Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[will10]

I suspect conditions were somewhat less favourable for the later teams. Not just Garmin but BMC, Orica and Omega would all be expected to perform better than they did.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I suspect conditions were somewhat less favourable for the later teams. Not just Garmin but BMC, Orica and Omega would all be expected to perform better than they did.

Won't stop too much getting read into it

 

[JimmyFingers]

Froome and Wiggins performances will be analyzed by Frédéric Portoleau and Antoine Vayer in "Did they dope ? 21 counts".

Can't wait. How much do I have to pay to find out?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Can't wait. How much do I have to pay to find out?

Just watch the reruns of last years Tour Jimmy.



Utube is your friend.

Look at Vini Fantini... No TT specialist but still beat Garmin as well..... Lampre as well...

I was surprised Euskaltel didnt even beat the Clean Team

Again a mechanical today? Sivtzov was it? Electronic shifting really is tha bomb it seems. Just not in Italy, must be the radio transmitters or something.

 

[martinvickers]

Always the dig at the end. Big.

What dig? What's your point?

 

[ianfra]

Playing God?

All of you posters here who go on and on and on at length about Sky have not yet produced a shred of evidence to prove what you are saying is correct. Indeed all you cowards who make allegations whilst hiding behind an alias and a computer screen know that you won't get sued (or have your teeth knocked out!) for your defamations, lies and allegations. I could accept what you say if you qualified what you said as personal opinion, but you guys have such a monopoly on truth that you post opinion as fact. I think these are very nasty and unwarranted slurs against good people - worse even than those often unfounded allegations made by dirty cheap tabloid journalists. Decent human beings don't make these kind of slurs and allegations. Why don't you put up or shut up? And the sad thing I have noticed here is that you are not content with libelling Sky and their riders - you start accusing me of being paid by Sky (I wish!!!!!, I could do with the money) and making other libellous and scandulous allegations about me when you know absolutely nothing. It follows a pattern, doesn't it? You know nothing about Sky, British Cycling, Ian Boswell or Wiggo for that matter, but you post as if you are in possession of facts. Let's see those facts. Let's see the truth. I ask you to kindly put up or shut up.

 

[Franklin]

All of you posters here who go on and on and on at length about Sky have not yet produced a shred of evidence to prove what you are saying is correct. Indeed all you cowards who make allegations whilst hiding behind an alias and a computer screen know that you won't get sued (or have your teeth knocked out!) for your defamations, lies and allegations.

RAHRAHRAH!

Let's throw in a physical threat to show how balanced and fair minded I am!

I could accept what you say if you qualified what you said as personal opinion, but you guys have such a monopoly on truth that you post opinion as fact. I think these are very nasty and unwarranted slurs against good people - worse even than those often unfounded allegations made by dirty cheap tabloid journalists. Decent human beings don't make these kind of slurs and allegations. Why don't you put up or shut up?

Ianfra, you can not deny that statistically the likelihood of a clean GT winner is extremely small. You can't deny the many facts around the team that are in direct contradiction of their own anti-doping charter. Yet you bask in the glory of your idols and refuse questioning them.

Fair and even minded indeed!

And the sad thing I have noticed here is that you are not content with libelling Sky and their riders - you start accusing me of being paid by Sky (I wish!!!!!, I could do with the money) and making other libellous and scandulous allegations about me when you know absolutely nothing. It follows a pattern, doesn't it? You know nothing about Sky, British Cycling, Ian Boswell or Wiggo for that matter, but you post as if you are in possession of facts. Let's see those facts. Let's see the truth. I ask you to kindly put up or shut up.

Facts, I'll gladly remind you again of just a few.

1. They hired a doping doctor.
2. They broke their antidoping charter knowingly (admission DB)
3. They started to rage about anti doping questions
4. They are lieing about the tenure of Leinders.
5. Statistically every GT winner is supect. Wiggins actually agreed on this before he became one himself
6. Sean Yates is best buddies with a known Doping smugler (Motoman)

Rather irrefutable Ianmyman. You have been confronted with them before and always ignored them as well... they are facts and thus irreftable.

But let's wave that away as you know these people oh so well.

Who dares to question Sky when they are such good and decent people!

 

[ianfra]

RAHRAHRAH!

