Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Cerberus]

Yes, but he's saying he values them more than winning if it means he has to dope to do so. Not everybody makes the same choice.

Not everybody makes the same choice, but everybody says they make the same choice.

 

[Adamastor]

Wiggins

I might be naive, but I do believe Wiggins is clean now. In 15 years of big doping sh.t, he is the first leader to speak out as clearly against doping.

But maybe I just WANT to believe ;o)

Contador wasn't as explicit, Schleck's weren't either...He is not only saying he is clean, he is actually throwing sh.t at those who did dope in front of him (Vino and Kash).

Haha, is Richard Virenque still commentating on French Eurosport? He will be a happy bunny.

Hog, you were defending Virenque, but I have been listening to that guy's comments regarding drugs, and he is has not changed a bit. He still feels he was treated unfairly by everybody.

 

[Cerberus]

The difference is cultural. You only have to be linked with drugs in the UK and that's it. Dwain Chambers will never be accepted by the general sporting public, even Christine Ohorogou (who had a ban for whereabouts) has so much less support than an Olympic Champion in athletics would normally get. If Wiggins got caught, every report about him for the rest of his life from the British press would start with something that clarifies him as a former doper, whatever the story was about.

In Spain and plenty of other places, dopers are more or less always welcomed back by the public and are usually seen as victims of the system rather than the cheats that they actually are.

Ah, I guess that's why David Millar can't find a squad to ride on and is stuck doing Local crits in Birmingham.

 

[Grand Tourist]

We are going to have our opinions and that's fine - in fact it what makes this kind of conversation important.

AND there are important differences in attitudes across different cultures ... it's not about better or worse ... but it is important if people really want to undertand motivations.

T

Not so sure.

Cyclists are a pretty cosmopolitan bunch. British 'exceptionalism' strikes me as a ludicrous 'defence'.

 

[badboygolf16v]

I would agree. On its own it's a nicely written piece.

I knew this kind of statement would have to come from Brad because I saw it with Armstrong. He used the 'never tested positive' line until the pressure from the media became too much and he stepped over the line into the 'I'm clean' lie.

Whether you believe Brad now is a matter of personal opinion. If he's clean then great, chapeau Brad...

However, my personal feeling at the moment is that it's shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Where have these statements been for the last few years?

Unless Brad gets popped or Team Sky busted we will never know for sure.

 

[djlovesyou]

Ah, I guess that's why David Millar can't find a squad to ride on and is stuck doing Local crits in Birmingham.

Yeah, my mistake. I completely forgot it was the public and the press that decide whether a rider can get a contract with a team or not. Silly me.

 

[the big ring]

The difference is cultural. You only have to be linked with drugs in the UK and that's it. Dwain Chambers will never be accepted by the general sporting public, even Christine Ohorogou (who had a ban for whereabouts) has so much less support than an Olympic Champion in athletics would normally get. If Wiggins got caught, every report about him for the rest of his life from the British press would start with something that clarifies him as a former doper, whatever the story was about.

David Millar made the Olympic road team.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/millar-selected-for-team-gb-olympic-road-race-team

 

[Bonkstrong]

Ah, I guess that's why David Millar can't find a squad to ride on and is stuck doing Local crits in Birmingham.

No, but that is why he's loathed by many British people inside and outside of cycling. For the most part they don't know who he is, who he rides for, what his specialities are. But they do know he's a drugs cheat, plain and simple. It's a tag you won't shake easily in the UK.


(Fwiw, I love Millar and can't wait to see him in the Olympics!)

 

[Lanark]

I don't understand, this counts for any other cyclist right?

Of course. It's a weak attempt to pander to the nationalist sentiments of his fellow countrymen (what most Guardian-readers will be).

He doesn't talk about all that he could gain from doping. Before the 2009 Tour he was a thoroughly mediocre rider. The last three years he probably made 2 million more than he would have on his previous salary. Sure, there are risks, but tremendous gains as well.

 

[Cerberus]

Yeah, my mistake. I completely forgot it was the public and the press that decide whether a rider can get a contract with a team or not. Silly me.

