Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Nico Roche admits to taking tramadol to enhance a TT performance. This is ok?

Please see the bolded section.

Are performance-enhancing products OK in your opinion?

put like that the answer is obvious.
of course it's ok.
i eat dextro energy when i play soccer.
it enhances my performance.
etc.

I'm afraid that in the end, discussions on tramadol will only suit Sky's (and Sky fans') agenda in that it draws attention away from more urgent issues.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Nico Roche admits to taking tramadol to enhance a TT performance. This is ok?

Please see the bolded section.

Are performance-enhancing products OK in your opinion?

put like that the answer is obvious.
of course it's ok.
i eat dextro energy when i play soccer.
it enhances my performance.
etc.

I'm afraid that in the end, discussions on tramadol will only suit Sky's (and Sky fans') agenda in that it draws attention away from more urgent issues.

Bingo. Very well put.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Nothing to do with ethics it is to do with mentality and culture of riders and UCI. Riders and teams are always looking for performance enhancement and will take anything and everything they think can help and cannot be detected. Roche admitted to Tramadol andL-Carnitine, but what else is he taking? Why stop at those 2?

He will, like almost everyone else, be taking whatever he can that will give him an edge within the rules (and maybe beyond, who knows).

Why stop at those two? Because they are not banned? The implication that he'll happily take anything, banned or not, just because he has taken tramadol, is akin to saying that I'm likely to use steroids just because I took a couple of ibuprofen a day after a really long ride.

Whether he should or not is an ethical and moral discussion.

You dont sign for Riis or Brailsford if you are only riding on bread, water, a tramadol or 2 and L-Carnitine in the winter

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

That's exactly what I wanted a clarification of. Tramadol is not a banned substance. Any rider can use it as long as they get it from a doctor. No rule has been broken so I fail to see how this can look "bad". Please explain why not breaking the rules is a bad thing.

If you can't see why a rider using Tramadol only to enhance performance while Tramadol abuse is a known issue in the peloton then I'm afraid I can't help you...

No and it seems like you can't help yourself. I know the prevailing knowledge in the clinic is Sky are full of dopers, cheat with the backing of national and international federations and some probably even think they have access to amazing, unknown doping products others don't. But if you're going to start moaning about riders doing something that IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES, I'm afraid I'm going to point out how ridiculous that is.

Riders use a vast array of products to enhance performance, some of which are banned and some of which aren't. Complaining about the legal ones is pretty silly. I supposed if someone pops a couple of paracetamol and ibuprofen you'll jump about and say how that looks really bad as well?

Ever heard of the "letter of the law" vs "the spirt of the law"?
Or fair play?

Do you think the rider gains an advantage over non-Tramadol using athletes?
Do you think this would lead to other riders taking up the usage?

Flo and others are expressing opinions as to the "badness" of the practice. To call that opinion ridiculous is wtfery, plain and simple.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Nothing to do with ethics it is to do with mentality and culture of riders and UCI. Riders and teams are always looking for performance enhancement and will take anything and everything they think can help and cannot be detected. Roche admitted to Tramadol andL-Carnitine, but what else is he taking? Why stop at those 2?

He will, like almost everyone else, be taking whatever he can that will give him an edge within the rules (and maybe beyond, who knows).

Why stop at those two? Because they are not banned? The implication that he'll happily take anything, banned or not, just because he has taken tramadol, is akin to saying that I'm likely to use steroids just because I took a couple of ibuprofen a day after a really long ride.

Whether he should or not is an ethical and moral discussion.

You dont sign for Riis or Brailsford if you are only riding on bread, water, a tramadol or 2 and L-Carnitine in the winter

That is of course your opinion, but not a discussion I'll get involved in. Even if I tend to agree.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Nico Roche admits to taking tramadol to enhance a TT performance. This is ok?

Please see the bolded section.

Are performance-enhancing products OK in your opinion?

put like that the answer is obvious.
of course it's ok.
i eat dextro energy when i play soccer.
it enhances my performance.
etc.

