Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

so funny trying to claim that Wiggins track wins was done clean and so he did not need Leinders at Sky because he showed on track that he had talent.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS, Michele Ferrari was a family friend of Lance Armstrong and only gave him some coaching plans.

 

[samhocking]

I thought I'd already pointed out that Team Sky has different staff to BC.

Where did I say that the staff and riders had no experience of doping?

Any lastly, it didn't take them 6 months.

Have a read back through the various Sky threads and you'll be able to join the dots without making all these assumptions.

They don't have different key staff apart from Kerrison. Brailsford, Ellingworth, Peters & Sutton are the key staff and head Team GB & Team Sky. Only Kerrison is new in 2010 onwards.

By 6 months i'm talking about Leinders starting with Sky in October 2010 and Wiggins winning the Critérium du Dauphiné in June 2011 which was his/Sky's biggest win on road since inception and Leinders starting. Clearly it's actually 8 months, but hey, it changes little?

I don't join dots because the the lines are what matters.

 

[bobbins]

They don't have different key staff apart from Kerrison. Brailsford, Ellingworth, Peters & Sutton are the key staff and head Team GB & Team Sky. Only Kerrison is new in 2010 onwards.

By 6 months i'm talking about Leinders starting with Sky in October 2010 and Wiggins winning the Critérium du Dauphiné in June which was there biggest win since inception and Leinders starting. Clearly it's actually 8 months, but hey, it changes little?

I don't join dots because the the lines are where the evidence and logic is.

Team GB only exists at the Olympics, I think you mean BC.

Peters left last year. You haven't listed any of the carers, DS, doctors. So the only staff they shared at the time were Brailsford, Sutton, Ellingworth, Peters, Freeman, Burt. Dan Hunt left BC and joined Sky after 2012

Join these dots in no real order;

Wiggins at Garmin
Wiggins first year at Sky
BSkyB telling Dave B that the team needs to deliver wins
Dave B telling Wiggins to be more professional
Leinders being taken on
Wiggins second year at Sky
Froome suddenly being good
Wiggins third year at Sky

 

[simo1733]

If something written in a book claiming he took EPO means more than the daily time-limit chasing Tour rider he was day after day at Tour de France it's an odd claim to make. I mean was he such a bad rider that he could only just scrape the time limits even on epo alongside the sprinters and doms one day and then smash a fastest TT the next. EPO is not a button you switch on and off for success, it's much longer term than that before you notice effects. Maybe Boardman was clever and rode the mountain stages on his own chasing the time limit just so nobody would be suspicious when he smashed everyone in the TT the following day lol!

Boardman's struggles in stage races were due to low testisterone levels,He could have easily doped his way to better results at the tour.

 

[samhocking]

Team GB/BC on the track it's the same thing, same track, same riders, same staff, same success - what's your point nitpicking it doesn't change anything?

Steve Peters is stillTeam Sky's Psychiatrist but is now a consultant to the senior management team and to staff and riders.

So you're saying Brailsford, Ellingworth, Sutton, Peters & Ellingworth mean little to my argument despite the only consisten common variable between Event A & Event B?

Their doctors and even carers are not the common variable to the success. If you belive Team GB/ BC dope on the track or not it doesn't explain why changing these variables still equal success in Event A & B which is my argument.

 

[bobbins]

Team GB/BC on the track it's the same thing, same track, same riders, same staff, same success - what's your point nitpicking it doesn't change anything?

Steve Peters is stillTeam Sky's Psychiatrist but is now a consultant to the senior management team and to staff and riders.

So you're saying Brailsford, Ellingworth, Sutton, Peters & Ellingworth mean little to my argument despite the only consisten common variable between Event A & Event B?

Their doctors and even carers are not the common variable to the success. If you belive Team GB/ BC dope on the track or not it doesn't explain why changing these variables still equal success in Event A & B which is my argument.

Sorry mate, you've lost me.

