Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

Re: desperation

Nicely played, sir...

Lucky Jimmy is in there defending Nibali and Contador too. I don't know how these poor pro cyclists would cope without his unwavering support.

My posts neither defend or accuse these days, not that you'd know it given the rabid reactions to them. I generally just point out others excesses and hypocrisy. I'm incredibly bored of the circular arguments that go on and on and on in here. At the end of the day people come into the Clinic to vent over results they don't like for the most part. I just like to *** the pompous bubble occasionally.

 

[BYOP88]

Re:

I dunno, not many are attacking Nibali or Contador for doping, are they?

Because 99.999% of the posters here don't believe that Nibali or Contador are clean for one second. If you look at Nibali/DirtyBertie/Piti/Movistar etc threads you'll see that everyone is like 'doper(s)' and the thread ends after a few pages. Sky threads are like the LA/Postal threads of old.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Disagree, who in here is saying that SKY doesn't dope?

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

I dunno, not many are attacking Nibali or Contador for doping, are they?

Because 99.999% of the posters here don't believe that Nibali or Contador are clean for one second. If you look at Nibali/DirtyBertie/Piti/Movistar etc threads you'll see that everyone is like 'doper(s)' and the thread ends after a few pages. Sky threads are like the LA/Postal threads of old.

naaaa, it´s not about a few people telling they are clean
it´s not about that

it something else, I´m still trying to discover

it´s like anything ANYTHING Sky say or do it is baited repeated trolled joked criticized repeatet again, reposted etc etc
even the believers that sometimes post on here have seen the Henderson push or the TT commissaire crash pictures 3754 times.
and the frequent posters have seen them 765342853 times

so you mean 3 millions view on this thread is because a few members try do defend them?

I think there is a big problem with SKY.
just compare the number of posts on other threads about Nicki Sorensen doping, with the times De Jongh-Julich-Knaven names have been mentioned on here and other Sky related threads

Nicki doped as the other 3 did. but he did not ride nor worked with Sky. so after a few days we´ve forgotten.

anyway. that´s my view on that, I am one of the few Sky fans who have no problem to say they are on the juice as the other teams.
but somehow, when they win something, someone will tell me some other rider/doper deserve that win better.
but I don´t care, I think about Het Nieuwsblaad 2015 and smile.

 

[BYOP88]

Re: Re:

I dunno, not many are attacking Nibali or Contador for doping, are they?

Because 99.999% of the posters here don't believe that Nibali or Contador are clean for one second. If you look at Nibali/DirtyBertie/Piti/Movistar etc threads you'll see that everyone is like 'doper(s)' and the thread ends after a few pages. Sky threads are like the LA/Postal threads of old.

naaaa, it´s not about a few people telling they are clean
it´s not about that

it something else, I´m still trying to discover

it´s like anything ANYTHING Sky say or do it is baited repeated trolled joked criticized repeatet again, reposted etc etc
even the believers that sometimes post on here have seen the Henderson push or the TT commissaire crash pictures 3754 times.
and the frequent posters have seen them 765342853 times

so you mean 3 millions view on this thread is because a few members try do defend them?

I think there is a big problem with SKY.
just compare the number of posts on other threads about Nicki Sorensen doping, with the times De Jongh-Julich-Knaven names have been mentioned on here and other Sky related threads

Nicki doped as the other 3 did. but he did not ride nor worked with Sky. so after a few days we´ve forgotten.

anyway. that´s my view on that, I am one of the few Sky fans who have no problem to say they are on the juice as the other teams.
but somehow, when they win something, someone will tell me some other rider/doper deserve that win better.
but I don´t care, I think about Het Nieuwsblaad 2015 and smile.

Well to be fair to the other teams aside from Garmin. Teams don't release PR statements about being clean finding marginal gains, having their team manager(or whatever title Brailsford has) say utter junk like 'one day clean riders will get times that will beat the times of dopers...', 'we wash our hands', 'each rider has their own pillow'(RoboBasso used his own in 2010) etc etc. If other team managers said stuff like that, then I'm sure their team would also be mocked.

EDIT: Also when Brailsford said in 2012 that in the off season he would have an open event, where anyone could attend and ask any question(s) they wanted too. What happened to that event? EDIT.

Oh and I think this is important(well for me it is), teams don't have guys that start off in the autobus then go to winning every race they enter for 6 months at a time. Can you tell me the last GT winner who spent their first few GT's in the autobus then..... BAM winning.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

I dunno, not many are attacking Nibali or Contador for doping, are they?

