Team Visma LAB

[TourOfSardinia]

I heard JV are pushing for a 4th GT per year
to accommodate a win for all their stars post merger

 

[pastronef]

I heard JV are pushing for a 4th GT per year
to accommodate a win for all their stars post merger

Tour California!
where's Amgen when you need it?

 

[hrotha]

I heard JV are pushing for a 4th GT per year
to accommodate a win for all their stars post merger

They could do the Volta a Portugal just to take off the pressure of being the favourites

 

[noob]

Honestly I am a bit surprised that Rogla dares to leave the Jumbo juice. But it might be a reason for Remco to join.

What I mean is; things like doctors definitely must matter when chosing teams?

 

[TrekCyclist]

I guess Roglic knows by now what he (or his doctor) has to do. I cannot imagine he doesn not know the details of the medical treatment that he receives, and which vitamines to take when.

 

[Rackham]

Roglič knew what he was doing with his body before Jumbo Visma knew what they were doing with bikes. They were literal noobs just 4 years ago.

The Giro 2019 was an amateur show. It took years to iron out all the kinks. I mean these guys like to now act like masters (in particular I'm looking at the staff members who were middling riders or even just amateurs before becoming the current kingmakers behind the scenes), but to say they had humble beginnings is an understatement: they had no idea what they were doing.

They had ambition though, for sure. And that ambition has now outgrown Rog (& outgrew their budget as well, despite the fact their star rider(s) were underpaid).

 

[proffate]

I guess Roglic knows by now what he (or his doctor) has to do. I cannot imagine he doesn not know the details of the medical treatment that he receives, and which vitamines to take when.

Given that trained doctors and nutritionists on the other teams have not gotten it dialed to the extent that JV has, I think it's probably a bit more complex than "chug ketones LOL". So I don't think Roglic will be able to personally replicate it when he goes wherever. If he can, I guess that team can save some money by firing all their pharmacists.

He probably thinks nutrition/drugs/training is pretty simple and credits his own exceptionalism for most of his success. But even if he's more realistic about that, now is the optimal time to cash in on his reputation regardless. Future sporting results are probably secondary to cold hard cash.

 

[Rackham]

Given that trained doctors and nutritionists on the other teams have not gotten it dialed to the extent that JV has, I think it's probably a bit more complex than "chug ketones LOL". So I don't think Roglic will be able to personally replicate it when he goes wherever. If he can, I guess that team can save some money by firing all their pharmacists.

He probably thinks nutrition/drugs/training is pretty simple and credits his own exceptionalism for most of his success. But even if he's more realistic about that, now is the optimal time to cash in on his reputation regardless. Future sporting results are probably secondary to cold hard cash.

If the team was so advanced & brilliant, riders like Leemreize, Foss, Oomen & others wouldn't be stagnating.

Then there's examples like Chris Harper who seems just as strong at Jayco as he was at Jumbo. Dylan van Baarle was arguably (in fact he really was) stronger at Ineos last year than he is at Jumbo in 2023 (they have him doing donkey work on the flat at the front of the bunch in most races he does).

Wait & see. I realize Vingegaard is a massive 'achievement' for Jumbo but there's plenty of counter-examples within the team which paints a more nuanced picture regarding their overall scientific advance over the rest of the peloton. But I think Rog will be just fine (& he's not going to a retirement home either, he's signing for a team with actual ambition).

And more to the point, it looks like Roglič is desperate to leave.

 

[pastronef]

Roglič knew what he was doing with his body before Jumbo Visma knew what they were doing with bikes. They were literal noobs just 4 years ago.

The Giro 2019 was an amateur show. It took years to iron out all the kinks. I mean these guys like to now act like masters (in particular I'm looking at the staff members who were middling riders or even just amateurs before becoming the current kingmakers behind the scenes), but to say they had humble beginnings is an understatement: they had no idea what they were doing.

They had ambition though, for sure. And that ambition has now outgrown Rog (& outgrew their budget as well, despite the fact their star rider(s) were underpaid).

the Rabofail were many during those seasons. one of last ones was the team car piss stop in 2019 iirc at the Giro when Roglic punctured.

 

[Bonimenier]

Roglič knew what he was doing with his body before Jumbo Visma knew what they were doing with bikes. They were literal noobs just 4 years ago.

