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Team Visma LAB

Page 72 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
I'm saying Roglič was a top rider before Jumbo was a top team.

It doesn't mean anything in terms of clinical stuff, it just means Jumbo were not at the top of the food chain at a time when Rog's breakthrough as a top rider was happening.

So in response to people who assume Rog will lose a level outside Jumbo, I sincerely doubt it. Just as if he'd signed for Bahrain back in 2019 when they wanted him, I doubt he'd have been a lesser rider at that team. Don't get me wrong, i.e. Jumbo was good for Rog up until a point but those days are long gone. He's an afterthought there now & they really didn't know what to do with him this season beyond sending him to the Giro.

He'll be a hit at Bora. Just as Hindley was a hit for them after leaving DSM.
I remember now that before Jonas everyone talked about Slovenia as the doping "center" because it was Rog and Pog simultaneously. So maybe he knows enough. Funny he's bringing the coach with him. Weren't he one of those people who disagree on Wout GC GT potential? 🤔
 
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On "oil backed teams", it helps to check rather than make assumptions. Knowing team budgets is central to discussing the merits of the merger or Roglic leaving.
  • Jumbo-Visma, Ineos and UAE's annual budgets are estimated to be in the vicinity of €50 million to €60 million. So being an oil backed team isn't so advantageous to UAE.
  • Quickstep's budget is ~€25 million to €30 million
  • Bora also has an annual budget of ~€25 million to €30 million
  • For a benchmark comparison, Manchester United's budget was estimated to be €243m in 2022/23
As the story states, some teams may have additional sources of funding or sponsorships that are not reflected in these budgets.

Source:

So according to these figures, Jumbo are not "poverty stricken" and compare similarly to the other big two teams. Jumbo's budget ranking is consistent with their performances since 2020. According to the link the oil backed team of UAE only have an extra €5 million (10%) to play with which is line ball with the other oil backed team Ineos - poverty stricken? Quickstep are ranked 5th with ~€20 million less to spend than Jumbo-Visma.

The overexaggerated sob story that Jumbo doesn't have much money compared to Ineos and UAE always made my eyes roll, but I guess it fits their narrative of the heroic underdogs.

Salaries may also depend on how the sponsors want the budged to be used? UAE was always a joke for how they used to overpay underperforming cyclists. Before Pogi they were pretty terrible, but the money kept coming, because those numbers are crumbles for the Emirates, I bet they remember that they own a cycling team only around July.
 
despite everything (Plugge both @ Jumbo and @ AIGCP, Jumbo winning EVERYTHING, Hessmann positive, Jumbo poaching Soudal) he's fùcking lucky he's Dutch in a Dutch team. if he were a Brit in a British team, the anger would be a hurricane, the old twitter/forum fighters would wake up after 3 years!
Different climate or faster media? Jumbo success is 2 years old and Ineos was dominating for a longer time? I think Jumbo/Plugge hate is on its way.
 
Different climate or faster media? Jumbo success is 2 years old and Ineos was dominating for a longer time? I think Jumbo/Plugge hate is on its way.

I fear Netserk and Hrotha will bash me :D but the core of the twitter/forum haters had some anti-Brit scent. many of them were Kimmage fans. haven't heard a word from Kimmage despite the mental season Jumbo is having. I thought the guy was antidoping.
maybe Plugge's hate it's on its way. but judging by the reaction to Hessman positive I think people are still cool, the knives are not out and they won't come out.
I hopd for Vinge to win the Vuelta and snatch it from Kuss, that could have helped to anger some

ps. I apologise, you know me, I'm a Sky fan/troll
 
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Dumoulin let the secret out to Jumbo's recent success. They all switched from training without carbs to training with carbs, then they started winning! Also says when he finished his career with Jumbo he had the testosterone level of a young girl which was surprising.
 
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Dumoulin let the secret out to Jumbo's recent success. They all switched from training without carbs to training with carbs, then they started winning! Also says when he finished his career with Jumbo he had the testosterone level of a young girl which was surprising.
Is competing in elite sport known to affect T levels one way or the other? I guess cycling and weight control could have negative effects.
 
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Different climate or faster media? Jumbo success is 2 years old and Ineos was dominating for a longer time? I think Jumbo/Plugge hate is on its way.
Jumbo success started in 2020 - so we are well past three years now. I am surprised dislike of Jumbo isn’t more widespread by now. I dislike them every bit as much as I did Skyneos. This Plugge guy seems a bit like Dave Brailsford - has all the answers. I don’t like arrogant sportspeople or teams.
 