Because 99.999% of the posters here don't believe that Nibali or Contador are clean for one second. If you look at Nibali/DirtyBertie/Piti/Movistar etc threads you'll see that everyone is like 'doper(s)' and the thread ends after a few pages. Sky threads are like the LA/Postal threads of old.

naaaa, it´s not about a few people telling they are clean
it´s not about that

it something else, I´m still trying to discover

it´s like anything ANYTHING Sky say or do it is baited repeated trolled joked criticized repeatet again, reposted etc etc
even the believers that sometimes post on here have seen the Henderson push or the TT commissaire crash pictures 3754 times.
and the frequent posters have seen them 765342853 times

so you mean 3 millions view on this thread is because a few members try do defend them?

I think there is a big problem with SKY.
just compare the number of posts on other threads about Nicki Sorensen doping, with the times De Jongh-Julich-Knaven names have been mentioned on here and other Sky related threads

Nicki doped as the other 3 did. but he did not ride nor worked with Sky. so after a few days we´ve forgotten.

anyway. that´s my view on that, I am one of the few Sky fans who have no problem to say they are on the juice as the other teams.
but somehow, when they win something, someone will tell me some other rider/doper deserve that win better.
but I don´t care, I think about Het Nieuwsblaad 2015 and smile.

Writing from mobile as i am on vacation so pkease excuse me if poor typo...

If you are still considering why sky get a lot of heat here compared to others then allow me to offer my view...

Sky saw that there was an opportunity in catching the new clean era "train" and they got all in with a clever thought out expansion of the vaughters doctrin which in fact (at least for starters) had the valid point that doping evolution was challenged and due to ABP and othrr factors haf to find other ways resulting perhaps in a (on surface at least) different expression... so what Sky did was was transforming the new clean era niche into marketable mainstream mass products of performances even surprising the good knight dave brailsford... that was taking things a bit too far because when questioned by valid points all they had to offer wad marginal gains so old that plenty of followers had even forgotten they existed... and every other team was quiet because sky made provided advantages for all by this rhetoric that was marginally bigger then what calling BS on the gains would have done.. so in short: people here are tired of being sold incredible stories.. Sky excelled and still do in forming increfible arguments of their clean nature and that perhaps is what ignites the forum flame by seasoned cycling followers...

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

I dunno, not many are attacking Nibali or Contador for doping, are they?

Because 99.999% of the posters here don't believe that Nibali or Contador are clean for one second. If you look at Nibali/DirtyBertie/Piti/Movistar etc threads you'll see that everyone is like 'doper(s)' and the thread ends after a few pages. Sky threads are like the LA/Postal threads of old.

naaaa, it´s not about a few people telling they are clean
it´s not about that

it something else, I´m still trying to discover

it´s like anything ANYTHING Sky say or do it is baited repeated trolled joked criticized repeatet again, reposted etc etc
even the believers that sometimes post on here have seen the Henderson push or the TT commissaire crash pictures 3754 times.
and the frequent posters have seen them 765342853 times

so you mean 3 millions view on this thread is because a few members try do defend them?

I think there is a big problem with SKY.
just compare the number of posts on other threads about Nicki Sorensen doping, with the times De Jongh-Julich-Knaven names have been mentioned on here and other Sky related threads

Nicki doped as the other 3 did. but he did not ride nor worked with Sky. so after a few days we´ve forgotten.

anyway. that´s my view on that, I am one of the few Sky fans who have no problem to say they are on the juice as the other teams.
but somehow, when they win something, someone will tell me some other rider/doper deserve that win better.
but I don´t care, I think about Het Nieuwsblaad 2015 and smile.

Well to be fair to the other teams aside from Garmin. Teams don't release PR statements about being clean finding marginal gains, having their team manager(or whatever title Brailsford has) say utter junk like 'one day clean riders will get times that will beat the times of dopers...', 'we wash our hands', 'each rider has their own pillow'(RoboBasso used his own in 2010) etc etc. If other team managers said stuff like that, then I'm sure their team would also be mocked.

EDIT: Also when Brailsford said in 2012 that in the off season he would have an open event, where anyone could attend and ask any question(s) they wanted too. What happened to that event? EDIT.