I've been told that Team Sky is dirty, and been told details of this by someone involved. The same person has told me that BC track is clean.

I'm not saying anything about your argument because I don't really see what your banging on about, variable A this and variable C that, event C this and event D that. This isn't a maths exam and life isn't as simple as you seem to be trying to make it out to be.

 

[samhocking]

Variable n = Doping Dr/Staff whoever you think is the reason for success
Event A - 10 years Track Success
Event B - 2 Years Road Success.

Same rider, same key staff same success despite variable n existing or not.

The nearest anyone has got to answering is that Track cycling simply doesn't count and variable n isn't required. I argue it is and BC are doping on the track or not doping on both. It can't be a mixture of both when Brailsford & Wiggins exist as the success in both concurrently at the same time often in the same year. (Olympics, Worlds & Tour)

 

[ebandit]

?

Your 'argument' falls down when we see that Boardman was named as doping with EPO in a book...and secondly, and more importantly, anyone who thinks the talent pool for track cycling is even remotely similar to road cycling, is on another planet...as evidenced by guys like Wiggins riding Grupetto.

with the help of others and engaging my brain...............did gaumont not

state that boardman was the only one NOT doping on the team?

Mark L

 

[Netserk]

They also got a hell of a lot of money when Coucke and Balaka joined forces

Can you explain to me how the team getting more money in itself made the same riders (Boonen, Chavanel & Terpstra) go faster?

An experienced doping doctor joining the team on the other hand is much more plausible to be the cause.

 

[Parker]

Can you explain to me how the team getting more money in itself made the same riders (Boonen, Chavanel & Terpstra) go faster?

They haven't got faster. Terpstra steadily matured into a good classics rider as you would expect. The other two have been pretty consistent their whole careers. They didn't suddenly appear in 2012.

 

[blackcat]

So your argument blackcat is Team GB won and continue to win for a decade on the track because every other nation is simply weak and without investment, but when the same key players achieve it on the road it's because they are doping. Great logic there pal!

no, I am saying, the best riders from other nations migrated to the road, where they could earn a professional salary from a continental (on the continent, not a division 2 team) team.

I think everyone dopes on the road, and on the track.

my point is, the GB team, rode against a second class track pool, because the first class were on the road.

Hayden Roulston and Greg Henderson were solid roadies, and solid trackies. But I would not consider these guys worthy of track endurance medals, if everyone who has the ability, is given the same access. In about 2009, Tasmania, a small state, but prodigious cycling output, had a team pursuit in the national titles, Matt Goss was one of the four, and they rode either a 3'59 or a 3'58. Think this time would have rivalled Germany in 2000 Olympics.

If Germany could put out a 4 man TP with Greipel, Ciolek, Martin, Gretsch, Kittel, with 4 of those 5, they would beat the best team a combined Australia and Great Britain could put on the park, even with Wiggins, G, Clancy, and one other guy like Bobridge. Or even throw Phinney in.

Australia hit cycling on the track at a sweetspot, and benefited from the shift of talent off the track and away to the road. And Australia never quite managed the dominance in the sprint discipline that GB have achieved.respect for that. So my thesis is basically centred on track endurance, and has not "explained away" the track sprint success. devils advocate there for you.

I think Hoy and the sprint cadre, benefited from resources and time and tutelage put in their equipe, and a cluster of esprit de corps built and success came. ofcourse they doped, just like all their competitors. it would take a fool to believe they managed to do it different when the advantages are so substantial. It would be like an Icelander in 2004 thinking they had some genetic predisposition to Kaupthing and banking. No, they never had talent in banking, they had talent in deluding themselves they had talent in banking. But GB did have talent in the sprint cadre and corps when they were underwritten and resourced.