Is competing in elite sport known to affect T levels one way or the other? I guess cycling and weight control could have negative effects.
Would need someone to listen to the podcast the article is lifted from (in Dutch) to get what he was meaning / the context there. I think Dumo was suggesting all the training Jumbo had them doing without carbs and fat until a couple pf years ago was because it was thought to force the body to learn how to burn body fat instead of food so you kept light. But this training without carbs and fat has left him with depleted natural testosterone levels was my understanding and why he no longer could perform like he used to. Now Jumbo have switched to carb and fat loading in training the training is deeper and longer and so at the pointy end of the racing, they've been able to train for that effort. End of the day it makes sense, but not sure it really explains Jumbo's step up the last two seasons as Dumoulin believes.
 
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Would need someone to listen to the podcast the article is lifted from (in Dutch) to get what he was meaning / the context there. I think Dumo was suggesting all the training Jumbo had them doing without carbs and fat until a couple pf years ago was because it was thought to force the body to learn how to burn body fat instead of food so you kept light. But this training without carbs and fat has left him with depleted natural testosterone levels was my understanding and why he no longer could perform like he used to. Now Jumbo have switched to carb and fat loading in training the training is deeper and longer and so at the pointy end of the racing, they've been able to train for that effort. End of the day it makes sense, but not sure it really explains Jumbo's step up the last two seasons as Dumoulin believes.
Yeah, more fatigue and overtraining leads to lower Test levels.
 
Would need someone to listen to the podcast the article is lifted from (in Dutch) to get what he was meaning / the context there. I think Dumo was suggesting all the training Jumbo had them doing without carbs and fat until a couple pf years ago was because it was thought to force the body to learn how to burn body fat instead of food so you kept light. But this training without carbs and fat has left him with depleted natural testosterone levels was my understanding and why he no longer could perform like he used to. Now Jumbo have switched to carb and fat loading in training the training is deeper and longer and so at the pointy end of the racing, they've been able to train for that effort. End of the day it makes sense, but not sure it really explains Jumbo's step up the last two seasons as Dumoulin believes.
Dumoulin was on the podcast partially as ambassador of some food tracking app, so he was kind of selling his thing tbh. The part about fasted training to adapt the body to using fats is about an earlier time period, in the early part of his career. And he also says he didn't do those trainings most of the times.

Dumoulin said he would lose weight by basically cutting down all food types somewhat equally, so it wasn't any specific diet, it was just eating less of everything to lean down gradually. He started doing this after the 2015 Tour when he crashed out and let himself go afterwards and got too heavy, leading to him being lighter than ever for the Vuelta. At Sunweb they also experimented with low fiber food before mountain stages to fluctuate water weight, but they didn't get that down so well. He says in the 2017 Giro, when he shat himself he basically overate after Stelvio, and says he struggled with eating enough in the 3rd week which led to him getting weaker then. Also said at some point he just ate chips and haribo just to get the calories in and he was back to being good the next day. His downfall was most likely just complete burnout IMO. He's referenced a few times how much he needed to push to get to a level high enough to compete for GC. It's either that or like long COVID or something.

Dumo also said that when he was at Sunweb, other teams were doing more with food, and that when he went to Jumbo, they'd taken an extra step in how much they personalized the eating they needed to do.


At no point did Dumoulin really claim food is why Jumbo are so dominant, he just cites it as a big explanation why performances are so much higher these days than before, especially at the end of hard mountain stages. He wasn't really there for Jumbo propaganda, but more to sell this food tracking app and sell the importance of food intake.
 
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This season everyone considers Jumbo the strongest team around, after they won the three Grand Tours but I am pretty convinced that next year, their will take a bit of a hit.

Without Roglič, they won't be able to win all three Grand Tours in the same season and their chances in some shorter stage races and even hilly classics like Lombardia, Liège and Flèche will become smaller as Roglič was their leader for these races.

Sure, if Vingegård wins the Tour which is the most likely outcome their season will always be partly a success but the cobbled classics team will need to step up because, despite having probably the best team for these races, in the last three seasons they've won 0 monuments, compared to Pogačar's 5 or MVDP's, so Van Aert and to a lesser extent Laporte, Van Baarle and Kooij will be under a lot of pressure because there won't be a GT triplet to mask their lack of results.
Kuss takes Giro
Vinge takes Tour and Vuelta
 
Jumbo is finally getting down to the real serious marginal gains. They are employing a swim coach, Jacco Verhaeren. Straight from the Dave Brailsford playbook.


