Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ripper]

I've been very forceful in my defence of Bradley, but this is worrying. This morning when I saw his strong defence complete with swearing, I thought "good lad".

However, the fact is Sky are smashing this Tour. And we've seen this before. If they don't want to lose the PR battle they better come up with some legit answers cause at the moment it is USPS v2.0. The onus is on them to prove themselves clean, not for us to prove they're dirty.

I'm praying my worst fears aren't being realised.

This ...

The bolded shows rational thinking. It's not a 'hate' on Wiggins and Sky, it's that that the whole thing is so over the top it's a farce. USPS v.2 is very accurate.

 

[maxmartin]

Hm, I wonder why people keep saying that Fabian has no chance of winning the Tour. If he wanted to he would have to lose weight and give up some of his power in the TT to be able to climb better. Well, that theory was pretty much buried today...

Fabian definitely can win the Tour if move to SKY
will that be his next team?

 

[BroDeal]

Wiggins’ climbing abilities can be explained by a loss of 20 kilos.

This is Wiggins on Cofidis. He lost 20kg? Did he have internal organs removed or something?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

This is the second GT in a row where we have seen the Wiggins/Froome duo dominate. Froome was out with a blood infection, had virtually no real racing, then comes to the TdF and crushes everyone...except for his teammate, Wiggins.

Wiggins couldn't sniff Cancellara's jock in the TT, but today puts a minute into him.

This tour is turning out to be a farce.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

This is Wiggins on Cofidis. He lost 20kg? Did he have internal organs removed or something?

20kg = 44 pounds. Royalpig apparently thinks Wiggins lost 44 pounds when he moved over to Team Sky.

Hilarious. Was he wearing a Jani Brajkovic when he was previously weighed?

 

[ggusta]

You compare Wiggos win today with Landis win to Morzine or what?
Wiggo performed more or less as expected in a TT he has been preparing for all year. A good performance, but nothing extreme like Landis win.

I think all he was saying was that the 2 podium celebrations were similar and they were. Nothing more. I understand what he meant.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Wiggins on Garmin

 

[Ripper]

Wiggo, not more than a slight improvement since 2009 when he came 4th in TdF.

How can you actually state with a straight face that Wiggo 2009 is anything close to Wiggo now. That itself is a huge leap.

 

[royalpig180]

20kg = 44 pounds. Royalpig apparently thinks Wiggins lost 44 pounds when he moved over to Team Sky.

Hilarious. Was he wearing a Jani Brajkovic when he was previously weighed?

Woops, I meant 20 lbs (9 kg) sorry.

 

[DominicDecoco]

W ... T ... F?

How can you actually state with a straight face that Wiggo 2009 is anything close to Wiggo now. That itself is a huge leap. Don't be a f*cking tool.

Isn't it the leap on towards 2009 that is supicious..? After 2009 we've been quite used to see a Wiggins winning stuff.

 

[Bala Verde]

Because they just came into cycling and arrived with ideas from outside road racing.

Sometimes having a different way of looking at things can give you a huge edge in a field.

You ask different questions, you have a different set of reference points, you get different answers.

(Remember Sky fell on their faces in the first year - partly because they were doing things differently.)

So, that's why I believe Sky could come up with legit breakthroughs the long-serving teams would be unlikely to find - they have a fresher set of eyes.

However, if it turns Froome from a nobody to the 2nd best GC rider in the world (outside of AC), then it's a breakthrough that, IMO, needs to be explained for it to be believed.

OK. Understood.

I am sorry; I don't buy into the 'coming from outside the sport' makes you look at things differently. Or perhaps it does [looking at things differently], but the real issues is that actually implies that without those outsiders, things wouldn't have changed, hence improved.

I would find it hard to believe that not one single individual from within the cycling industry, could have come up with those exact ideas. The cycling world is not one homogenous, amorphous group where everyone has the exact line of thinking. Like in any group, there must be contrarians, inventors, traditionalists, formalists, entrepreneurs etc etc.

I am still wondering what could these new people bring to the table?

When you hear that Man United hires a tennis coach to help them prepare them for the season, you'd lol. (I am exaggerating , but still.)

I am also wondering what sport has ever benefited from outsiders doing things differently to make (huge) improvements?

The improvements in bike technology seems to have come from inside the sport (look at Sais' time trial bike collection on ebay. Some weird looking bikes there; not for lack of trying). Training with HR and with Watts came from insiders. Even ricecakes and beetroot juice came from the inside...

The disgraced cycling coaches who went to Kenya to "train" Kenyan runners, did they really do something differently from running coaches who "trained" their runners?

Lastly, at Sky, who are the new people who look at things differently, and what have they given us?

 

[therhodeo]

Woops, I meant 20 lbs (9 kg) sorry.

I believe 11kg is the number I've heard. 82kg to 71kg. Either way where did he lose it?