Oh and I think this is important(well for me it is), teams don't have guys that start off in the autobus then go to winning every race they enter for 6 months at a time. Can you tell me the last GT winner who spent their first few GT's in the autobus then..... BAM winning.

ok
so the problem is not IF riders dope
but HOW they do it and when they BEGIN to do so?
Contador last year won plenty of races before crashing at the tour and winning the vuelta
is he more allowed to dope than Froome?

about the PR and marginal gains: maybe it´s my way of behaving, but I don´t get angry at that. I don´t read that. I never cared about washing hands or clean times better than doped times. it clear as water that´s spinning the narrative for the dear fans, why bother with that?
I follow the races instead of reading press releases made for UK fan that could possibly make me angry.

about Nicki Sorensen, the CN forum is lucky he did not work for Sky. because otherwise the servers would be having problems. where´s everybody now? hey! wake up

oh look what I found
Davide Appollonio suspended for EPO. June 2015

look what Digger writes about the news
*** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum 25 min25 minuti fa
So former Sky rider popped - luckily for Sky he only doped after he was on that team obviously.

it´s 3 THREE years ago, 2012, when he rode for SKY

but all that matters is he is a former Sky rider

things like that make me root for them too

 

[meat puppet]

All gc riders dope, imo. But even in cycling Wiggo and froome's transformations fly in the face of any imaginable sense. Add in badzilla, the team's inane plus condescending press strategy insisting on science and cleans, and there it is.

 

[BYOP88]

Re: Re:

I dunno, not many are attacking Nibali or Contador for doping, are they?

Because 99.999% of the posters here don't believe that Nibali or Contador are clean for one second. If you look at Nibali/DirtyBertie/Piti/Movistar etc threads you'll see that everyone is like 'doper(s)' and the thread ends after a few pages. Sky threads are like the LA/Postal threads of old.

naaaa, it´s not about a few people telling they are clean
it´s not about that

it something else, I´m still trying to discover

it´s like anything ANYTHING Sky say or do it is baited repeated trolled joked criticized repeatet again, reposted etc etc
even the believers that sometimes post on here have seen the Henderson push or the TT commissaire crash pictures 3754 times.
and the frequent posters have seen them 765342853 times

so you mean 3 millions view on this thread is because a few members try do defend them?

I think there is a big problem with SKY.
just compare the number of posts on other threads about Nicki Sorensen doping, with the times De Jongh-Julich-Knaven names have been mentioned on here and other Sky related threads

Nicki doped as the other 3 did. but he did not ride nor worked with Sky. so after a few days we´ve forgotten.

anyway. that´s my view on that, I am one of the few Sky fans who have no problem to say they are on the juice as the other teams.
but somehow, when they win something, someone will tell me some other rider/doper deserve that win better.
but I don´t care, I think about Het Nieuwsblaad 2015 and smile.

Well to be fair to the other teams aside from Garmin. Teams don't release PR statements about being clean finding marginal gains, having their team manager(or whatever title Brailsford has) say utter junk like 'one day clean riders will get times that will beat the times of dopers...', 'we wash our hands', 'each rider has their own pillow'(RoboBasso used his own in 2010) etc etc. If other team managers said stuff like that, then I'm sure their team would also be mocked.

EDIT: Also when Brailsford said in 2012 that in the off season he would have an open event, where anyone could attend and ask any question(s) they wanted too. What happened to that event? EDIT.

Oh and I think this is important(well for me it is), teams don't have guys that start off in the autobus then go to winning every race they enter for 6 months at a time. Can you tell me the last GT winner who spent their first few GT's in the autobus then..... BAM winning.

ok
so the problem is not IF riders dope
but HOW they do it and when they BEGIN to do so?
Contador last year won plenty of races before crashing at the tour and winning the vuelta
is he more allowed to dope than Froome?

about the PR and marginal gains: maybe it´s my way of behaving, but I don´t get angry at that. I don´t read that. I never cared about washing hands or clean times better than doped times. it clear as water that´s spinning the narrative for the dear fans, why bother with that?
I follow the races instead of reading press releases made for UK fan that could possibly make me angry.

about Nicki Sorensen, the CN forum is lucky he did not work for Sky. because otherwise the servers would be having problems. where´s everybody now? hey! wake up

oh look what I found
Davide Appollonio suspended for EPO. June 2015

look what Digger writes about the news
**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum 25 min25 minuti fa
So former Sky rider popped - luckily for Sky he only doped after he was on that team obviously.

it´s 3 THREE years ago, 2012, when he rode for SKY

but all that matters is he is a former Sky rider

things like that make me root for them too

I'm anti-doping full stop. I want people who get busted to be banned for life, and some prison time for them would be nice. I don't care if it's an American rider or any other nationality, they dope and are caught they should be gone forever.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Can you tell me the last GT winner who spent their first few GT's in the autobus then..... BAM winning.

Well Froome had a higher placing in his first GT than Sastre did in his first and at a younger age.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Can you tell me the last GT winner who spent their first few GT's in the autobus then..... BAM winning.

Well Froome had a higher placing in his first GT than Sastre did in his first and at a younger age.

