Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Police have the right to search houses of crime suspects.
Proathletes should be happy nobody is calling for that. It would be warranted seeing the extent of corruption and cheating in topsport.

Really u shouldnt start about the alleged injustice of publishing some TUEs when the fate of clean athletes is at stake.

I'm sorry, what are you talking about? Are you implying every single athlete is a criminal? Should be suspected of a crime? (and you still haven't said what crime all these proathletes are committing? Even if police found TUEs in a search that doesn't make them public record. This is just descending into ridiculousness.

participation in a professional sport is not a human right...if its integrity is to be protected (and let's assume it is based on the existence of the various governing bodies and WADA) then athletes who benefit from the rewards it brings, both financial and otherwise, should not get too upset if they need to lose some rights to do so....

in cycling especially when the CIRC report highlighted TUEs and rapid (and extreme) weight loss...both associated with, at least Mr Wiggins, if not Froome as well....

No. Being an athlete is no different to any other job, no-one said it was a human right. If you think they should lose certain human rights to do it then you should have no problem with anyone losing certain human rights to do any job. Is that the case?

different jobs bring with them different constraints...the argument here is that due to the history and abuse of PEDs then professional sports may need to have another constraint added...c'est la vie

there were those that argued giving blood samples was an infringement on human rights.....

This is a strawman argument unless you can show a job where people are forced to release private information to the public.

Blood sample results are not released to the public unless they are found to be positive for banned substances and even then it is not the actual report. Possession of a TUE does not = cheating. I have absolutely no problem with investigations into TUEs, tightening up the system and being much stricter about what is acceptable etc. The problem is specifically with forcing people to release private medical information.

 

[spetsa]

Re: Re:

Police have the right to search houses of crime suspects.
Proathletes should be happy nobody is calling for that. It would be warranted seeing the extent of corruption and cheating in topsport.

Really u shouldnt start about the alleged injustice of publishing some TUEs when the fate of clean athletes is at stake.

With the prior approval of a judge or magistrate.

No, probable cause or reasonable suspicion in the UK allows police to search without the need for a warrant. You really are amateur hour when it comes to this stuff.

That's only when making an arrest or to search for evidence of a crime for which you are currently arrested.

You are possibly thinking about stop and search which does not require a warrant but is only for drugs, a weapon, stolen property or to find evidence for intent to commit (like a crowbar).

Stopping withour reasonable grounds requires sign off by a senior officer and is to search for weapons being carried, used in a crime or evidence of such or if you are in an area where searches have been designated.

No.

Reasonable suspicion allows the police to enter private property. i.e. If they saw Wiggins carrying a load of EPO from the back of his car into his house and believed the goods were illegally obtained they could enter the property. Where it may come unstuck is in court whereby the evidence obtained by the police may be considered inadmissible if the defendant proved that the bar for reasonable suspicion was not met and evidence was obtained by an illegal search. For example if they entered the property on the basis of the EPO and found out it was only a box of British Cycling jerseys but also found 5 grams of skunk, they would be unable (within reason) to prosecute on the marijuana. The cause was the EPO not marijuana.

Stop And Frisk was overturned in the US by Federal ruling. Please don't make up things or guess. The law is clear on these matters.

Wrong. Stop and frisk is legal in the US. Stop talking about which you know nothing.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Wrong. Stop and frisk is legal in the US. Stop talking about which you know nothing.

As I said, reasonable suspicion has to be employed.

New York:

On August 12, 2013, U.S. District Court Judge Shira Scheindlin ruled that the stop and frisk practice was unconstitutional and directed the Police to adopt a written policy to specify where such stops are authorized. Scheindlin appointed Peter L. Zimroth, a former chief lawyer for the City of New York, to oversee the program. Mayor Bloomberg indicated that the city will appeal the ruling.[27] Scheindlin had denied pleas for a stay in her overthrow of the policing policy, saying that "Ordering a stay now would send precisely the wrong signal. It would essentially confirm that the past practices... were justified and based on constitutional police practices. It would also send the message that reducing the number of stops is somehow dangerous to the residents of this city.