The Giro 2019 was an amateur show. It took years to iron out all the kinks. I mean these guys like to now act like masters (in particular I'm looking at the staff members who were middling riders or even just amateurs before becoming the current kingmakers behind the scenes), but to say they had humble beginnings is an understatement: they had no idea what they were doing.

They had ambition though, for sure. And that ambition has now outgrown Rog (& outgrew their budget as well, despite the fact their star rider(s) were underpaid).

So you're saying Roglic brought his doping program to Jumbo and not the other way around?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

the Rabofail were many during those seasons. one of last ones was the team car piss stop in 2019 iirc at the Giro when Roglic punctured.

Idunno, I think the 2020 Tour's "minimise gains today to maximise losses tomorrow" strategy fits the bill pretty well.

 

[Rackham]

So you're saying Roglic brought his doping program to Jumbo and not the other way around?

I'm saying Roglič was a top rider before Jumbo was a top team.

It doesn't mean anything in terms of clinical stuff, it just means Jumbo were not at the top of the food chain at a time when Rog's breakthrough as a top rider was happening.

So in response to people who assume Rog will lose a level outside Jumbo, I sincerely doubt it. Just as if he'd signed for Bahrain back in 2019 when they wanted him, I doubt he'd have been a lesser rider at that team. Don't get me wrong, i.e. Jumbo was good for Rog up until a point but those days are long gone. He's an afterthought there now & they really didn't know what to do with him this season beyond sending him to the Giro.

He'll be a hit at Bora. Just as Hindley was a hit for them after leaving DSM.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'm saying Roglič was a top rider before Jumbo was a top team.

It doesn't mean anything in terms of clinical stuff, it just means Jumbo were not at the top of the food chain at a time when Rog's breakthrough as a top rider was happening.

So in response to people who assume Rog will lose a level outside Jumbo, I sincerely doubt it. Just as if he'd signed for Bahrain back in 2019 when they wanted him, I doubt he'd have been a lesser rider at that team. Don't get me wrong, i.e. Jumbo was good for Rog up until a point but those days are long gone. He's an afterthought there now & they really didn't know what to do with him this season beyond sending him to the Giro.

He'll be a hit at Bora. Just as Hindley was a hit for them after leaving DSM.

JV know how to prepare riders though, probably better than any other team.

 

[Rackham]

JV know how to prepare riders though, probably better than any other team.

It does make me wonder how this works. I mean I won't lie, I have no idea.

I guess the whole motorized bike stuff can be discarded after the Vuelta though, i.e. considering Rog's little act of rebellion on the Angliru. I doubt they would have fitted something in his bike after the mood in the camp went to sh*t the night before.

And that extends to the clinical stuff as well, i.e. once Rog became an afterthought for Jumbo (a spare wheel of sorts) I doubt they put much effort into 'preparing' him, certainly for the Vuelta.

From the outside it often appears like favorite riders get favorite treatment whilst the rest take care of themselves.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I believe Roglič and Jumbo were growing side by side. He became a top time trialist overnight after he had joined the team, so someone must have taught him something that year.

 

[Netserk]

I believe Roglič and Jumbo were growing side by side. He became a top time trialist overnight after he had joined the team, so someone must have taught him something that year.

Not in Algarve (24th) and Tirreno (30th). He became a top TTer at the Giro. His only top-20 performances before that in cat 1 and above were a 12th place in the Sibiu Tour '14 prologue and a 16th place at the Tour of Slovenia '15 ITT.

It wouldn't surprise if that was because he only achieved a good TT-position between Tirreno and the Giro that year.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Not in Algarve (24th) and Tirreno (30th). He became a top TTer at the Giro. His only top-20 performances before that in cat 1 and above were a 12th place in the Sibiu Tour '14 prologue and a 16th place at the Tour of Slovenia '15 ITT.

It wouldn't surprise if that was because he only achieved a good TT-position between Tirreno and the Giro that year.

I did mean overnight as in-between the 5th and 6th of May.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It does make me wonder how this works. I mean I won't lie, I have no idea.

I guess the whole motorized bike stuff can be discarded after the Vuelta though, i.e. considering Rog's little act of rebellion on the Angliru. I doubt they would have fitted something in his bike after the mood in the camp went to sh*t the night before.

And that extends to the clinical stuff as well, i.e. once Rog became an afterthought for Jumbo (a spare wheel of sorts) I doubt they put much effort into 'preparing' him, certainly for the Vuelta.