People wonder why this thread drags on when someone writes that ^^^^^ to communicate the facts of

Froome: 23 years of age, 83rd
Sastre: 24 years of age, 101st

yeah your boy was kicking Sastre's butt, not.

Fact of the matter is: Sastre had a pretty steady progression to his win.
Froome went like a rocket to 2nd at Vuelta and then Tour - but only coz his team leader was holding him back.

 

[hrotha]

Sastre was one the hottest u23 riders in Spain in 1997, after Mancebo. Pretty much triggered an open war when he left Banesto's feeder team to turn pro with ONCE. That was pretty huge at the time.

Then again, virtually anything could trigger an open war between ONCE and Banesto back then.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Also, you're really going to fire at the guy who had 5 GT top 10s before his first podium and 10 GT top 10s before his first - and only - win, as an example of a guy coming out of nowhere after being "in the grupetto for years" (the number of years with Sastre being... one)?

Come on del, you can do better than that. You could have tried Floyd (61, 77, 76, 23, DNF, 9, DNF, 1*) or Menchov (47, 93, 11, DNF, DNF, 85, 1*) to make your point, they'd have been better shouts than Sastre. They had better season-round results than Froome did though, and besides, Wiggins is more of an "in the grupetto for years" guy than Froome. Froome showed the potential to be a decent mountain domestique early on in his career, it's just that when he suddenly exploded, his results had been going backwards for 3 years and he was on the verge of being cut from the team that was desperate to have any worthwhile riders with a British passport. When I see such breakouts from a guy without a contract I think of Steve Houanard even though Froome did it before Steve did.

 

[del1962]

I don't think "I fired at the guy", just said Froome had a better GT debut thats all

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

I don't think "I fired at the guy", just said Froome had a better GT debut thats all

Yeah coz 83rd is kickin' ass and 101st is mediocre.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Just for del - the routes to the top of the GT winners of recent years.

Nairo Quintana: 36-2-1
Chris Horner: 33-61-20-14-36-DNF-DNF-9-DNF-13-1 (not years in the grupetto, but hardly a linear progression to the front)
Chris Froome: 84-36-DSQ-2-2-1 (doesn't look too bad compared to some but the 2,5 years between the 36 and the 2 is problematic)
Bradley Wiggins: 123-121-DNF-134-69-3*-40-23-DNF-3-1 (this is proper grupetto-to-podium stuff)
Ryder Hesjedal: DNF-DNF-60-46-46-DNF-5*-17-1 (this is not quite the same but similarly out of nowhere rise)
Juan José Cobo: DNF-DNF-20-DNF-10-1 (this would seem fairly logical if you include the stage win in the final DNF, but two years of achieving nothing between the 10 and the 1 are alarming. Nevertheless, Cobo was never a grupetto rider when motivated)
Cadel Evans: 14-60-8-4-2-4-2-30-3-5-26-1
Michele Scarponi: 18-16-13-32-47-11-DNF-(2 year ban)-31-4-1 (obvious improvement post-ban, but worth noting he was never in the grupetto)
Vincenzo Nibali: 19-11-20-6-3-1
Andy Schleck: 2-12-2-DNF-1*
Alejandro Valverde: DNF-3-4-DNF-DNF-2-5-9-5-1
Carlos Sastre: 101-8-20-DNF-38-10-9-35-8-6-21-2-43-3-4-3*-2-1
Alberto Contador: 31-1
Danilo di Luca: DNF-DNF-DNF-24-DNF-20-DNF-DNF-4-23-DNF-DNF-1 (a lot of DNFs in there, but still reasonable GCs when he made it to the end)
Aleksandr Vinokourov: 35-15-28-16-DNF-3-DNF-5-1

What we're actually seeing is that with the exception of Wiggins and to a lesser extent Hesjedal, the high GC placings are anomalous. Froome's progress when viewed in a flat GT line like that isn't too extraordinary, thanks to it masking large time gaps between GTs (as noted with Cobo as well, whose progress begins to look almost normal). The reasons for the various DNFs and DSQs are not always elaborated on, nor are where riders were before they DNFed (eg Froome was in >100th position and was thrown out the race for holding on to a motorbike, that obviously creates a different impression in somebody's mind than, say, Valverde crashing out of the 2006 Tour on stage 3, Horner crashing out of the 2009 Vuelta or Wiggins crashing out of the 2011 Tour on stage 7, before any reasonable guides to their shape and potential at the race can be shown. And that also has a different impression than Andy Schleck being kicked out of the 2009 Vuelta for drinking. Also, a rider's role in the race is not shown here; Quintana's 2012 Vuelta to finish 36th is more impressive than Froome's 2009 Giro to get the same GC; Froome had a couple of decent showings on a relatively un-GC-focused team, while Quintana dropped time in the first half of the race and was then climbing with Contador, Rodríguez and Valverde for most of the second half including having to drop back to pace Valverde a few times; similarly Evans' 14th in the 2002 Giro, after wearing the maglia rosa in week 3, is more impressive than Horner's 9th in the 2010 Tour, earned after some DQs and getting into a break in the abysmally designed 16th stage that gained a number of minutes.