Verhaeren has not been directly implicated when it comes to doping (as far as I am aware), but he trained (and had a relationship with) Inge de Bruijn. Who is strongly suspected of foul play. This is from the Frankfurter Allgemeine, not the most sensationalist newspaper:

There was once a swimmer who was considered a super talent for years, but the coaches despaired of her. She let her talents lie dormant; she simply didn't make an international breakthrough. But one fine day, in the year of the Sydney Olympic Games, she suddenly became a dominant winner. She won gold medals and became a huge star. At the time, everyone was amazed at her late rise.

In her home country, the Netherlands, it was said that she had trained properly for the first time in her life and that she had finally reached her potential. Elsewhere, especially in Germany, her face and body were more likely to be associated with doping. They called her, a little maliciously, Ingo. There was never a positive doping test from Inge de Bruijn.

 
Jumbo is finally getting down to the real serious marginal gains. They are employing a swim coach, Jacco Verhaeren. Straight from the Dave Brailsford playbook.


Verhaeren has not been directly implicated when it comes to doping (as far as I am aware), but he trained (and had a relationship with) Inge de Bruijn. Who is strongly suspected of foul play. This is from the Frankfurter Allgemeine, not the most sensationalist newspaper:

There was once a swimmer who was considered a super talent for years, but the coaches despaired of her. She let her talents lie dormant; she simply didn't make an international breakthrough. But one fine day, in the year of the Sydney Olympic Games, she suddenly became a dominant winner. She won gold medals and became a huge star. At the time, everyone was amazed at her late rise.

In her home country, the Netherlands, it was said that she had trained properly for the first time in her life and that she had finally reached her potential. Elsewhere, especially in Germany, her face and body were more likely to be associated with doping. They called her, a little maliciously, Ingo. There was never a positive doping test from Inge de Bruijn.

Insurance Policy that Others won't be abld to swim with da Fishy?
 
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Altogether now ... Lock him up! Lock him up! Ok, enough about Sam Bankman-Fried. In other news ..

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...oping-result-for-jumbo-vismas-michel-hessmann

Michel Hessmann, who had helped Primoz Roglic to success, tested positive for a diuretic related to weight loss and has since been suspended. Today, his B-sample was confirmed to have the same result.

This is reported by Badische Zeitung with direct ties to the National German Anti-Doping Agency. After the first positive result the Jumbo-Visma rider asked for a B-sample and the result took several months to be found, but that has seemingly already been decided.

This will certainly mean that Hessmann awaits a suspension from pro cycling and his time with the Dutch team is most likely going to come to an end. On a separate note it will be possible for the 22-year old to face criminal charges as Germany takes doping cases very seriously.

(I await a statement from Visma-whatever -they're-called-now and the German prosecutors. November could well be a fun month with the Ullrich TV documentary as well - German sports guys getting busted ... who would have believed it?!)
 
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The CN article was factually inaccurate

If Hessman can prove contamination, the sanction can be reduced to a WARNING, not 2 years. That rule was changed at the same time as the 4 year ban was implemented
Yeah, but proving a legit contamination isn't easy, It pretty much has to be a legit one (See Rui Costa). German Nada also has a list with supplements that get tested by them, so you usually also have to Probe why you didn't stick with one of those supplements.

He isn't gonna get an USADA Style slap on the wrist If He can't prove that It actually was a tainted Supplement.
 
Yeah, but proving a legit contamination isn't easy, It pretty much has to be a legit one (See Rui Costa). German Nada also has a list with supplements that get tested by them, so you usually also have to Probe why you didn't stick with one of those supplements.

He isn't gonna get an USADA Style slap on the wrist If He can't prove that It actually was a tainted Supplement.
Just curious, is it really possible that Michel Hessmann will get a four-year ban, now?

From the past, I knew the rule that first-offenders get two-year sanctions, if no substances like, for example, EPO were used.

So my hope was that Hessmann would get a mild sanction, if any. But some mention he could get sanctioned for four years now.

Maybe you can help here, since I‘m obviously not up-to-date… Thanks in advance :)
 
Just curious, is it really possible that Michel Hessmann will get a four-year ban, now?

From the past, I knew the rule that first-offenders get two-year sanctions, if no substances like, for example, EPO were used.

So my hope was that Hessmann would get a mild sanction, if any. But some mention he could get sanctioned for four years now.

Maybe you can help here, since I‘m obviously not up-to-date… Thanks in advance :)
A 2 year ban seems Like the Most likely Outcome to me, that's the Main reason to go the tainted supplements Route (If It didn't actually happen). An involuntary offence, leaving to a shorter 2 year ban.