California:

The law of “stop-and-frisk”—also known as “Terry stops”—in California consists of two basic rules:
1.Police may temporarily detain you in a public place—even without a valid arrest warrant—if they have a “reasonable suspicion” that you have been involved in criminal activity;1 and
2.Police may conduct a pat-down search (also known as a “frisk”) of your outer clothing to look for weapons, if they have a justifiable belief that you may be armed and dangerous.2

These rules have their roots in the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, under which you have the right to be free from unreasonable “searches and seizures” by law enforcement.3

 

[Benotti69]

**** Pound

"You can test all day and not catch people because they know how to avoid the tests.

"So, in this case, the real culprits are the IFs and other organisations who have not found positive cases because they have no interest in catching cheats.

"To deal with 206 countries with a budget of less than $30 million (£23 million/€27 million) is ridiculous, quite frankly.

"We cannot possibly do the job we need to do."

http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1042151/exclusive-pound-doubtful-olympic-summit-of-usual-suspects-will-fully-solve-global-anti-doping-problems#.V-6SneKFDXs.twitter

Please tell me someone who believes that Sky or anyone else for that matter can win clean.

The culture to dope is promoted by IFs, by the very fact as pound says they have no interest. Just look at Cookson's deafening silence on Wiggins, the failure to do anything about Dr Bonar, Armstead and on and on.......

So Wiggins TUE is the tip of Sky's pharmaceutical cabinet. It has to be! Why because we know the other teams have an engrained culture to dope, so Sky had to join them to beat them.

 

[Rob27172]

There is an easy answer to this question
The crime that has been committed is sporting fraud which is a crime in a number of european countries and ones in which Bradley competed
therefore you get a european arrest warrant for him on those grounds and then force him to release his medical records to the appropriate authorities and do with him what you will.

Also there are plenty of jobs where your human rights in relation to what many would consider to be your private medical records are impinged. Pilots, teachers, some doctors and even in financial companies employees can be subject to drink and drug tests and can be fired or suspended or worse arrested if they fail to provide samples or fail the tests.
The thing is should they be made public.

In the normal course of matters no of course not, However when you are a celebrity and have earned a LOT of money and taken a lot of money from others, (possibly by illicit means) and have caused bonuses and other payments to be made off the back of a fraud.

Well amazingly all the bankers and celebrities who end up in court get lambasted and publicly humiliated, all the singers and stars of hollywood who do something wrong and find themselves on the wrong side of the law - end up publicly humiliated.

Many athletes who have been busted and end up on the wrong side do end up publicly humiliated.

So in the end it is probably only going to end up in the public court anyway.

So if you have nothing to hide and you want to keep the public (who made you that wealthy in the first place) on side then why not get ahead of the game release the proof and put the story to bed.

Right or wrong it is the world we live in now and unless you have something to hide it is the only way- because silence will only get more people interested and more and more investigative digging will get done. Until they find what it is you are hiding.

Anyone who thinks that fame celebrity and morals are still in any way linked is living in a dream world.

 

[Der Effe]

Re: Re:

The GB track team have Sky on their shorts so I think it is appropriate to ask here. King Boonen is clearly pro Sky and GB. Could they please explain their own take on how the whole GB team performed so incredibly well in Rio? How does an already top successful rider some late 20s improve so much?

Cavendish takes I think 8 seconds off his best IP time and is disappointed not to break Sir Brad's Olympic record even though Sir Brad is probably the best IP rider ever. How does a road sprinter who cannot Time Trial to save his life with so little time to train after the tour, go so close to Sir Brad's time? No marginal gains here. Massive unbelievable incredible stupendous gains.

How does Laura Trot take so much off her PB when she has done so many IPs?

How does Kenny ride a 9.5 at sea level? Kenny's father in law to be told me at the event that Kenny wanted to quit last year. What a turn around.

How can Skinner improve so much from the worlds but also on any of his previous performances?