In fact, it's weird that it's 2012's victories for clean cycling, Hesjedal and Wiggins, that have the weirdest routes to the top. Even those known dopers who transformed from puncheurs to GC men have pretty decent early GC showings (Scarponi, di Luca).

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Sky

Remarkably, del is actually right for once in his life. Cf did do better in his first gt than Sastre did.

Now where does a rider with the following gt pedigree fit into the equation :
Missed time limit stage 18
132
123
Dns stage 15 while outside top 100 iirc
134
70 
4th a month later with little rest time.

 

[neineinei]

Re: Re:

I dunno, not many are attacking Nibali or Contador for doping, are they?

Because 99.999% of the posters here don't believe that Nibali or Contador are clean for one second. If you look at Nibali/DirtyBertie/Piti/Movistar etc threads you'll see that everyone is like 'doper(s)' and the thread ends after a few pages. Sky threads are like the LA/Postal threads of old.

naaaa, it´s not about a few people telling they are clean
it´s not about that

it something else, I´m still trying to discover

it´s like anything ANYTHING Sky say or do it is baited repeated trolled joked criticized repeatet again, reposted etc etc
even the believers that sometimes post on here have seen the Henderson push or the TT commissaire crash pictures 3754 times.
and the frequent posters have seen them 765342853 times

so you mean 3 millions view on this thread is because a few members try do defend them?

I think there is a big problem with SKY.
just compare the number of posts on other threads about Nicki Sorensen doping, with the times De Jongh-Julich-Knaven names have been mentioned on here and other Sky related threads

Nicki doped as the other 3 did. but he did not ride nor worked with Sky. so after a few days we´ve forgotten.

anyway. that´s my view on that, I am one of the few Sky fans who have no problem to say they are on the juice as the other teams.
but somehow, when they win something, someone will tell me some other rider/doper deserve that win better.
but I don´t care, I think about Het Nieuwsblaad 2015 and smile.

Well to be fair to the other teams aside from Garmin. Teams don't release PR statements about being clean finding marginal gains, having their team manager(or whatever title Brailsford has) say utter junk like 'one day clean riders will get times that will beat the times of dopers...', 'we wash our hands', 'each rider has their own pillow'(RoboBasso used his own in 2010) etc etc. If other team managers said stuff like that, then I'm sure their team would also be mocked.

EDIT: Also when Brailsford said in 2012 that in the off season he would have an open event, where anyone could attend and ask any question(s) they wanted too. What happened to that event? EDIT.

Oh and I think this is important(well for me it is), teams don't have guys that start off in the autobus then go to winning every race they enter for 6 months at a time. Can you tell me the last GT winner who spent their first few GT's in the autobus then..... BAM winning.

ok
so the problem is not IF riders dope
but HOW they do it and when they BEGIN to do so?
Contador last year won plenty of races before crashing at the tour and winning the vuelta
is he more allowed to dope than Froome?

about the PR and marginal gains: maybe it´s my way of behaving, but I don´t get angry at that. I don´t read that. I never cared about washing hands or clean times better than doped times. it clear as water that´s spinning the narrative for the dear fans, why bother with that?
I follow the races instead of reading press releases made for UK fan that could possibly make me angry.

about Nicki Sorensen, the CN forum is lucky he did not work for Sky. because otherwise the servers would be having problems. where´s everybody now? hey! wake up

oh look what I found
Davide Appollonio suspended for EPO. June 2015

look what Digger writes about the news
**** the hypocrisy ‏@Digger_forum 25 min25 minuti fa
So former Sky rider popped - luckily for Sky he only doped after he was on that team obviously.

it´s 3 THREE years ago, 2012, when he rode for SKY

but all that matters is he is a former Sky rider

things like that make me root for them too

Sky has a zero tolerance policy. That is why Knaven being a DS for Sky is more interesting than Sørensen being one for Tinkoff. When Sky started they said they would avoid people with doping in the past, then they hired quite a number of people they had to know had been doping in their past. And when it turned out Barry was involved in the Armstrong saga they started kicking out these people again. Not to mention Leinders. How is this not going to inspire satire?