Bring all the best riders back on the track, put Phinney and Bobridge and Mcgee and Wiggins and G and Clancy and Kittel at 100% build with half a dozen years track souplesse in their legs, and you sweep the medals? you wont. I dont know who would win. Looking at all those names, I reckon it would be a crapshoot, and you could throw a blanket over them. Heck, lets add Hincapie, and Millar, and Cancellara. I dont know if anyone bar Phinney could possibly take down sparticus if he had the requisite skill on the track. But I may be incorrect.

Would also like to see Theo Bos in a team pursuit squad. Just like I reckon the way the TP is going, that Hoy would be good to lead off and do 2km and let G, Wiggo, and Clancy bring it home. If anyone can get a team to 3'50" you would need to be burning tyres early, and if Hoy takes double pulls for the first 2kms, there are not many Teampursuiters in the world who could bring home a threesome or foursome in 3'50".

 

[blackcat]

To succeed on the track, all they needed to do was invest money and be sensible with it as far as getting the best coaches etc went.

On the road, there's more to it than that, as their first year demonstrated.

There is a lot more scrutiny on the track team and it would be much harder to hide or lose a positive.

but it is about the depth on the track was lost, because the best track endurance riders knicked off to the road on the continent in Europe.

So it was two-fold. If I am focusing on track endurance, one, less talent on track, as they went onto the road like Ekimov.

Two, the GB endurance trackies, could harness their skill and the national GB program might pay Haynes and Manning to ride for Tonnisteiner Colnago in Belgium, or some of Hayles wage on Cofidis. They helped them out for a ride by paying some of their way (I could be incorrect, please correct if this is incorrect), and bring them back for the track development and Worlds. So Manning Haynes Hayles, were all solid trackies. Accomplished, medalists. But if the ground was perfectly level, and all the potential trackies could compete on even playing field, then those guys would have been merely also-ran(s). If they could get Millar on the track, I reckon he would have been a better pursuiter than Wiggins. You cant compete on the road, and win a prologue of the Tour, without being a potential gold medal olympic pursuiter. The prologue is a step above the pursuit in class. And Millar should have two prologue wins. Well, one was a 20km one at Eurodisney or whatever in 2000, then he hit his cleat and lost his foot when he was romping it in during the 2004 or so prologue. when Mcgee won.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Heck, lets add Hincapie, and Millar, and Cancellara. I dont know if anyone bar Phinney could possibly take down sparticus if he had the requisite skill on the track. But I may be incorrect.

Would also like to see Theo Bos in a team pursuit squad. Just like I reckon the way the TP is going, that Hoy would be good to lead off and do 2km and let G, Wiggo, and Clancy bring it home. If anyone can get a team to 3'50" you would need to be burning tyres early, and if Hoy takes double pulls for the first 2kms, there are not many Teampursuiters in the world who could bring home a threesome or foursome in 3'50".

Re Millar, he was considered for the TP squad in the run-up to Athens as GB sought to find a quartet to beat the Aussies. I don't think he was ever in the frame seriously though. I guess he wasn't sufficiently good that he could fulfil his road commitments and just drop back in.

Cav was definitely in the frame for a TP squad place in 2008, but didn't make the cut and Ben Swift regularly rode in the world cup meetings, but got chopped fairly late in the selection process for 2012.

Re Bos, the TP looks like it's heading that way, though the experiences of Millar, Cav and Swift suggest that there's more to making it at the top end of the TP than simply being a top level roadie with a decent turn of pace.

IIRC, in the 2012 OG, Clancy and Burke drove a 62s first kilo, with the next 3k done in 2:49 (64kmh). Both Clancy and Burke are sub 62 kilo riders at their best, and Thomas is/was no slough either. Jason Queally was in serious contention for a TP squad place off a sprint/kilo background (I think he was in the quartet that won the Euro champs in 2011) but was a bit long in the tooth to see off the youngsters for the really serious stuff.

As an aside, Chris Hoy's first ride for GB in a track world cup meeting was in the TP though I think that was a case of him being available when the squad was a man down in early 2000s when Team GB was not such a well oiled machine.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The prologue is a step above the pursuit in class.

