Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JMBeaushrimp]

Hol y f*ck Joe, did you even glance at the 1,740 posts in this thread before asking this question? Or are you being sarcastic? Folks are obviously wondering ...

Man! That made me laugh!

 

[Cancellator]

Hey, I'm not going to insist on things that have already been debated many pages ago. What stands out to me most is this:

From a body-type point of view, how can it be possible for the same two guys (W and F) to be BOTH the best climbers in the Tour (when it matters) AND the best TTers? This just goes against everything I knew about cycling specialities: how climbers need to be light and how extra muscle mass helps on the flat portions of a TT. These things don't really go hand in hand. Of course, we have the great GC men like Contador, but it's not like he wins his TTs by a minute - he just gets a good placing compared to his rivals.

And, if you think about it, many of the cyclists who are/were both excellent climbers and TTers are plagued by doping suspicions.

What I'm saying is that Sky are making the specialists look silly. Someone like Scarponi, a climber, is dropped like a rock, while Cancellara is murdered in the TT by people 12 kgs lighter than him, even on the flat bits!

Yes, they might all not be in form. But then, is everyone besides the Sky people out of shape? In the Tour? Maybe they should get new jobs.

Yes, they did have their prep disrupted, but how about Froome? From the reports about his disease it sounds like he barely got any training at all! Then it conveniently disappears. Maybe he is that good. Or maybe there is something fishy going on.

 

[ultimobici]

What are you talking about, Wiggins had never put 2 minutes into Nibali before this year, now he's done it twice.

Wiggins has never won a long TT, now he wins the for fun. Are you saying that he was overweight when he was the world best pursuit rider?

Martin was 24 , it's natural that he improves, Wiggins is 32 and was a time trial world champ (indoors) ten years ago. IT is entirely unexpected that he goes from good to world beating over one winter.

So this didn't happen? Maybe not 2 minutes, but a recently returned from injury Wiggins took over a minute from Nibali, despite overcooking his TT.

1 Tony Martin (Ger) HTC-Highroad 0:55:54
2 Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:00:59
3 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:01:22
4 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Leopard Trek 0:01:27
5 Taylor Phinney (USA) BMC Racing Team 0:01:33
6 Jakob Fuglsang (Den) Leopard Trek 0:01:37
7 Tiago Machado (Por) Team RadioShack 0:01:54
8 Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Team RadioShack 0:01:56
9 Luis Leon Sanchez Gil (Spa) Rabobank Cycling Team 0:02:02
10 Maxime Monfort (Bel) Leopard Trek 0:02:06
11 Fredrik Kessiakoff (Swe) Pro Team Astana 0:02:18
12 Nelson Oliveira (Spa) Team RadioShack 0:02:19
13 Denis Menchov (Rus) Geox-TMC
14 Stuart O'Grady (Aus) Leopard Trek 0:02:20
15 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:02:24
16 Andrew Talansky (USA) Team Garmin-Cervelo 0:02:28
17 Markel Irizar Aranburu (Spa) Team RadioShack 0:02:51
18 Dimitri Champion (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 0:02:52
19 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Katusha Team 0:02:53
20 Steven Kruijswijk (Ned) Rabobank Cycling Team 0:02:57

WIggins background is in pursuiting. This is a discipline that gave us Boardman who was a TT specialist once he turned to the road. That he was able to compete clean to the level he did in the mid 90's speaks volumes.

 

[Maxiton]

the mood instability and emotional fragility on display by Wiggo this year can sometimes be a by-product of PED-use, especially testosterone, EPO, Hgh, corticosteroids and blood transfusions..

That's quite a laundry list. I feel moody and unstable just reading it. But I'm absolutely tearing up this climb!

 

[maxmartin]

Does anyone else worry that there might be some doping going on at SKY? The way the team emulated USPS during the height of the Armstrong era might be random, or it could be cause for concern. I don't think any team would be so crazy as to implement a team-wide program of charging in 2012, but it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for an clique to have formed w/in the team that handled business outside of official channels.

you are late to the party

 

[wattage]

The only question is will Sky tone it down today and not make it so obvious. I'm guessing not. Lot of people will be puking today at the clinic.

 

[TubularBills]

you are late to the party

 

[filipo]

Not saying he doesn't have a good background, but the truth about science (pretty much any science) is that two (or more) experts can look at the same data and draw different conclusions.

One trots out for the prosecution, one for the defense, which is right ?

On top of that sometimes the scientists have their own agendas to promote
See climate change for a great example.

Absolute, total, 100% bull****. My spidey-sense tells me you're not a scientist, amiright?