The British women couldn't qualify for the womens team sprint and I have no doubt on their top 2 qualifying rides, that they would have won the TS had they qualified.

Both TPs men and women break world records. Less surprising but still amazing.

Not just them though.

How does Lasse Hansen take 5 seconds off his PB for the IP? Did you all see how he lapped the field in the points race? Beyond normal in my opinion. It took him many laps.

How does Viviani take seconds off his PB for the IP?

These two have done so many IPs including at many worlds events. So how do they improve so much in one go?

These guys made Gaviria look second rate which they couldn't do six months earlier.

Thanks

I think anyone who knows Adrian well enough to have that conversation would also know that his daughter would have nothing to do with PEDs or anything else likely to impact negatively on her health

Didn't say I knew Mr Trott. I was just sitting behind him and he was very excited when the GB men won the Team Sprint and he made the statement to me that Jason was going to quit cycling and had no self confidence last year and that it was great to see him go so great in Rio. Fair comment by him. Good on Mr Trott.

I still question the incredible improvements by the whole team from GB. They weren't marginal. They were stupendous. And not all drugs impact negatively.

You're not the only one. All the other nations didn't know whether to laugh or cry when they saw the pantomime Team GB had in store for us.

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/sir-bradley-en-de-vijf-leugens~a4387145/

'Sir Bradley and the five lies'

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Sky

Since the scandal hit, have those cycling tips deadbeat writers pretending to be an anonymous "professional cyclist" in order to make it look like all pro cyclists believe in Sky but doubt non anglo teams, have any articles.

Will be entertaining to see them try to spin this

 

[Benotti69]

Sky looking to hire bots

https://twitter.com/Simon_Jones1/status/782594891461300224

 

[rick james]

Re:

The GB track team have Sky on their shorts so I think it is appropriate to ask here. King Boonen is clearly pro Sky and GB. Could they please explain their own take on how the whole GB team performed so incredibly well in Rio? How does an already top successful rider some late 20s improve so much?

Cavendish takes I think 8 seconds off his best IP time and is disappointed not to break Sir Brad's Olympic record even though Sir Brad is probably the best IP rider ever. How does a road sprinter who cannot Time Trial to save his life with so little time to train after the tour, go so close to Sir Brad's time? No marginal gains here. Massive unbelievable incredible stupendous gains.

How does Laura Trot take so much off her PB when she has done so many IPs?

How does Kenny ride a 9.5 at sea level? Kenny's father in law to be told me at the event that Kenny wanted to quit last year. What a turn around.

How can Skinner improve so much from the worlds but also on any of his previous performances?

The British women couldn't qualify for the womens team sprint and I have no doubt on their top 2 qualifying rides, that they would have won the TS had they qualified.

Both TPs men and women break world records. Less surprising but still amazing.

Not just them though.

How does Lasse Hansen take 5 seconds off his PB for the IP? Did you all see how he lapped the field in the points race? Beyond normal in my opinion. It took him many laps.

How does Viviani take seconds off his PB for the IP?

These two have done so many IPs including at many worlds events. So how do they improve so much in one go?

These guys made Gaviria look second rate which they couldn't do six months earlier.

Thanks

no he isn't

 

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

Okay Okay

And what medical privacy and human rights does the 800m runner Semenya have? Wait a minute maybe if she was British?

She has the same rights as everyone else and I find the public questioning over her gender as disgusting as I find the leaking of anyone elses private medical details. Simone Biles isn't British either.

Not exactly what I said. Her Medical records have been made public by the powers that be. They said they have tested her to see if she is male or female. They have disclosed her testosterone levels. Yes she probably gave permission to disclose her testosterone levels to clear her name because of the terrible accusations but they made it public that they were looking into testing her to find out whether she is male or female.

This released TUE stuff is nothing in comparison.

 

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

Thanks for your reply King Boonen

I don't think any athlete's medical records regarding their chosen sport should be private. That line only helps with the covering up of stuff like Wiggins has just got caught out on. I go with those saying it's extremely convenient having Cookson at the top. Many of the World leading Sports Bodies are riddled with corruption.