Another (hopefully interesting) aside re Boardman as a Tour prologue and IP winner...

Boardman set the old IP world record at the track world champs in 1996. The IP preceded the TP, and until the TP qualifying round took place, his IP record was actually faster than the GB TP record.

 

[the sceptic]

for once, Walsh was right.

 

[blackcat]

Re Millar, he was considered for the TP squad in the run-up to Athens as GB sought to find a quartet to beat the Aussies. I don't think he was ever in the frame seriously though. I guess he wasn't sufficiently good that he could fulfil his road commitments and just drop back in.

Cav was definitely in the frame for a TP squad place in 2008, but didn't make the cut and Ben Swift regularly rode in the world cup meetings, but got chopped fairly late in the selection process for 2012.

Re Bos, the TP looks like it's heading that way, though the experiences of Millar, Cav and Swift suggest that there's more to making it at the top end of the TP than simply being a top level roadie with a decent turn of pace.

IIRC, in the 2012 OG, Clancy and Burke drove a 62s first kilo, with the next 3k done in 2:49 (64kmh). Both Clancy and Burke are sub 62 kilo riders at their best, and Thomas is/was no slough either. Jason Queally was in serious contention for a TP squad place off a sprint/kilo background (I think he was in the quartet that won the Euro champs in 2011) but was a bit long in the tooth to see off the youngsters for the really serious stuff.

As an aside, Chris Hoy's first ride for GB in a track world cup meeting was in the TP though I think that was a case of him being available when the squad was a man down in early 2000s when Team GB was not such a well oiled machine.

re: Millar. I had the premise that he (would have) had 6 years track souplesse in his legs in this hypothetical. and everyone on this board knows how much i hate millar

 

[blackcat]

Another (hopefully interesting) aside re Boardman as a Tour prologue and IP winner...

Boardman set the old IP world record at the track world champs in 1996. The IP preceded the TP, and until the TP qualifying round took place, his IP record was actually faster than the GB TP record.

i think ogrady was the IP world champ in 95 the year before Atlanta? Or was that Boardman or Obree? And Ogrady got a bronze in Atlanta?

 

[blackcat]

Two, the GB endurance trackies, could harness their skill and the national GB program might pay Haynes and Manning to ride for Tonnisteiner Colnago

is this the team that is the antecedent of the topsport Vlaanderen team? The one that had Nico Rambo Eeckhout on it?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

i think ogrady was the IP world champ in 95 the year before Atlanta? Or was that Boardman or Obree? And Ogrady got a bronze in Atlanta?

Obree won the 1995 IP from Collinelli and O'Grady,


Collinelli won in Atlanta, from Ermenault and McGee with Obree "not at the races" in qualifying.

 

[blackcat]

IIRC, in the 2012 OG, Clancy and Burke drove a 62s first kilo, with the next 3k done in 2:49 (64kmh). Both Clancy and Burke are sub 62 kilo riders at their best, and Thomas is/was no slough either. Jason Queally was in serious contention for a TP squad place off a sprint/kilo background (I think he was in the quartet that won the Euro champs in 2011) but was a bit long in the tooth to see off the youngsters for the really serious stuff.

As an aside, Chris Hoy's first ride for GB in a track world cup meeting was in the TP though I think that was a case of him being available when the squad was a man down in early 2000s when Team GB was not such a well oiled machine.