 

[PedalPusher]

BTW: the mood instability and emotional fragility on display by Wiggo this year can sometimes be a by-product of PED-use, especially testosterone, EPO, Hgh, corticosteroids and blood transfusions...

That explains Evans over the years....."Don't touch me"!

 

[badboygolf16v]

WIggins background is in pursuiting. This is a discipline that gave us Boardman who was a TT specialist once he turned to the road. That he was able to compete clean to the level he did in the mid 90's speaks volumes.

I used to be a Wiggins fan. As much as I'm a fan of any cyclist. In 2009 I made the comparison with Boardman and used that as evidence enough to give Bradley the benefit of the doubt. Even though Boardman came fifth nearly six minutes down overall in the '96 Dauphine it all seemed reasonably plausible given the biopassport.

Since then he's done nothing to inspire my confidence, everything he does erodes it, to the point now that I have none left.

We now know that in 2009, one Garmin rider was working with Del Moral. In whatever capacity we don't really know. We don't know if other riders were referred by Whitey but my (healthy suspicions/hate-filled paranoia)* leads me to think that others may have.

*delete as appropriate

 

[badboygolf16v]

Absolute, total, 100% bull****. My spidey-sense tells me you're not a scientist, amiright?

There is merit to the argument presented by the OP you're referring to.

 

[euanli]

I believe there is an article in the Times today about Geert.

 

[Ferminal]

The only question is will Sky tone it down today and not make it so obvious. I'm guessing not. Lot of people will be puking today at the clinic.

Well I hope they don't tone it down, race will be a snore otherwise.

 

[Wergeland]

I just think that Sky is a two year ahead the rest of the teams when it comes to professionalism, traning and nutritiion. Believe me, there was plenty to gain here. For so long cyclists have had months off training, som even bing drinking, eating wrong etc. Cyling have been way behind other endurance sports.

Cyclingtraining have been extremely traditional. Up untill now. Give it two-three years and the other teams will have closed the gap.

And remember, GB have put millions and millions into sports science for the past couple of years preparing for the olympics. Team Sky is apart of that research and they are gaining a lot from it.

Others have to learn. And they will.

Does anyone else worry that there might be some doping going on at SKY? The way the team emulated USPS during the height of the Armstrong era might be random, or it could be cause for concern. I don't think any team would be so crazy as to implement a team-wide program of charging in 2012, but it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for an clique to have formed w/in the team that handled business outside of official channels.

All I know is it's worrying to see a guy and his henchmen begin to dominate the Tour in the manner of Armstrong.

Hope that it's just coincidence...

Note: I'm fully aware that 1/3 of a Tour doesn't equal 7 Tours won, but you know what I mean - seeing those Sky boys together whilst the others were isolated and swinging, pulling pins...it immediately did not compute and caused flashbacks. The only thing missing was Cav' taking 5-10km pulls on the front...

 

[Cavalier]

I just think that Sky is a two year ahead the rest of the teams when it comes to professionalism, traning and nutritiion. Believe me, there was plenty to gain here. For so long cyclists have had months off training, som even bing drinking, eating wrong etc. Cyling have been way behind other endurance sports.

Sorry, but that's a massive load of rubbish. It's not like cycling has been ignoring the mountains of research going on in this area and turning a blind eye to it, eating junk food and drinking copious amounts of alcohol as you're trying to infer.
Sky hasn't suddenly discovered something new that cyclists all over the world were ignoring while athletes everywhere else were embracing it. That's a massively ignorant viewpoint, and you're asserting that the vast majority of cyclists are basically lazy and uninterested in winning things by stating that, which is utterly absurd of any sportsman in any discipline at the elite level.

 

[Lanark]

Sorry, but that's a massive load of rubbish. It's not like cycling has been ignoring the mountains of research going on in this area and turning a blind eye to it, eating junk food and drinking copious amounts of alcohol as you're trying to infer.
Sky hasn't suddenly discovered something new that cyclists all over the world were ignoring while athletes everywhere else were embracing it. That's a massively ignorant viewpoint, and you're asserting that the vast majority of cyclists are basically lazy and uninterested in winning things by stating that, which is utterly absurd of any sportsman in any discipline at the elite level.

It's not even that. What his position means is that two guys who before respectively 2009 and 2011 showed absolutely no talent in stage racing can improve so much by these vague improvements in training and diets that they now can beat riders who did show a lot of stage racing talent from a young age and are almost certainly doping (Nibali, Menchov).

It requires such a huge leap of logic to think they aren't doping. As TheHog said, if they don't then this is by far the most impressive clean result in the history of modern cycling. And that by a bunch of guys that didn't show a modicum of talent in that discipline.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I just think that Sky is a two year ahead the rest of the teams when it comes to professionalism, traning and nutritiion. Believe me, there was plenty to gain here. For so long cyclists have had months off training, som even bing drinking, eating wrong etc. Cyling have been way behind other endurance sports.