The Norw. newspaper Dagbladet (and cycling website procycling.no) had this headline for the news about the Appollonio positive: Tidligere Sky-rytter tatt for doping, they are usually quite pro Sky. It's not just Digger who saw that connection.

 

[The Hitch]

Sky have ztp. They also have innumerable articles books and documentaries celebrating their "clean" success, some outright insulting anyone who dare doubt.

There's a book out there called "How Dave Brailsford reinvented the wheel" and it's not satire. Wake me up when "how Oleg reinvented the wheel comes out". Until then, that book alone legitimizes at least 30 000 posts.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

I don't think "I fired at the guy", just said Froome had a better GT debut thats all

Sastre crashed twice in the first week and rode through the injuries. He had a couple of nice rides in the mountains though IIRC

 

[Electress]

Re:

Sky have ztp. They also have innumerable articles books and documentaries celebrating their "clean" success, some outright insulting anyone who dare doubt.

There's a book out there called "How Dave Brailsford reinvented the wheel" and it's not satire. Wake me up when "how Oleg reinvented the wheel comes out". Until then, that book alone legitimizes at least 30 000 posts.

Please tell me this isn't true? OMG, it is. I honestly thought you were being sarcastic.

Fact is, for me, if cycling is a metaphor for life, I'm not cheering for the dodgy accountants. Rather a villain with a nod and a wink and some panache. At least they don't insult your intelligence by preaching sanctimonious horseshit.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Just for del - the routes to the top of the GT winners of recent years.

Nairo Quintana: 36-2-1
Chris Horner: 33-61-20-14-36-DNF-DNF-9-DNF-13-1 (not years in the grupetto, but hardly a linear progression to the front)
Chris Froome: 84-36-DSQ-2-2-1 (doesn't look too bad compared to some but the 2,5 years between the 36 and the 2 is problematic)
Bradley Wiggins: 123-121-DNF-134-69-3*-40-23-DNF-3-1 (this is proper grupetto-to-podium stuff)
Ryder Hesjedal: DNF-DNF-60-46-46-DNF-5*-17-1 (this is not quite the same but similarly out of nowhere rise)
Juan José Cobo: DNF-DNF-20-DNF-10-1 (this would seem fairly logical if you include the stage win in the final DNF, but two years of achieving nothing between the 10 and the 1 are alarming. Nevertheless, Cobo was never a grupetto rider when motivated)
Cadel Evans: 14-60-8-4-2-4-2-30-3-5-26-1
Michele Scarponi: 18-16-13-32-47-11-DNF-(2 year ban)-31-4-1 (obvious improvement post-ban, but worth noting he was never in the grupetto)
Vincenzo Nibali: 19-11-20-6-3-1
Andy Schleck: 2-12-2-DNF-1*
Alejandro Valverde: DNF-3-4-DNF-DNF-2-5-9-5-1
Carlos Sastre: 101-8-20-DNF-38-10-9-35-8-6-21-2-43-3-4-3*-2-1
Alberto Contador: 31-1
Danilo di Luca: DNF-DNF-DNF-24-DNF-20-DNF-DNF-4-23-DNF-DNF-1 (a lot of DNFs in there, but still reasonable GCs when he made it to the end)
Aleksandr Vinokourov: 35-15-28-16-DNF-3-DNF-5-1

What we're actually seeing is that with the exception of Wiggins and to a lesser extent Hesjedal, the high GC placings are anomalous. Froome's progress when viewed in a flat GT line like that isn't too extraordinary, thanks to it masking large time gaps between GTs (as noted with Cobo as well, whose progress begins to look almost normal). The reasons for the various DNFs and DSQs are not always elaborated on, nor are where riders were before they DNFed (eg Froome was in >100th position and was thrown out the race for holding on to a motorbike, that obviously creates a different impression in somebody's mind than, say, Valverde crashing out of the 2006 Tour on stage 3, Horner crashing out of the 2009 Vuelta or Wiggins crashing out of the 2011 Tour on stage 7, before any reasonable guides to their shape and potential at the race can be shown. And that also has a different impression than Andy Schleck being kicked out of the 2009 Vuelta for drinking. Also, a rider's role in the race is not shown here; Quintana's 2012 Vuelta to finish 36th is more impressive than Froome's 2009 Giro to get the same GC; Froome had a couple of decent showings on a relatively un-GC-focused team, while Quintana dropped time in the first half of the race and was then climbing with Contador, Rodríguez and Valverde for most of the second half including having to drop back to pace Valverde a few times; similarly Evans' 14th in the 2002 Giro, after wearing the maglia rosa in week 3, is more impressive than Horner's 9th in the 2010 Tour, earned after some DQs and getting into a break in the abysmally designed 16th stage that gained a number of minutes.