re: Clancy and Burke, my strategy was about burning up a guy, in this case, Hoy, who did double pulls, the start, and then double pulls and dropped off after about 2km. Because if each rider does a lap, 250 pull, then loops up and away, each person going back, you lose about 3 metres on the train. More changes, more losses of that increment. Just like Michael Lewis the Brown art history grad and soloman bros banker then journalist for The Economist, when he wrote about the Oakland A's in Moneyball about their front office of Harvard mba's doing the metrics and kpi's and science of baseball, I am sure Brailsford has had his people work out the computations and strategy, but I was intimating, Hoy to burn his candles with the start, and to only ride 1.8-2.5km, but pull double laps, so keep a Wiggins and Clancy and G fresh enough to come home in 350. And I use the term "fresh enough" firmly tongue in cheek as they would have eyes rolling in back of head and quads heart and lungs afire. To have 3 riders, that can do 350, because you only need 3 to finish, is still a massive ask, but less of an ask if they get some "respite" in the first two km, not having to touch nose in the wind (as much). one could argue, they need to put nose in wind 33% more in the final two km, but you cant pull a laggard to do a 350 can you. There are only a handful of riders in the world that can pull that time.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

re: Clancy and Burke, my strategy was about burning up a guy, in this case, Hoy, who did double pulls, the start, and then double pulls and dropped off after about 2km. Because if each rider does a lap, 250 pull, then loops up and away, each person going back, you lose about 3 metres on the train. More changes, more losses of that increment. Just like Michael Lewis the Brown art history grad and soloman bros banker then journalist for The Economist, when he wrote about the Oakland A's in Moneyball about their front office of Harvard mba's doing the metrics and kpi's and science of baseball, I am sure Brailsford has had his people work out the computations and strategy, but I was intimating, Hoy to burn his candles with the start, and to only ride 1.8-2.5km, but pull double laps, so keep a Wiggins and Clancy and G fresh enough to come home in 350. And I use the term "fresh enough" firmly tongue in cheek as they would have eyes rolling in back of head and quads heart and lungs afire. To have 3 riders, that can do 350, because you only need 3 to finish, is still a massive ask, but less of an ask if they get some "respite" in the first two km, not having to touch nose in the wind (as much). one could argue, they need to put nose in wind 33% more in the final two km, but you cant pull a laggard to do a 350 can you. There are only a handful of riders in the world that can pull that time.

It will certainly be interesting to see how the event evolves. The "sprinter start" tactic may emerge as an attempt to force the opposition to blow up trying to keep pace or leave themselves too much to do to catch up after misjudging a steadier start. I have my doubts that anyone will be able to take on the majority of work in the first 1.5k, simply because the average lap time once up and running for a low 3:50s is 14s, and there's very few kilo riders can manage that once up and running. (An 18s first lap in a kilo plus 3 * 14s laps would be a minute dead, which is faster than anyone's managed at sea level.)

The relatively even load-sharing does intuitively seem the energy efficient way to go. I'm sure squads will be trying something different in training just to see, though. Nothing ventured; nothing gained. Otherwise, either the Brits or the Aussies will steamroller everyone trying "business as usual" in Rio.

 

[ray j willings]

Cav in 2011 I meant by double wins. Typing on mobile, I get lazy! It doesn't change my argument, so if nitpicking is all you got...

So Sky will not win now Leinders is banned?

There is nothing nit picking about you claiming 2 world champions when infact you were wrong FACT.
Cav success and Nichole Cookes has Fu%% all to do with Sky.

Infact since he joined Sky Cav his not the rider he used to be. Braisford totally Fu%5ed him up in order to win the Olympics. He has never been the same since. Joining Sky was the worse thing Cav ever did and results prove that out.
If It was not for Leinder's helping hand Sky would have won Jack Sh%%
Before Leinders was aboard the Sky train Froome won nothing of any significance and never even made a dent as a GT rider and Wiggo could not win a ITT of any significance in over ten years,,,,LEINDERS MEANS RESULTS.

 

[The Chicken]

LMFAO at Floyd's comments

 

[Benotti69]

..............So Sky will not win now Leinders is banned?

Ferrari being banned never stopped him from working.......

 

[TailWindHome]

The Landis interview. Did anyone else read it before it was edited at 18.12GMT?

The Froome TUE was described as backdated rather than fast tracked - or am I imagining it?