From the outside it often appears like favorite riders get favorite treatment whilst the rest take care of themselves.

"Just show the world who's the strongest!"

We saw that in the Tour ITT but also in the Giro ITT.

 

[Aimar16]

Dylan van Baarle was arguably (in fact he really was) stronger at Ineos last year than he is at Jumbo in 2023 (they have him doing donkey work on the flat at the front of the bunch in most races he does).

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The guy looked super strong during the Tour and the Vuelta, constantly going tirelessly in front and almost single-handedly keeping strong breaks on a short leash.

The picture is marred by the fact that he had a very unlucky spring, so it's almost impossible to compare his performance this year with last. But remember he started the season with a 16km solo victory.

 

[samhocking]

I remember him saying he wanted join Jumbo purely because he's Dutch and didn't want to miss out on the wave winning Le Tour, but I do agree, he's not had a big result this year, but I think he knew that was the compromise. I think to some extent he also filled the gap of Rohan Dennis who just seemed to dissapear into the background at Jumbo on a two year retirement wind-down.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I believe Roglič and Jumbo were growing side by side. He became a top time trialist overnight after he had joined the team, so someone must have taught him something that year.

Jumbo were amatuers back in 2016, they didn't even know what a TT bike was. It was the mythical cycling genius of roglic that allowed him to become a top time trialist after a good night's sleep.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Jumbo were amatuers back in 2016, they didn't even know what a TT bike was. It was the mythical cycling genius of roglic that allowed him to become a top time trialist after a good night's sleep.

Yeah, just recall Rasmussen's legendary TT at the Tour in 2005. Rogla the Phenom made JV what they are now!

 

[pastronef]

WVA and Roglic trainer from Jumbo will join Roglic to Bora

"Marc Lamberts has been coaching WVA for 12 years (WVA turned 29 a cpl of weeks ago). Now the paths may be parting ways as Lamberts is heading to Bora, according to media reports. It's been a long collaboration"

 

[Rackham]

The coach situation answers questions re Rog replicating his Jumbo form at Bora.

Also, if Bora are backed by Red Bull money, I could envisage Wout van Aert seriously considering moving on from Jumbo at some point. That's for the challenge, new environment & better contract (with more freedom as well).

I have my own thoughts on the Jumbo situation, some of which are based purely on observation over the years, but something which sticks out to me is how the team underpaid its top stars (citing quasi poverty versus the oil backed teams), then used whatever funds they had to buy strength in depth. But all that happened was riders started to cannibalize each other's objectives & results.

I mean are Laporte & Van Baarle really there to help Wout van Aert? Or win instead of WvA? I think the situation for him was better when he had Teunissen as a leadout guy (he knew what his job was) & far more defined roles in the team.

 

[Cookster15]

I have my own thoughts on the Jumbo situation, some of which are based purely on observation over the years, but something which sticks out to me is how the team underpaid its top stars (citing quasi poverty versus the oil backed teams), then used whatever funds they had to buy strength in depth. But all that happened was riders started to cannibalize each other's objectives & results.

On "oil backed teams", it helps to check rather than make assumptions. Knowing team budgets is central to discussing the merits of the merger or Roglic leaving.

• Jumbo-Visma, Ineos and UAE's annual budgets are estimated to be in the vicinity of €50 million to €60 million. So being an oil backed team isn't so advantageous to UAE.
• Quickstep's budget is ~€25 million to €30 million
• Bora also has an annual budget of ~€25 million to €30 million
• For a benchmark comparison, Manchester United's budget was estimated to be €243m in 2022/23

As the story states, some teams may have additional sources of funding or sponsorships that are not reflected in these budgets.

Source:

What are the budgets of the WorldTour cycling teams in 2023? - ProCyclingUK.com

Teams rarely discuss their actual budget figures, although a recent trend has seen Richard Plugge of Jumbo-Visma claim that they are around 5th or 6th in the table of budgets this season. So with plenty of smoke and mirrors, it’s hard to really know for sure the exact budget figures. What we can...

procyclinguk.com

So according to these figures, Jumbo are not "poverty stricken" and compare similarly to the other big two teams. Jumbo's budget ranking is consistent with their performances since 2020. According to the link the oil backed team of UAE only have an extra €5 million (10%) to play with which is line ball with the other oil backed team Ineos - poverty stricken? Quickstep are ranked 5th with ~€20 million less to spend than Jumbo-Visma.