OK I'll grant you that I did spin that a bit, what you said was that he would be vilified and mentioned as an ex-doper in every article by the British press. So what I meant was:

I guess that's why this BBC article vilifies him and mentions he's a proven doper: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/18834827 (note this was the first article I found, I didn't dig around).

ETA: I took a look at the Guardians article to, and also no mention of doping: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/13/tour-de-france-2012-stage-12

 

[djlovesyou]

David Millar made the Olympic road team.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/millar-selected-for-team-gb-olympic-road-race-team

Dwain Chambers and Christine Ohorogou made the British Olympic team. So what?

My standpoint is that getting caught for doping as a Brit carries a far worse penalty than getting caught for doping as a Spaniard.

You can keep coming at me with interesting facts about team selection all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the above is very true.

 

[thehog]

Dwain Chambers and Christine Ohorogou made the British Olympic team. So what?

My standpoint is that getting caught for doping as a Brit carries a far worse penalty than getting caught for doping as a Spaniard.

You can keep coming at me with interesting facts about team selection all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the above is very true.

So Italy banning its athletes from Olympics and World Championships is not as hard line as Britain?

Give me a break.

 

[LastDamnation]

David Millar made the Olympic road team.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/millar-selected-for-team-gb-olympic-road-race-team

This is because CAS said that the BOA's stance on lifetime bans for drugs cheats "violate world doping code".

 

[131313]

these comments are downright comical to me, since the general thought regarding Armstrong, Hamilton and Landis was that 'Americans won't dope'. They're more educated than that, and they understand the health consequences. They didn't grow up in the culture of doping like those Europeans. Et cetera. I've heard the same regarding Canadian athletes as well.

You'll have to apologize if I find this a disturbingly weak argument. Yes, the ramifications seem to be higher for a North American or British athlete than one from a country where doping seems to be generally accepted (I'm talking about you, Spain). But a certain number of athletes are still going to cheat, particularly if they think they can get away with it.

 

[Bonkstrong]

Of course. It's a weak attempt to pander to the nationalist sentiments of his fellow countrymen (what most Guardian-readers will be).

He doesn't talk about all that he could gain from doping. Before the 2009 Tour he was a thoroughly mediocre rider. The last three years he probably made 2 million more than he would have on his previous salary. Sure, there are risks, but tremendous gains as well.

A thoroughly mediocre 14 time Olympic medalist.

All he's done in 4 years in closed a small gap in his TTing ability and upped his climbing ability to compete on par with some decent climbers at a sustained high tempo

All we've seen him do in this tour is putt time into people on the Flat TT stages and minimize his losses in the mountains. He's been flanked by a team who's one single objective all season has been to motor-pace Wiggins up the hills.

The competition are weak, he can't keep up with Nibali on is own and hasn't got the legs to attack him and ride away from the peleton if the Cannondale team were setting the pace like what happened yesterday when Nibali attacked the Sky train.

Evans has blown, Nibs hasn't got the team, who else is a serious threat right now. The way it's panned out has meant that he hasn't had to make "PED-worthy leaps in performance" to achieve what he has at the Tour this year.

Do I think Bradley Wiggins is clean? - Yes
Do I think Sky are clean - Yes
Am I giving Chris Froome the benefit of doubt - Yes

 

[the big ring]

This is because CAS said that the BOA's stance on lifetime bans for drugs cheats "violate world doping code".

No. It's because he was chosen by British Cycling Federation (or whoever it is that chooses the road team). A very different thing altogether. CAS do not choose Olympics teams for nations.

 

[LastDamnation]

No. It's because he was chosen by British Cycling Federation (or whoever it is that chooses the road team). A very different thing altogether. CAS do not choose Olympics teams for nations.

My point was that until very recently he wouldn't have been eligible, and that that decision was made by a non-British organisation.

 

[taiwan]

Come on, "on a par with some decent climbers"? They dropped Evans and Franck Schleck yesterday.