Let's throw in a physical threat to show how balanced and fair minded I am!



Ianfra, you can not deny that statistically the likelihood of a clean GT winner is extremely small. You can't deny the many facts around the team that are in direct contradiction of their own anti-doping charter. Yet you bask in the glory of your idols and refuse questioning them.

Fair and even minded indeed!



Facts, I'll gladly remind you again of just a few.

1. They hired a doping doctor.
2. They broke their antidoping charter knowingly (admission DB)
3. They started to rage about anti doping questions
4. They are lieing about the tenure of Leinders.
5. Statistically every GT winner is supect. Wiggins actually agreed on this before he became one himself
6. Sean Yates is best buddies with a known Doping smugler (Motoman)

Rather irrefutable Ianmyman. You have been confronted with them before and always ignored them as well... they are facts and thus irreftable.

But let's wave that away as you know these people oh so well.

Who dares to question Sky when they are such good and decent people!

These maybe facts but they are not evidence. Where's the evidence Mr know-it-all?
And it still does not address the main drift of my post. Why is it that you can take a random selection of events and connections and say that this proves they are doping. Would not stand up in a court of law.

 

[Froome19]

It follows a pattern, doesn't it? You know nothing about Sky, British Cycling, Ian Boswell or Wiggo for that matter, but you post as if you are in possession of facts. Let's see those facts. Let's see the truth. I ask you to kindly put up or shut up.

edited for netserk

 

[Ferminal]

Of course, how else do you make up your mind if you do not believe you are in possession of facts. But they are almost always subjective facts, and it should be pretty easy to see that when one is expressing an opinion, they are basing it on many subjective facts.

 

[Franklin]

These maybe facts but they are not evidence. Where's the evidence Mr know-it-all?

where did I ever claim I had evidence? In fact, for laughs, you don't realize I'm not convinced they dope, but you are so set in your BLACK/WHITE views you don't realize someone can see bad stuff without jumping to conclusions.

And it still does not address the main drift of my post. Why is it that you can take a random selection of events and connections and say that this proves they are doping. Would not stand up in a court of law.

It doesn't stand up in a court of law.

Is this a court of law? Oh, no it isn't, now is it?

Oh "and a random selection of events and connections", is flat-out-wrong.

1. They involve one team
2. They involve dopingpolicy

Then if we zoom in: We saw this structure (doping doctor, big results, lies)many, many times before. And every time this has meant DOPING. The odds are extremely stacked against Sky.

All we have to counter that is faith. Faith against facts, it's not a real competition in my eyes.

 

[Benotti69]

.............Would not stand up in a court of law.

A sport as corrupt as cycling which is dirty from the top UCI (McQuaid/Verbruggen) down to the members in small nations (cycling Ireland) and all in between (with few exceptions), to bring in the argument 'not stand up in a court of law' is pretty sad and ignores all that is wrong with the sport.

 

[leon7766]

He was playing to all sides?

This would make sense pre 2012 Olympics, because any real criticism of British contenders was off limits.

Not in Britain we are different sadly people are to jealous of us to give credit

 

[leon7766]

All of you posters here who go on and on and on at length about Sky have not yet produced a shred of evidence to prove what you are saying is correct. Indeed all you cowards who make allegations whilst hiding behind an alias and a computer screen know that you won't get sued (or have your teeth knocked out!) for your defamations, lies and allegations. I could accept what you say if you qualified what you said as personal opinion, but you guys have such a monopoly on truth that you post opinion as fact. I think these are very nasty and unwarranted slurs against good people - worse even than those often unfounded allegations made by dirty cheap tabloid journalists. Decent human beings don't make these kind of slurs and allegations. Why don't you put up or shut up? And the sad thing I have noticed here is that you are not content with libelling Sky and their riders - you start accusing me of being paid by Sky (I wish!!!!!, I could do with the money) and making other libellous and scandulous allegations about me when you know absolutely nothing. It follows a pattern, doesn't it? You know nothing about Sky, British Cycling, Ian Boswell or Wiggo for that matter, but you post as if you are in possession of facts. Let's see those facts. Let's see the truth. I ask you to kindly put up or shut up.

Well said mate although they do have straws they keep clutching .Very thin straws

 

[leon7766]

RAHRAHRAH!