Cyclingtraining have been extremely traditional. Up untill now. Give it two-three years and the other teams will have closed the gap.

And remember, GB have put millions and millions into sports science for the past couple of years preparing for the olympics. Team Sky is apart of that research and they are gaining a lot from it.

Others have to learn. And they will.

They must be, they have made this bloke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGpv0xn0E8

from 7.20 onwards

into this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ubgcl7e3lw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5GxKr1XLtk

To all the cynics, I'm sorry for you, ... I'm sorry you can't believe in miracles. This is a great sport and hard work, professionalism, traning and nutritiion wins it.

 

[Marco Pantani]

sports science

Mh.......that's one way to call it.

 

[euanli]

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-a...ses-doctor-dilemma-we-are-100-per-cent-clean/

 

[Franklin]

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-a...ses-doctor-dilemma-we-are-100-per-cent-clean/

And there we finally have an answer and a decent one at that. I still think it's farfetched claim that they couldn't find someone else and I also assume there are quite a few doctors with experience with heat, but I can follow their reasoning.

Sky now adress the potty-mouthed insults, open up the media ban (let these questions be handled not by the management, not the stressed out riders), keep your autumn open house and I'm actually open to cheering for you guys.

And... for now I'm completely out of the pile-up even if you bum-rush the peloton in the next stages (unless the numbers go through anything plausible^^)

 

[biker jk]

And there we finally have an answer and a decent one at that. I still think it's farfetched claim that they couldn't find someone else and I also assume there are quite a few doctors with experience with heat, but I can follow their reasoning.

If you're not being sarcastic then you're very gullible. Of all the medicos they could have hired they chose Leinders.

 

[hrotha]

I find this not only far-fetched, but also disgusting, and very insulting to their medical staff at the time:

But Brailsford did decide the team should hire British medical staff who had not worked inside professional cycling before.

However, the harrowing experience at the 2010 Vuelta a Espana led to a rethink of that medical policy.

Txema Gonzalez, one of the team’s carers, contracted a bacterial infection which entered the bloodstream. The toxins damaged his organs and he went into septic shock. The Spaniard, who was 43, died in hospital.

At the same time, the riders were struck with a stomach bug. In heat approaching 40 degrees, some of them were vomiting on the road. For a worrying 12-hour period they thought they had the same virus as Gonzalez. Team Sky’s Dr Steve Peters, the head of the medical operation at the time, confirmed that the bacterial infection that killed Gonzalez was nothing to do with the virus that affected the riders.

When Gonzalez was taken to hospital, Brailsford and another of Team Sky’s doctors, Dr Richard Freeman, flew from Liverpool to Spain. When they landed, Brailsford switched on his phone to the news Gonzalez had died.

“When someone dies on your team and you feel you’re putting riders at risk… for all we knew the riders could have had the same thing.

“We sat down and realised that as a group of people we did not know enough about looking after people in extreme heat, with extreme fatigue. We were making calls like ‘no, on you go mate’.”

"We had to hire doctors with dodgy pasts because LIVES WERE AT STAKE. Remember Txema? Now stop asking questions, you should feel TERRIBLE for bringing this up now"

 

[Benotti69]

I find this not only far-fetched, but also disgusting, and very insulting to their medical staff at the time:

"We had to hire doctors with dodgy pasts because LIVES WERE AT STAKE. Remember Txema? Now stop asking questions, you should feel TERRIBLE for bringing this up now"

it is disgusting to use the death of someone as justification for hiring someone like Leinders

 

[Ferminal]

I just think that Sky is a two year ahead the rest of the teams when it comes to professionalism, traning and nutritiion. Believe me, there was plenty to gain here. For so long cyclists have had months off training, som even bing drinking, eating wrong etc. Cyling have been way behind other endurance sports.

That is pretty insulting to Slipstream.

 

[Moller]

And there we finally have an answer and a decent one at that. I still think it's farfetched claim that they couldn't find someone else and I also assume there are quite a few doctors with experience with heat, but I can follow their reasoning.

Sky now adress the potty-mouthed insults, open up the media ban (let these questions be handled not by the management, not the stressed out riders), keep your autumn open house and I'm actually open to cheering for you guys.

And... for now I'm completely out of the pile-up even if you bum-rush the peloton in the next stages (unless the numbers go through anything plausible^^)

They wanted him to deal with extremes of heat and fatigue, but they didn't take him to the Tour? Strange that. More like they wanted to keep him out of public view.