 

[thehog]

Come on, "on a par with some decent climbers"? They dropped Evans and Franck Schleck yesterday.

Contador was watching the stage and texting "Pepe" at the same time.

"Pepe esta prohibición la USADA. ¿Quiere decir que todavía me puede proporcionar el VROOM?"

 

[Bonkstrong]

My point was that until very recently he wouldn't have been eligible, and that that decision was made by a non-British organisation.

You've lost me, are you saying it was a non-British organisation that banned him or let him compete?

As far as I'm aware the BOA banned him for life but the BCF wanted him to race and it was CAS that forced the BOA to change the unlawful bylaw and lifted the ban

(I realise the confusion is my own fault )

 

[zapata]

All countries are different. Generally speaking the great British public looks on dopers and sporting cheaters pretty poorly so theres a lot to lose. It comes down to a cost-benefit analysis at the end of the day. What are the consequences of getting caught?

Dwain Chambers is probably the highest profile case in recent years and he'll have suffered heavily financially and his reputation because of it.

I look on in wonder at the way confirmed cheats in other countries are "rehabilitated". In Spain Contador, Valverde have been barely affected, Museeuw is still a legend in Belgium, Virenque comes out smelling of roses in France and Pantani is revered in Italy. That just wouldn't happen here.

However we have **** food, get horribly drunk all the time and have a disgusting chav underclass that has no respect for itself or anyone else. And it rains.

(And PS, I'm looking on at Sky in wonder as well. I want to believe but they're making it very tough. As for Wiggins, actions, as ever, speak louder than words. Lets have some transparency. Explain why you and Froome don't just looks like contenders but world beaters).

Wow, that's revolting. Hope they torch your mansion soon.

 

[Grand Tourist]

A thoroughly mediocre 14 time Olympic medalist.

All he's done in 4 years in closed a small gap in his TTing ability and upped his climbing ability to compete on par with some decent climbers at a sustained high tempo

All we've seen him do in this tour is putt time into people on the Flat TT stages and minimize his losses in the mountains. He's been flanked by a team who's one single objective all season has been to motor-pace Wiggins up the hills.

The competition are weak, he can't keep up with Nibali on is own and hasn't got the legs to attack him and ride away from the peleton if the Cannondale team were setting the pace like what happened yesterday when Nibali attacked the Sky train.

Evans has blown, Nibs hasn't got the team, who else is a serious threat right now. The way it's panned out has meant that he hasn't had to make "PED-worthy leaps in performance" to achieve what he has at the Tour this year.

Do I think Bradley Wiggins is clean? - Yes
Do I think Sky are clean - Yes
Am I giving Chris Froome the benefit of doubt - Yes

Olympics, Slympics

Does anyone really care about trinkets like Olympic track medals?

The path to fame & riches lies on the roads of Europe

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I find it amazing that, after the last, 20 years or so, especially since 1999, people still think that Sky are doing this clean.

They have the 1-2 positions on GC in the TdF. They have absolutely dominated the race, putting huge time into many previous GT champions using guys who have never won a single one. Have we seen this kind of stuff before? Vino and Kash at the Vuelta come to mind. Contador and Leipheimer. Ricco and Piepoli.

Apparently some people weren't around during the Postal era. Cycling is at the point where it is conceivable and possible that it could take a turn for the cleaner side, but Sky appear to be dragging cycling back to the "professional" era.

 

[Parrot23]

Come on, "on a par with some decent climbers"? They dropped Evans and Franck Schleck yesterday.

Taiwan, I also thought Van Garderen and Pinot were a blast. Showed great form. Menchov too....

 

[Bonkstrong]

Come on, "on a par with some decent climbers"? They dropped Evans and Franck Schleck yesterday.

Evans attacked and blew and was outlasted by TJVG, or did you miss that? He had a terrible day, nothing more to it. He's had bad days before with the same result - that doesn't make the Sky lot superior climbers over a 3 week period.

And Schleck is obviously in prime climbing form...


So are we saying that a PED'd up sky team blew a Top-form Evans to bits, or did a team in great form crack someone on a bad day?