Let's throw in a physical threat to show how balanced and fair minded I am!



Ianfra, you can not deny that statistically the likelihood of a clean GT winner is extremely small. You can't deny the many facts around the team that are in direct contradiction of their own anti-doping charter. Yet you bask in the glory of your idols and refuse questioning them.

Fair and even minded indeed!



Facts, I'll gladly remind you again of just a few.

1. They hired a doping doctor.
2. They broke their antidoping charter knowingly (admission DB)
3. They started to rage about anti doping questions
4. They are lieing about the tenure of Leinders.
5. Statistically every GT winner is supect. Wiggins actually agreed on this before he became one himself
6. Sean Yates is best buddies with a known Doping smugler (Motoman)

Rather irrefutable Ianmyman. You have been confronted with them before and always ignored them as well... they are facts and thus irreftable.

But let's wave that away as you know these people oh so well.

Who dares to question Sky when they are such good and decent people!

See almost non existent straws

 

[leon7766]

A sport as corrupt as cycling which is dirty from the top UCI (McQuaid/Verbruggen) down to the members in small nations (cycling Ireland) and all in between (with few exceptions), to bring in the argument 'not stand up in a court of law' is pretty sad and ignores all that is wrong with the sport.

Whereas you ignore all that is right with the sport

 

[LaFlorecita]

You know you post BS when leon agrees with you

 

[Zam_Olyas]

All of you posters here who go on and on and on at length about Sky have not yet produced a shred of evidence to prove what you are saying is correct. Indeed all you cowards who make allegations whilst hiding behind an alias and a computer screen know that you won't get sued (or have your teeth knocked out!) for your defamations, lies and allegations. I could accept what you say if you qualified what you said as personal opinion, but you guys have such a monopoly on truth that you post opinion as fact. I think these are very nasty and unwarranted slurs against good people - worse even than those often unfounded allegations made by dirty cheap tabloid journalists. Decent human beings don't make these kind of slurs and allegations. Why don't you put up or shut up? And the sad thing I have noticed here is that you are not content with libelling Sky and their riders - you start accusing me of being paid by Sky (I wish!!!!!, I could do with the money) and making other libellous and scandulous allegations about me when you know absolutely nothing. It follows a pattern, doesn't it? You know nothing about Sky, British Cycling, Ian Boswell or Wiggo for that matter, but you post as if you are in possession of facts. Let's see those facts. Let's see the truth. I ask you to kindly put up or shut up.

That's better than accusing of only sitting at home infront of a computer and masturbating all the time.

getting our tooth knock out by you

 

[hrotha]

This "hiding behind a screenname" thing is ridiculous as always. A screenname won't protect you if you say anything that someone feels like sueing you for (you know IPs are traceable, right?). Most of us use screennames because this is how the internet works and our names are largely irrelevant because no one knows most of us anyway.

Even people whose identities are actually well known tend to use screennames (JV1973, elizab, TexPat). This is the internet. You're in the internet too, so try to understand how it works maybe?

 

[spalco]

Posters like ianfra make me want to pick up a pitchfork and storm Sky HQ.

He's not necessarily wrong, but he's also not right, because he misses the point. If there was any "evidence" the discussion here would be over already. And on the other hand, if evidence was required to be suspicious of an athlete, this forum would lose its purpose completely.

eta: and nobody, not even the most fanatic Sky-hater here would deny that there are "good people" at Sky, but unfortunately being a good guy doesn't mean one is clean. And liking somebody personally doesn't mean you should close your eyes to his doping.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

All of you posters here who go on and on and on at length about Sky have not yet produced a shred of evidence to prove what you are saying is correct. Indeed all you cowards who make allegations whilst hiding behind an alias and a computer screen know that you won't get sued (or have your teeth knocked out!) for your defamations, lies and allegations. I could accept what you say if you qualified what you said as personal opinion, but you guys have such a monopoly on truth that you post opinion as fact. I think these are very nasty and unwarranted slurs against good people - worse even than those often unfounded allegations made by dirty cheap tabloid journalists. Decent human beings don't make these kind of slurs and allegations. Why don't you put up or shut up? And the sad thing I have noticed here is that you are not content with libelling Sky and their riders - you start accusing me of being paid by Sky (I wish!!!!!, I could do with the money) and making other libellous and scandulous allegations about me when you know absolutely nothing. It follows a pattern, doesn't it? You know nothing about Sky, British Cycling, Ian Boswell or Wiggo for that matter, but you post as if you are in possession of facts. Let's see those facts. Let's see the truth. I ask you to kindly put up or shut up.