 

[Bala Verde]

Wiggins on Garmin

He was so thin there, he had to wear 2 pairs of socks just to stuff his shoes enough that they wouldn't slip off on the cobbles...

 

[ggusta]

This ...

The bolded shows rational thinking. It's not a 'hate' on Wiggins and Sky, it's that that the whole thing is so over the top it's a farce. USPS v.2 is very accurate.

Yes. The 'Eyes of doping' now are fixated on AC. 14 years ago...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Tour_de_France. This opened the door for others to enter through the back door: (Sky-crodose, USPSEPO) while openly boasting about taking on the mantle of legitimacy. If you're gonna lie, tell a big one, I guess. It's still a lie.

These climbing and TT performances...I don't think AC could even keep up. I think they are doped to the gills.

Wiggins and Froome's climbing reminded me of Rasmussen's TT in 2007. Am I to believe them or my own lyin' eyes?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...chael-Rasmussen-digs-deep-to-retain-lead.html

 

[royalpig180]

Isn't it the leap on towards 2009 that is supicious..? After 2009 we've been quite used to see a Wiggins winning stuff.

I don't think 2009 was all that suspicious. Wiggins was on Garmin, an outspokenly anti-doping organization, and had just begun to focus on the road rather than track. As of August 2008, he's still the Wiggins who weighs 77kg and is winning gold in the team pursuit in Beijing. A year on, he has a breakout GC performance in an easy tour that was raced easy, with the TTT among the defining days. Yes, this was truly a breakthrough, but I don't see why it'd be impossible for him to lose weight, focus on road racing, and become a new type of rider. It's the improvement from being a mediocre climber in 2009 to one of the 3 best climbers in this tour (albeit a tour lacking several of the world's best climbers) that's a little hard to believe, while maintaining his TT prowess.

Can anyone find his weight at the time of the 2009 tour? According to the Sky website, he's at 69 kg this year.

 

[Dalakhani]

They just came into road racing and arrived with ideas from outside of road racing? Really? Did Sean Yates provide those ideas? What ideas specifically?

How on earth would I know?

I don't work for Sky. If the ideas were obvious, they'd already be in use across the peloton.

I'm making the point that breakthroughs often come from people from other fields.

Sky came into road racing with the intention of innovating.

Here's an article from late 2010 to back this up:

Confidence was another thing which, according to Yates, dwindled as the 2010 season wore on. And as that seeped away, so, said Brailsford, did their faith in some of the innovations that, a year ago, many imagined would propel them to victories and plaudits galore.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brailsford-sky-must-avoid-isolated-and-robotic-approach

If they threw out the innovations that didn't work, but kept trying to find innovations that would give them an advantage, then, IMO, that makes them the team most likely to discover such an advantage.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Square-pedaller]

'Looking at things differently' fits with a general pattern of setting up a background against which performances don't seem so bizarre.

After the stage to La Plache des Belles Filles, I heard an interview with Wiggins in which he said he's not a TTer any more, he's a climber. 24 hours later in another interview, he said that he was hoping to do well today because TTing is his speciality.

 

[Normandy]

I think all he was saying was that the 2 podium celebrations were similar and they were. Nothing more. I understand what he meant.

Just watched the recording of today. I knew the results and comments before watching but I was still amazed at how EurosportUK insulted the intelligence of the viewers. That is Harmon and Kelly commentationg and the British muppets in the studio.

It was all how amazing Sky were, no questioning of the results. To add insult to injury, they then said that while all the British papers will be praising Wiggins and Froome (how do they know as Murdoch only owns 75% of newspapers) and that the French will be unhappy. Why only the French? They were so patronising and smug it was untrue. I am embarrassed to be British.

There was no mention of the doping allegations against Sky, no reasoned argument, no discussion, they blanked everything out.

 

[richtea]

As for Wiggins, he looks very suspisious, but I wont call him as a doper yet, but he sure looks like one, he peaked all season long and from his crazy transformation he didnt get any weakness ?? you believe that ?...

It's interesting how being good all season long and irregular peaks in performance are both signs of doping.

 

[Falken]

W ... T ... F?

How can you actually state with a straight face that Wiggo 2009 is anything close to Wiggo now. That itself is a huge leap. Don't be a f*cking tool.

Stop being lazy, go back and read his results in the ITT and mountain stages. He had one weak day where he lost time, stage 17: 3 minutes to the Schleckbrothers and Contador. Other than that he timetrialed well and climbed quiet good. His timetrialing has improved, yes, but not with a huge leap, he was a strong timetrialier in 2009 also. If he will climb much better this year than in 2009 remains to be seen, we haven't hit the alps and the pyrenees yet. And don't forget in 2009 the schleck-brothers were strong as hell and so was Contador, they aren't riding this year, so question is who can really put Wiggins in deep water. I believe Evans and JVDB are the guys, maybe Fränk if he cheers up.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2009/

 

[MartinGT]

sherwen today

"we all know Froome is a very good ITT"
"all the big guns are putting in good efforts" (This whilst froome was riding)

Serioulsy? Froom a VERY good ITT?