I'm afraid that in the end, discussions on tramadol will only suit Sky's (and Sky fans') agenda in that it draws attention away from more urgent issues.

No. Dextro is food.
Tramadol is a manufactured drug.

Good.
Grief.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Tramadol usage is akin to the stuff truckies take to stay awake. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

When the over the counter medication isn't working to relieve pain, it might be time to talk to your doctor about a prescription of Tramadol.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Ever heard of the "letter of the law" vs "the spirt of the law"?
Or fair play?

Do you think the rider gains an advantage over non-Tramadol using athletes?
Do you think this would lead to other riders taking up the usage?

Flo and others are expressing opinions as to the "badness" of the practice. To call that opinion ridiculous is wtfery, plain and simple.

Fair play? In professional sport? Good luck with that...

Do they gain an advantage? Of course they do (as long as their competitors aren't on something else that gives them different or the same gains and this will turn into an endless loop as there are plenty of things that are not banned that different riders might be taking) but that advantage is not agains the rules. Just like riders with better training facilities, better team support etc. have an advantage over their competitors.

Tramadol has been around for a very long time, I'd guess that every rider in the pro peloton is aware of it (unless they live under a rock) and any rider who wants it already gets it. So no, I don't think a single rider admitting to using it once will increase usage.

You can have a moral opinion, but to say it looks very bad is ridiculous. It looks no worse than it did beforehand, it is completely within the rules and does not imply using anything else.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Nico Roche admits to taking tramadol to enhance a TT performance. This is ok?

Please see the bolded section.

Are performance-enhancing products OK in your opinion?

put like that the answer is obvious.
of course it's ok.
i eat dextro energy when i play soccer.
it enhances my performance.
etc.

I'm afraid that in the end, discussions on tramadol will only suit Sky's (and Sky fans') agenda in that it draws attention away from more urgent issues.

No. Dextro is food.
Tramadol is a manufactured drug.

Good.
Grief.

read my post. i said "put like that".
you're touchy these days. Good grief indeed.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's your opinion and only your opinion that it is ridiculous to say it looks bad.

There was a picture of Michael Matthes popping pills in a race, and a descirption of hi sbehaviour when he became aware of the camera moto beside him - it looked bad.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

No. Dextro is food.
Tramadol is a manufactured drug.

Good.
Grief.

Bingo bingo.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

read my post. i said "put like that".
you're touchy these days. Good grief indeed.

If you think she meant food, and not drugs like tramadol, you are forgiven for being ESL.

TOuchy when people think something looks bad and spurious examples like yours are provided to counter their argument? Yes I am.
Or when people are called ridiculous for having moral fibre? Yes, I am.

Evil persists, etc.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

It's your opinion and only your opinion that it is ridiculous to say it looks bad.

There was a picture of Michael Matthes popping pills in a race, and a descirption of hi sbehaviour when he became aware of the camera moto beside him - it looked bad.

It certainly is and I'm entitled to it and I'm willing to back it up. Whether you agree or not is up to you.


Without any other information I'd say that would look no worse than me taking a couple of paracetamol in the middle of a particularly hard audax.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

It's your opinion and only your opinion that it is ridiculous to say it looks bad.

There was a picture of Michael Matthes popping pills in a race, and a descirption of hi sbehaviour when he became aware of the camera moto beside him - it looked bad.

It certainly is am I'm entitled to it and I'm willing to back it up. Whether you agree or not is up to you.


Without any other information I'd say that would look no worse than me taking a couple of paracetamol in the middle of a particularly hard audax.

And so it is revealed why you have no problem with cyclists taking pain killers.
All good.

Why don't you take Tramadol instead? That's the equivalent. Not paracetamol.

Just saying.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

It's your opinion and only your opinion that it is ridiculous to say it looks bad.

