.

So I share a nationality with a group of CI board members. How exactly is that relevant to this discussion?

It isn't - it's just a little snark.

 

[peloton]

Been reading this forum for a while now and learnt a great deal in the process.

Have to say, I'm definitely in the sky is doping camp after weighing up the arguments, but, certain people and their attitudes on this forum have made it almost unreadable. Well informed, informative posts are just clouded by the absolute drivel posted by (some) people. As an Aussie, I can quite clearly see an agenda of just dig the Brits at any opportunity which is exactly what they do. It's embarrassing, sad and unfortunately is the attitude of many of my countrymen on this forum and otherwise.

Well done to those of you who have contributed to a valid and important discussion. I just can't read this forum anymore.

Why did you register and post then?

 

[FGimondi]

To me the problem with Sky is that they're picking talent out of nowhere.

I struggle to believe that they would have faced the kind of backlash they are on this thread if they had actually used their huge budget to attract the best talent around. If they had hired guys like Nibali and others with proven GT potential and used their bugdet to dominate the sport I don't think any of us would have been surprised. Would they still have been doping? Yes. Would it have caused the outrage and disbelief that you can see here? No. Instead they chose to put their bugdet towards turning pack fodder and nobodies into world beaters.

Yes, I've read all the arguments wich according to certain posters explain Froome, Porte and, yes, even Wiggins miraculous improvements. And honestly they all sound ludicrous and eerily unoriginal to me.

From donkeys to race horses. That's the story of Sky and that's the story of doping in cycling over the last 20 years.

So, sorry. I will not suspend my disbelief just because Sky are spouting US Postal like postulates about cleanliness. In cycling today belief in clean performances has to be earned not meritlessly expected.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Actually, the cycling ireland board nominate him, not elect him, to lead world cycling, not Cycling Ireland. The board lead cycling ireland, and McQuaids not a member of it.

The other 6 million odd of us aren't given a vote in either matter.

So I share a nationality with a group of CI board members. How exactly is that relevant to this discussion?

It isn't - it's just a little snark.

You share the nationality of a group of CI corrupt idiots, lets be clear.

And I like to think it was big snark...

Either way, you are throwing your panties around because sky has all the appearances of a doped up freak show. That was and really always is my main complaint. If the hog is our troll, you are our village idiot.

 

[xrayvision]

I think the most scary scenario I could ever imagine in cycling would be if Contador signed the SKYBORGS...Game over!!!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You write that like it's a bad thing.

It makes no odds to us British. We can withstand the petty insults of our ex-colonies with a typical stiff upper lip and afternoon G&Ts on the terrace.

It's bad news for the people with the anti-Brit agenda though as it demonstrates that they have some sort of inferiority complex and need to take cheap shots at the British to make them feel better about themselves.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think the most scary scenario I could ever imagine in cycling would be if Contador signed the SKYBORGS...Game over!!!

Not possible. He's already served a ban. He doesn't fit the ZTP like a glove like Rogers, Barry, de Jongh or Flecha.

 

[martinvickers]

You share the nationality of a group of CI corrupt idiots, lets be clear.

And I like to think it was big snark...

Either way, you are throwing your panties around because sky has all the appearances of a doped up freak show. That was and really always is my main complaint. If the hog is our troll, you are our village idiot.

You sad little boy.

How have you not ended up on my ignore list before now? An oversight.

Well, now it's remedied. Now, go play with the other children, and don't eat the yellow snow any more.

 

[spalco]

Hm, so GW501516 has been around since 2006, AICAR since 2008 or so, and both are potentially really ****ing dangerous, and it's easily detectable, and I'm supposed to believe that's Sky's magic potion that explains why they win stage races? Doesn't add up for me.

 

[andy1234]

You sad little boy.

How have you not ended up on my ignore list before now? An oversight.

Well, now it's remedied. Now, go play with the other children, and don't eat the yellow snow any more.

It makes no odds to us British. We can withstand the petty insults of our ex-colonies with a typical stiff upper lip and afternoon G&Ts on the terrace.

It's bad news for the people with the anti-Brit agenda though as it demonstrates that they have some sort of inferiority complex and need to take cheap shots at the British to make them feel better about themselves.

It must be tough being an American, so go easy on them....

 

[martinvickers]

It must be tough being an American, so go easy on them....

Who's American? Chewbacca?

 

[martinvickers]

Hm, so GW501516 has been around since 2006, AICAR since 2008 or so, and both are potentially really ****ing dangerous, and it's easily detectable, and I'm supposed to believe that's Sky's magic potion that explains why they win stage races? Doesn't add up for me.

Ssshhh, don't spoil it!

 

[Netserk]

The topic is Sky.

Please stop the personal bickering.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Hm, so GW501516 has been around since 2006, AICAR since 2008 or so, and both are potentially really ****ing dangerous, and it's easily detectable, and I'm supposed to believe that's Sky's magic potion that explains why they win stage races? Doesn't add up for me.

Hopefully this example will help:

EPO has been around the professional peloton since the 90s.

The EPO test has been available since 2000.

EPO is rumoured to have killed riders, and certainly lead them to wearing heart rate monitors in their sleep to wake them up when their heartrate went too low, so they could get up and do something about it.

None (?) of the USADA people who wrote affidavits ever tested positive for EPO, and yet all confessed to using it, years after the fact, as part of the reasoned decision.

EPO had a dramatic effect on the peloton and the performances of the riders using it.

PEDs are rarely used in isolation. ie more than one is used, for different purposes, possibly at different times of the year / training+racing cycle.

The wealthier you are, the more likely you can
1. employ doctor(s) to help you use PEDs more effectively, from both a response and testing point of view
2. get access to new (versions of) PEDs, leaving the (older) PEDs that now have tests ratified for them, behind
3. wield influence in the rarified atmosphere of cycling's upper echelons about whose profile gets tested and by whom, etc.

These are all points that have been expounded through the recent USADA / LA or BALCO cases, and not much has been provided publicly as indication of proof that anything has changed very much at all.


ETA: looks like GW501516 was banned in 2009 but the test capaciity has only just been announced now, this year.

 

[wwabbit]

So, getting back on topic, Sky has started asking people to fill in an online survey.
http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,17546_8633055,00.html

Towards the end of the survey there's a huge section asking what you think about Sky's stance towards doping and whether you believe Sky is really clean, and all that.

Sounds like a great opportunity for Clinic experts here to tell them what you really think!

 

[spalco]

The wealthier you are, the more likely you can
1. employ doctor(s) to help you use PEDs more effectively, from both a response and testing point of view
2. get access to new (versions of) PEDs, leaving the (older) PEDs that now have tests ratified for them, behind
3. wield influence in the rarified atmosphere of cycling's upper echelons about whose profile gets tested and by whom, etc.

These are all points that have been expounded through the recent USADA / LA or BALCO cases, and not much has been provided publicly as indication of proof that anything has changed very much at all.

I agree with all that. But just like EPO alone didn't explain the success of USPS/Discovery, this drug can't explain Sky's. Because if they use it, so must be others.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I agree with all that. But just like EPO alone didn't explain the success of USPS/Discovery, this drug can't explain Sky's. Because if they use it, so must be others.

Could not agree more.

 

[Netserk]

So, getting back on topic, Sky has started asking people to fill in an online survey.
http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,17546_8633055,00.html

Towards the end of the survey there's a huge section asking what you think about Sky's stance towards doping and whether you believe Sky is really clean, and all that.

Sounds like a great opportunity for Clinic experts here to tell them what you really think!

 

[The Hitch]

How can cricket be as bad as cycling? A very large % of its professionals are people who's first language is English.