 

[Fergoose]

Have Wiggins taken any giant leaps since 2009 when he came 4th after Contador, Schleck and Armstrong? He both timetrialed and climbed well in 2009. And if one agrees that he didn't doped then, when he was with Garmin-Slipstream, I can't see how one can say that he must be doping now when he is with Sky. His slight progress could just as well be explained with a couple of years of hard dedication and building towards TdF.

Agreed. The 2009 Edition of Wiggins with Froome working for him would be a strong favourite for this TdF.

The key to team wide doping program is you can control the race. Watch them from Wednesday onwards. They'll sit on front of the peloton for 3 hours each flat stage and later in the week be pacing at 500w up the final climb.

They didn’t even manage that yesterday when they let 15-20+ riders go off the front including some dangerous individuals only 3-4 minutes behind on GC, so I’m not sure where your confidence is coming from that they’ll produce that form consistently for the rest of the race.

Wiggins was no tt specialist. He was in the sence that he could do jack **** on climbs but when was the last time you saw him win a tt in a gt. ( i remember winning giro 9k tt by 1s when it was his early season aim). Even in prologues which he would specialise in, he was getting his *** handed to him and in anything over 20k he would struggle to make the podium.

I'm no expert, but the skills and abilities required for a flat ITT appear to be very comparable to that required for individual pursuit of 50+ minutes. The ability to operate near your power threshhold and hold it consistently for long periods of time to measure your effort without miscalculating and dipping into the red. I don’t have a knowledge of the pursuit world to give lots of comparisons but Chris Boardman showed this with Olympic and World gold for individual pursuit followed by his very close assaults on the world hour record - when he'd decided to alter his training and focus on the longer duration. Therefore, people should not be surprised about Wiggins’ abilities to compete in that. Of course, failure to acknowledge an out of form, past his best Cancellara and an injured Tony Martin with a flat tyre for 90% of the course exaggerate Wiggins’ achievement today.

How can you actually state with a straight face that Wiggo 2009 is anything close to Wiggo now. That itself is a huge leap. Don't be a f*cking tool.

In the 2009 TdF Wiggins bet Evans, Nibali, Menchov, VdB, Frank Schleck, Kloden & Zubeldia: or, to put it another way, he bet every major competitor he has in the 2012 TdF. And this was on a course that suited him less than the 2012 edition due to less ITT miles. And you would be well served to heed your own advice incase someone sticks a price tag on you and places you on a shelf in a hardware store.

 

[MartinGT]

It's interesting how being good all season long and irregular peaks in performance are both signs of doping.

Would you say that off Gilbert last season, or Boonen earlier this season?

Im just saying, trying to balance it up. Gilbert had a stormer last season. OIff the boil now.

Difference, Boonen & Gilbert dont ride long tours like Wiggo (well, as a contender if you know what I mean)

 

[BroDeal]

Wiggins on Garmin

Without dirt and lens distortion.

 

[Maxiton]

Wiggins on Garmin

Yes. The 'Eyes of doping' now are fixated on AC. 14 years ago...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Tour_de_France. This opened the door for others to enter through the back door: (Sky-crodose, USPSEPO) while openly boasting about taking on the mantle of legitimacy. If you're gonna lie, tell a big one, I guess. It's still a lie.

These climbing and TT performances...I don't think AC could even keep up. I think they are doped to the gills.

Wiggins and Froome's climbing reminded me of Rasmussen's TT in 2007. Am I to believe them or my own lyin' eyes?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...chael-Rasmussen-digs-deep-to-retain-lead.html

Just watched the recording of today. I knew the results and comments before watching but I was still amazed at how EurosportUK insulted the intelligence of the viewers. That is Harmon and Kelly commentationg and the British muppets in the studio.

It was all how amazing Sky were, no questioning of the results. To add insult to injury, they then said that while all the British papers will be praising Wiggins and Froome (how do they know as Murdoch only owns 75% of newspapers) and that the French will be unhappy. Why only the French? They were so patronising and smug it was untrue. I am embarrassed to be British.

There was no mention of the doping allegations against Sky, no reasoned argument, no discussion, they blanked everything out.

It isn't just Harmon and Kelly, and other paid commentators. Here is what Mr. Clean had to say on Twitter:

@Vaughters TJVG from our Junior team, Wiggo from our pro team.I'm good at picking 'em... Not very good at being able to afford them once they kick ***!

Really begs the question, doesn't it? To you and me the Wiggins/Froome performances are laughable - talk about a mockery! - but Vaughters can't cheer enough.