In fact, it's weird that it's 2012's victories for clean cycling, Hesjedal and Wiggins, that have the weirdest routes to the top. Even those known dopers who transformed from puncheurs to GC men have pretty decent early GC showings (Scarponi, di Luca).

good stuff.
as you say difficult to draw firm conclusions from.
and some twisted minds will no doubt explain RH's and BW's sudden rise as eviidence that they are clean, along the lines of "They sucked when doping was rife".

 

[Archibald]

Re:

Just for del - the routes to the top of the GT winners of recent years.

Nairo Quintana: 36-2-1
Chris Horner: 33-61-20-14-36-DNF-DNF-9-DNF-13-1 (not years in the grupetto, but hardly a linear progression to the front)
Chris Froome: 84-36-DSQ-2-2-1 (doesn't look too bad compared to some but the 2,5 years between the 36 and the 2 is problematic)
Bradley Wiggins: 123-121-DNF-134-69-3*-40-23-DNF-3-1 (this is proper grupetto-to-podium stuff)
Ryder Hesjedal: DNF-DNF-60-46-46-DNF-5*-17-1 (this is not quite the same but similarly out of nowhere rise)
Juan José Cobo: DNF-DNF-20-DNF-10-1 (this would seem fairly logical if you include the stage win in the final DNF, but two years of achieving nothing between the 10 and the 1 are alarming. Nevertheless, Cobo was never a grupetto rider when motivated)
Cadel Evans: 14-60-8-4-2-4-2-30-3-5-26-1
Michele Scarponi: 18-16-13-32-47-11-DNF-(2 year ban)-31-4-1 (obvious improvement post-ban, but worth noting he was never in the grupetto)
Vincenzo Nibali: 19-11-20-6-3-1
Andy Schleck: 2-12-2-DNF-1*
Alejandro Valverde: DNF-3-4-DNF-DNF-2-5-9-5-1
Carlos Sastre: 101-8-20-DNF-38-10-9-35-8-6-21-2-43-3-4-3*-2-1
Alberto Contador: 31-1
Danilo di Luca: DNF-DNF-DNF-24-DNF-20-DNF-DNF-4-23-DNF-DNF-1 (a lot of DNFs in there, but still reasonable GCs when he made it to the end)
Aleksandr Vinokourov: 35-15-28-16-DNF-3-DNF-5-1

What we're actually seeing is that with the exception of Wiggins and to a lesser extent Hesjedal, the high GC placings are anomalous. Froome's progress when viewed in a flat GT line like that isn't too extraordinary, thanks to it masking large time gaps between GTs (as noted with Cobo as well, whose progress begins to look almost normal). The reasons for the various DNFs and DSQs are not always elaborated on, nor are where riders were before they DNFed (eg Froome was in >100th position and was thrown out the race for holding on to a motorbike, that obviously creates a different impression in somebody's mind than, say, Valverde crashing out of the 2006 Tour on stage 3, Horner crashing out of the 2009 Vuelta or Wiggins crashing out of the 2011 Tour on stage 7, before any reasonable guides to their shape and potential at the race can be shown. And that also has a different impression than Andy Schleck being kicked out of the 2009 Vuelta for drinking. Also, a rider's role in the race is not shown here; Quintana's 2012 Vuelta to finish 36th is more impressive than Froome's 2009 Giro to get the same GC; Froome had a couple of decent showings on a relatively un-GC-focused team, while Quintana dropped time in the first half of the race and was then climbing with Contador, Rodríguez and Valverde for most of the second half including having to drop back to pace Valverde a few times; similarly Evans' 14th in the 2002 Giro, after wearing the maglia rosa in week 3, is more impressive than Horner's 9th in the 2010 Tour, earned after some DQs and getting into a break in the abysmally designed 16th stage that gained a number of minutes.

In fact, it's weird that it's 2012's victories for clean cycling, Hesjedal and Wiggins, that have the weirdest routes to the top. Even those known dopers who transformed from puncheurs to GC men have pretty decent early GC showings (Scarponi, di Luca).

as bolded, I'd be curious to see which results were as protected team leader going for the GC win vs any domestique duties or other race targets...

let's face it, who finished higher as a GT debut is pretty meaningless if the rider wasn't going for the win, but just part of the team crew...

 

[Digger]

Firstly I was talking most of last week about Nicki -

Secondly, I don't see Contador fans or Astana fans going to the extremes that Sky fans do when I say they are doping - Sky fans are a disgrace and I have seen it first hand what some are capable of.