I don't blame the Russians. It's called Pay Back.

I'll just add here, that all TUE's should be made public because the gambling public bet on the major sporting events. I like a bet myself. Agencies like Ladbrokes. In America a racehorse trainer caught doping a horse can have added charges related to ripping off the gambling public.

Why single out athletes? They are just doing a job. Would you like your medical records to be public knowledge? Who decides if it relates to their sport? Simone Biles took medication for her ADHD but she now has to defend herself and deal with the fact something that was obviously very private is known around the world. What if people are on anti-depressants, being treated for illnesses they would rather people didn't know about? I absolutely think that the TUE system could be improved, but the idea of releasing people's private medical records to the public is, frankly, horrifying to me.

It would be extremely convenient having Cookson at the top, apart from the fact that all of Wiggin's TUEs are from before Cookson was at the top.

Gambling is your choice, no one forces you to do it and there is a reason it's called gambling.

McQuaid was suspect himself regarding drugs use in cycling and what was allowed to go on but It's more than handy to have an Englander there now when GB riders are doing so well compared to the past.

It is still a fact that in America it is considered a chargeable crime against the gambler when a racehorse trainer gets caught doping a horse. Your opinion on it obviously wouldn't matter in the USA.

 

[Craigee]

Re:

**** Pound

"You can test all day and not catch people because they know how to avoid the tests.

"So, in this case, the real culprits are the IFs and other organisations who have not found positive cases because they have no interest in catching cheats.

"To deal with 206 countries with a budget of less than $30 million (£23 million/€27 million) is ridiculous, quite frankly.

"We cannot possibly do the job we need to do."

http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1042151/exclusive-pound-doubtful-olympic-summit-of-usual-suspects-will-fully-solve-global-anti-doping-problems#.V-6SneKFDXs.twitter

Please tell me someone who believes that Sky or anyone else for that matter can win clean.

The culture to dope is promoted by IFs, by the very fact as pound says they have no interest. Just look at Cookson's deafening silence on Wiggins, the failure to do anything about Dr Bonar, Armstead and on and on.......

So Wiggins TUE is the tip of Sky's pharmaceutical cabinet. It has to be! Why because we know the other teams have an engrained culture to dope, so Sky had to join them to beat them.

Spot On

I am affiliated to horse racing which is easy to relate to sports especially cycling with it's history of doping and historic doping in horse racing and many of the small trainers horses are tested more than the leading trainers who win all the big money and the small guys see it as the officials not wanting to discover positive tests with the big stables.

1) Either they are in with the leading trainers,

or

2) They don't want bad or negative publicity for the industry that comes with positive tests from the leading trainers. Betting on races always takes a dive when ever a top trainer gets caught doping.

So Which one does the UCI come under? Mr Cookson's main argument that got him elected was doping and how it was handled by the UCI leader. Now he plays it down like it isn't a major problem. Has he already cleaned the game up with very little effort?

Applications for TUE's have Sky (excuse the pun) rocketed under his leadership. Is this the way around it?

 

[Benotti69]

JTL outing Sky and their use of Tramadol and TUEs.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/37578989

Tiernan-Locke says tramadol was 'offered freely around' GB team at 2012 Worlds, that was effectively a Team Sky line-up.

Team Sky rider Michael Barry said the same as JTL when he left team under a cloud in 2014.

Ex-Team Sky doc Richard Freeman was on GB duty at 2012 Worlds and they used Team Sky bus.

JTL wont be getting any WT riders while Cookson is pres.

 

[JRanton]

Re: Sky

Still no rules broken. Still no smoking gun. Sky said they'd go right up to the line of what was acceptable when they first started so I'm not sure where these cries of hypocrisy come from.

Sky are subjected to double standards because they're a British team.

 

[rick james]

LOL some clutching at straws

 

[sniper]

Sky lied about being transparent, not using in cpmpetition TUEs and not knowing Leinders past.
As mastermind Brailscort once said, you don't lie on Monday but not on tuesday.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

Still no rules broken. Still no smoking gun. Sky said they'd go right up to the line of what was acceptable when they first started so I'm not sure where these cries of hypocrisy come from.