Hear hear, couldnt agree more.

Especially all the bold parts. Good people do not dope. Was Tommy Simpson not a good person ianfra?

Too bad you have changed your own opinion to being a fact over the years:

Sad to hear people think that Wiggins doped. I have no evidence but I do not believe for one solitary nano-second that Wiggins dopes. My opinion guys, sorry. However, I also believe that even though he rode well in last year's Tour, he did luck out. The course suited him and perhaps he wasn't quite up against what he will be this year, if that makes sense. Wiggins is a good rider, yes! But podium? In my view unlikely (though I hope I'm wrong). Methinks top 12, perhaps top 10, is the best we can hope for. As for British riders, sad to see Chris Froome out of it as I think he could do well. I also think that if Weglius wasn't content to simply ride in the service of others then he would be a natural for a top 20. Mr Armstrong? Can't stand the guy. I just hope that he gets his come uppance whatever that will be.

 

[LaFlorecita]

That's better than accusing of only sitting at home infront of a computer and masturbating all the time.

getting our tooth knock out by you

Wtf

This "hiding behind a screenname" thing is ridiculous as always. A screenname won't protect you if you say anything that someone feels like sueing you for (you know IPs are traceable, right?). Most of us use screennames because this is how the internet works and our names are largely irrelevant because no one knows most of us anyway.

Even people whose identities are actually well known tend to use screennames (JV1973, elizab, TexPat). This is the internet. You're in the internet too, so try to understand how it works maybe?

Yes it's ridiculous. There is no such thing as privacy on the internet. If you don't want people to know your name then don't register anywhere using your email address. I think mods can see email addresses so they know my name. Anyway there are plenty of posters who use their real name to sign off a PM. On velorooms my real name is my account name. I don't think anyone actually uses a screenname to avoid legal issues or just because we're cowards. Imo it's annoying and frankly a bit pathetic to use it in a discussion. You want to know my name? No problem sir.

 

[Cyivel]

All of you posters here who go on and on and on at length about Sky have not yet produced a shred of evidence to prove what you are saying is correct. Indeed all you cowards who make allegations whilst hiding behind an alias and a computer screen know that you won't get sued (or have your teeth knocked out!) for your defamations, lies and allegations. I could accept what you say if you qualified what you said as personal opinion, but you guys have such a monopoly on truth that you post opinion as fact. I think these are very nasty and unwarranted slurs against good people - worse even than those often unfounded allegations made by dirty cheap tabloid journalists. Decent human beings don't make these kind of slurs and allegations. Why don't you put up or shut up? And the sad thing I have noticed here is that you are not content with libelling Sky and their riders - you start accusing me of being paid by Sky (I wish!!!!!, I could do with the money) and making other libellous and scandulous allegations about me when you know absolutely nothing. It follows a pattern, doesn't it? You know nothing about Sky, British Cycling, Ian Boswell or Wiggo for that matter, but you post as if you are in possession of facts. Let's see those facts. Let's see the truth. I ask you to kindly put up or shut up.

You should sue the scoundrels making accusations against a fine individual such as yourself.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Not in Britain we are different sadly people are to jealous of us to give credit

That's very true. I do remember the controversy when known dope test evader Christine Ohu... oh wait.

Well, I do remember them being all high and mighty about not letting known dopers ride for Team GB in the cycling events while the soft-on-doping Italians let convicted cheats ride in their Olympic t... oh wait.

And here we're only talking about performance enhancers too, of course. There's no way Britain would incorporate a guy into their team who would willingly "do a Piquet" to get a race restarted cos he messe... oh wait.

I am impressed at ianfra's persistence though. Perhaps this time around the difference between accusations levelled at professional cyclists (professional cycling being, of course, the raison d'être of this board) and direct personal attacks levelled at fellow posters will be more clear and we can have the discussion a bit more civilly.

 

[leon7766]

You know you post BS when leon agrees with you

That's a bit harsh