There was a picture of Michael Matthes popping pills in a race, and a descirption of hi sbehaviour when he became aware of the camera moto beside him - it looked bad.

It certainly is am I'm entitled to it and I'm willing to back it up. Whether you agree or not is up to you.


Without any other information I'd say that would look no worse than me taking a couple of paracetamol in the middle of a particularly hard audax.

And so it is revealed why you have no problem with cyclists taking pain killers.
All good.

Why don't you take Tramadol instead? That's the equivalent. Not paracetamol.

Just saying.

I didn't say I have no problem with it. I've made no moral judgement as I think it's pointless to attempt to apply your own morals to everyone else, particularly professional athletes. That is part of why anti-doping rules exist, so morals don't have to come into it.

I don't take tramadol as I don't want to. I also don't take paracetamol, even for recovery, it was just an example.

 

[MatParker117]

"None of our riders should ride whilst using Tramadol –that's the policy of this team. Team Sky do not give it to riders whilst racing or training, either as a pre-emptive measure or to manage existing pain.

"We believe that its side-effects, such as dizziness and drowsiness, could cause issues for the safety of all riders. We also feel that if a rider has the level of severe pain for its appropriate use, they should not be riding.

"Tramadol is not prohibited by Wada, but this has been our firm position for the last two seasons and all medical staff and riders are aware of this. Our view is that it should be on the Wada list and any appropriate clinical use could be managed through the regulated TUE."

 

[luckyboy]

Where is this photo of Michael Matthews you talk about? I've never heard of it before

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It was posted around on Twitter. Looked hard for it but fck me twitter is shtter.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I have to agree with those defending Sky on the matter of using anything that is not banned. Professional cycling is a horrifically difficult sport physiologically, and using any means not deemed illegal by the governing body causes me little pause. In fact, you'd be a fool to not go to the limit of the rules, because if you don't, someone will.

Maybe that is what Sky have done? That is their claim, and as of yet, there has been no uncovering of any kind of systematic program of doping, nor any significant positives. Now, I fully recognize that the same could be said of USPS for years, and that well may be the case here. Add to that the fact that their performances appear dodgy when compared to known doped performances. What isn't here, yet, is any actual evidence of guilt as it relates to the usage of banned performance products.

If what Sky has done is spend massive amounts of money to go to the precipice of the rules, then at least they aren't paying to exceed them. Is it ethical to do that? Depends on your view, but mine is that anything within the rules is fair game. Time may well tell us whether Sky have exceeded the rules, and my belief is that they likely have. What I can't do is condemn them for anything they did that didn't exceed the rules.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Whereas I am more of an advocate of, "integrity has no need of rules".

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re:

Whereas I am more of an advocate of, "integrity has no need of rules".

And I can respect that position, but I ask, what are the rules on that? Because there seems to be a lot of subjectivity, even if there are certain constraints everyone would agree upon.

Morality and ethics are anything but objective tests.

 

[Archibald]

so what are folks thoughts on the foolballers having pain killing injections for their knees before every game?
I've never heard anyone complain about this, but because someone pops a legal pain killer pill, it's a nasty

If WADA bans it, then it's off limits, but while it's not banned folks will take it - and they can whether folks judge it morally okay or not...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I didn't say I have no problem with it. I've made no moral judgement as I think it's pointless to attempt to apply your own morals to everyone else, particularly professional athletes. That is part of why anti-doping rules exist, so morals don't have to come into it.

plus Juan.
have to agree with this.

What I can't do is condemn them for anything they did that didn't exceed the rules.

agree wrt tramadol.
Different would be if rules were deliberately bent/stretched, of course. In the case of Froome's TUE, for instance, imo the term "cheating" and/or "PED-abuse" is warranted (or 'institutionalized cheating'). If the rules had been followed, he should not have gotten that TUE.

 

[old.edu]

Re:

It was posted around on Twitter. Looked hard for it but fck me twitter is shtter.

Go back to march 13th on https://twitter.com/velocast