 

[franic]

Re:

Just for del - the routes to the top of the GT winners of recent years.

Nairo Quintana: 36-2-1
Chris Horner: 33-61-20-14-36-DNF-DNF-9-DNF-13-1 (not years in the grupetto, but hardly a linear progression to the front)
Chris Froome: 84-36-DSQ-2-2-1 (doesn't look too bad compared to some but the 2,5 years between the 36 and the 2 is problematic)
Bradley Wiggins: 123-121-DNF-134-69-3*-40-23-DNF-3-1 (this is proper grupetto-to-podium stuff)
Ryder Hesjedal: DNF-DNF-60-46-46-DNF-5*-17-1 (this is not quite the same but similarly out of nowhere rise)
Juan José Cobo: DNF-DNF-20-DNF-10-1 (this would seem fairly logical if you include the stage win in the final DNF, but two years of achieving nothing between the 10 and the 1 are alarming. Nevertheless, Cobo was never a grupetto rider when motivated)
Cadel Evans: 14-60-8-4-2-4-2-30-3-5-26-1
Michele Scarponi: 18-16-13-32-47-11-DNF-(2 year ban)-31-4-1 (obvious improvement post-ban, but worth noting he was never in the grupetto)
Vincenzo Nibali: 19-11-20-6-3-1
Andy Schleck: 2-12-2-DNF-1*
Alejandro Valverde: DNF-3-4-DNF-DNF-2-5-9-5-1
Carlos Sastre: 101-8-20-DNF-38-10-9-35-8-6-21-2-43-3-4-3*-2-1
Alberto Contador: 31-1
Danilo di Luca: DNF-DNF-DNF-24-DNF-20-DNF-DNF-4-23-DNF-DNF-1 (a lot of DNFs in there, but still reasonable GCs when he made it to the end)
Aleksandr Vinokourov: 35-15-28-16-DNF-3-DNF-5-1

What we're actually seeing is that with the exception of Wiggins and to a lesser extent Hesjedal, the high GC placings are anomalous. Froome's progress when viewed in a flat GT line like that isn't too extraordinary, thanks to it masking large time gaps between GTs (as noted with Cobo as well, whose progress begins to look almost normal). The reasons for the various DNFs and DSQs are not always elaborated on, nor are where riders were before they DNFed (eg Froome was in >100th position and was thrown out the race for holding on to a motorbike, that obviously creates a different impression in somebody's mind than, say, Valverde crashing out of the 2006 Tour on stage 3, Horner crashing out of the 2009 Vuelta or Wiggins crashing out of the 2011 Tour on stage 7, before any reasonable guides to their shape and potential at the race can be shown. And that also has a different impression than Andy Schleck being kicked out of the 2009 Vuelta for drinking. Also, a rider's role in the race is not shown here; Quintana's 2012 Vuelta to finish 36th is more impressive than Froome's 2009 Giro to get the same GC; Froome had a couple of decent showings on a relatively un-GC-focused team, while Quintana dropped time in the first half of the race and was then climbing with Contador, Rodríguez and Valverde for most of the second half including having to drop back to pace Valverde a few times; similarly Evans' 14th in the 2002 Giro, after wearing the maglia rosa in week 3, is more impressive than Horner's 9th in the 2010 Tour, earned after some DQs and getting into a break in the abysmally designed 16th stage that gained a number of minutes.

In fact, it's weird that it's 2012's victories for clean cycling, Hesjedal and Wiggins, that have the weirdest routes to the top. Even those known dopers who transformed from puncheurs to GC men have pretty decent early GC showings (Scarponi, di Luca).

Nibali seems to have the most natural progression, IMHO. Consider that you probably made a small mistake and his progression is:
19-11-19-6-3-1 … 2-7-3-1-2-1

It looks like an almost perfect progression. For instance let’s divide it among different Tours, given that the Vuelta is not at the same level of the Giro and the Giro of Le Tour.

Vuelta: 1-7-2
Giro: 19-11-3-2-1
Tour: 19-6-3-1

Again an almost perfect progression, especially if you consider he was 7th in 2011 Vuelta behind Cobo, Wiggins, Froome, Mollema, Menchov, Monfort while when he won in 2010 the top was: Mosquera, Velits, Purito, F. Schleck, Tondo, Roche, Sastre, Danielson, LL Sanchez. And again, if you exclude a doped Horner in 2013 he had behind: Valverde, Purito, Roche, Pozzovivo, Pinot, Samuel Sanchez, Konig, Dani Moreno.