Sky are subjected to double standards because they're a British team.

Sky denied they used tramadol!

Sky said they would refuse to race a rider than give him a TUE.

Refused to join MPCC as they consider MPCC not strict enough!

Wiggins was on 40mg TUE and former riders claim that gives carte blanche to continue using it over 3 weeks racing.

No hypocrisy here.....never mind the blantant lying.

 

[JRanton]

Re:

LOL some clutching at straws

The greatest transformations of all time (according to the clinic) were achieved due to the use of a painkiller that isn't on the banned list and a Corticosteroid that isn't even banned when taken out of competition. Clinic logic.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

LOL some clutching at straws

Do you not read what Brailsford has said since 2010?

Or do you just take the pieces you want to believe.

Sky deservedly getting hammered for lying and hypocrisy.

A team that lies in pro cycling is doping.

LOL clutching a sky lies.......

 

[JRanton]

Re:

Sky lied about being transparent, not using in cpmpetition TUEs and not knowing Leinders past.
As mastermind Brailscort once said, you don't lie on Monday but not on tuesday.

Sky have been more transparent than pretty much every other team. I don't believe they ever said they'd never use an in competition TUE. There's also no proof that Brailsford and Peters were aware of Leinders' past.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

LOL some clutching at straws

Do you not read what Brailsford has said since 2010?

Or do you just take the pieces you want to believe.

Sky deservedly getting hammered for lying and hypocrisy.

A team that lies in pro cycling is doping.

LOL clutching a sky lies.......

Pot, Kettle, Black

 

[JRanton]

Re: Sky

Still no rules broken. Still no smoking gun. Sky said they'd go right up to the line of what was acceptable when they first started so I'm not sure where these cries of hypocrisy come from.

Sky are subjected to double standards because they're a British team.

Sky denied they used tramadol!

Sky said they would refuse to race a rider than give him a TUE.

Refused to join MPCC as they consider MPCC not strict enough!

Wiggins was on 40mg TUE and former riders claim that gives carte blanche to continue using it over 3 weeks racing.

No hypocrisy here.....never mind the blantant lying.

Sky admitted to using tramadol but said they stopped using it in 2012.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

LOL some clutching at straws

The greatest transformations of all time (according to the clinic) were achieved due to the use of a painkiller that isn't on the banned list and a Corticosteroid that isn't even banned when taken out of competition. Clinic logic.

One of the greatest transformations, yep a guy who was in 2007 spewing hate against dopers due to him being in the grupetto. Then he joined the club.

That Wiggins was caught using one of the most power PEDs which he claims to have taken as prevantative, which is illegal according to rules.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO MAKE UP A SICKNESS TO GET A TUE. ILLEGAL!

Now his team lied about TUEs, so lets just call that the tip of the PED iceberg. I mean if they are going to lie about TUEs, what else are they taking? Not hard to make a leap to imagine lots!!! Add in Leinders, Tenerfie, Knaven, Cioni, De Jongh, Mick Rogers, Jullich, Yates et al and we see a top tier team of experienced dopers!!!

Froome who had no TUEs for the 2012 TdF made Wiggins look ordinary. The TdF12 was designed for Wiggins and he still wasn't the stronges rider with huge Kenacort injections!

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

Still no rules broken. Still no smoking gun. Sky said they'd go right up to the line of what was acceptable when they first started so I'm not sure where these cries of hypocrisy come from.

Sky are subjected to double standards because they're a British team.

Sky denied they used tramadol!

Sky said they would refuse to race a rider than give him a TUE.

Refused to join MPCC as they consider MPCC not strict enough!

Wiggins was on 40mg TUE and former riders claim that gives carte blanche to continue using it over 3 weeks racing.

No hypocrisy here.....never mind the blantant lying.

Sky admitted to using tramadol but said they stopped using it in 2012.

I think we should trust what Sky tell us.............. :lol: