Team Visma LAB

[Rob5091]

“a diuretic that was contained in a medication” is all that we know about what Hessman is being done for. We await more info.

 

[Sciatic]

Yeah, but proving a legit contamination isn't easy, It pretty much has to be a legit one (See Rui Costa). German Nada also has a list with supplements that get tested by them, so you usually also have to Probe why you didn't stick with one of those supplements.

He isn't gonna get an USADA Style slap on the wrist If He can't prove that It actually was a tainted Supplement.

I didn’t know that about the list of approved supplements—that’s a great idea and would love to see more countries do that.

 

[Tim Cahill]

How Many Carbs? | 53x12

www.53x12.com

Ferarri, 2006, pertinent to the alleged discovery of carbohydrates post-2020.

 

[Rob5091]

How Many Carbs? | 53x12

www.53x12.com

Ferarri, 2006, pertinent to the alleged discovery of carbohydrates post-2020.

Thanks for the link! Interesting that the study quoted was from 1993 - 30 years ago.
"10g of CHO/kg of body weight is a remarkable amount of carbs: for an athlete of 70kg it corresponds to 700g, which is an amount quite hard to reach with a traditional nutrition strategy, even if rich in pasta, rice, potatoes, cereals, etc.
I remind that for pasta, rice and cereals, 75-80% of the weight is CHO, for potatoes it is 20-25%, for fresh fruit and vegetables is about 10%. "
So we're talking about the equivalent of 900g of pasta or rice per day ... wow!

This is the link to the recent article on carbs -
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...ydrate-revolution-is-speeding-up-pro-cycling/
Interesting that what I wondered about the recovery process of top guys must be more then the ice tub (even with psychoactive bathsalts) is being claimed to be down to nutrition.
So I wonder where do ketones come into this as the ketone diet is when you limit the amount of carbs. So ketones drinks are a way to get those high carb type intakes-

Ketone Drinks: Types, Benefits, Risk & Safety, Drawbacks

Exogenous ketone drinks work by supplying your body with beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), the ketone that your liver produces when you reduce carbohydrates. By taking them as part of your keto diet plan, you’ll be able to get a quick source of ketones and reap certain benefits. Here’s why you might...

perfectketo.com

"Our bodies produce ketones when we restrict carbohydrates — for instance, following a keto diet. We can also take a ketones drink (popularly called exogenous ketones) to support nutritional ketosis and experience its benefits.
Before deciding to supplement, it’s helpful to know the types of ketones that are available, how they help in certain areas of your health and wellness, their safety, and the best ketone supplements on the market.
Ketone drinks or exogenous ketones are a supplement form of ketones that your body naturally creates — in other words, endogenous ketones — by limiting carbs or entering a fasted state.
Your liver produces three types of ketone bodies, namely, acetoacetate (AcAc), beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), and acetone (Ace). When you’re in a state of ketosis, you use BHB as your main energy source instead of carbohydrates.
It’s important to note that your body is constantly producing ketones that create 22 adenosine triphosphate (ATP), the energy-carrying molecule, even when you’re eating carbs. However, this increases in ketosis (*).
When it comes to exogenous ketone supplements, you may have noticed BHB as the ketone that’s found in the drink. This is because BHB is the main energy source your body runs on.
Research suggests that 100 grams of BHB produces 10,500 grams of ATP, which is higher than glucose (*). Taking a BHB ketone drink can support a healthy keto lifestyle, including your workouts, mental performance, and energy levels. This is why BHB ketones are considered a “superfuel” and it’s what ketone supplements are based on."

 

[samhocking]

I didn’t know that about the list of approved supplements—that’s a great idea and would love to see more countries do that.

There's a few systems out there both Country and global. Pretty much every NADA has entire sections of advice on only using supplements from approved screened batches, because the only way you're gonna prove contamination is to have the same batch tested that's stored or if as an athlete you save a batch of every supplement you take. I would think Jumbo, like Ineos have any supplements not approved, screened and batched anyway, there's simply too much risk buying ad-hoc both from team or riders pocket.

 

[Rob5091]

Van Baarle gives the low down on how Jumbo guys are fresh as daisies every day at stage races - it's the grub! So will some team try to poach the nutrition guys at Jumbo?

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ict-within-jumbo-visma-at-the-vuelta-a-espana

Comparing the differences between INEOS and Jumbo-Visma, van Baarle has noticed a few key things that set the two teams apart. "They are both looking for marginal gains , but the biggest difference is the nutrition and the nutrition coaches," he explains. "In this way I really took another step forward, especially in the big tours. After every ride your recovery feels better and I didn't have any bad days. That has to do with the nutrition we get both on and off the bike."

 

[Sciatic]

Van Baarle gives the low down on how Jumbo guys are fresh as daisies every day at stage races - it's the grub! So will some team try to poach the nutrition guys at Jumbo?

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ict-within-jumbo-visma-at-the-vuelta-a-espana

Comparing the differences between INEOS and Jumbo-Visma, van Baarle has noticed a few key things that set the two teams apart. "They are both looking for marginal gains , but the biggest difference is the nutrition and the nutrition coaches," he explains. "In this way I really took another step forward, especially in the big tours. After every ride your recovery feels better and I didn't have any bad days. That has to do with the nutrition we get both on and off the bike."

“Nutrition;” indeed.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

lol wrong Jumbo thread

 

[pastronef]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1733544025653723242

View: https://www.twitter.com/BORAhansgrohe/status/1733544025653723242

 

[noob]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1733544025653723242

View: https://www.twitter.com/BORAhansgrohe/status/1733544025653723242

This Cian beef is soooo hilarious!

 

[Rob5091]

Plugge pushes the "contamination" old chestnut -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ence-of-michel-hessmanns-positive-doping-test

Hessmann has always denied deliberately doping with Plugge and Team Visma | Lease a Bike giving him their full backing. So if not deliberate, how could both samples have tested positive? Plugge thinks he knows the answer to that conundrum. “It appears to have been a contamination."

So, are we to expect some update soon as Plugge has mentioned Hessmann?

 

[Rob5091]

Hopefully next month (February) we'll hear more about Hessmann -

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...m-june-it-looks-like-something-like-pollution

 

[theyoungest]

The German prosecutor has dismissed the criminal investigation into Hessmann's case, which means that he can't be prosecuted. He could still be suspended though, which shows the absurdity of the current doping regulations: they act on a presumption of guilt rather than innocence.

 

[houtdffan]

The German prosecutor has dismissed the criminal investigation into Hessmann's case, which means that he can't be prosecuted. He could still be suspended though, which shows the absurdity of the current doping regulations: they act on a presumption of guilt rather than innocence.

WADA would rather get 1,000 innocent people to catch the guilty, whereas the legal system is the opposite

 

[noob]

Michel Hessmann won’t face criminal charges amid doping case

Freiburg Public Prosecutor’s Office has dropped its investigation into the 22-year-old due to a lack of evidence

www.globalcyclingnetwork.com

 

[Rob5091]

So I assume that no provable attempt to mask doping was discovered so it'll be the slapp on the wrists from the UCI.
In other Visma news, how Visma guys get their "durability" -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling/visma-lease-a-bike-signs-three-year-partnership-with-ketone-iq

Visma–Lease a Bike has signed a three-year partnership with Ketone-IQ, an industry-leading American brand that produces a ketone ester drink. In the announcement on Visma–Lease a Bike’s website, the team’s performance nutritionist Martijn Redegeld stated that “we have several years of experience with this supplement, and we are positive about the effects. After taking ketones, riders recover better from a hard training session or race because the body's fuel stores are replenished faster. Sleep quality also improves. In this way, we increase training efficiency”.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Doping im Radsport: Ein Fall mit Sprengkraft

Der deutsche Radprofi Michel Heßmann steht unter Dopingverdacht. Er weist das zurück, die Nada ermittelt. Im Fokus: ein umstrittener Grenzwert.

www.sueddeutsche.de

Explosive force in document TL24

The German cyclist Michel Heßmann is under suspicion of doping. He denies this, the NADA is investigating - and behind the scenes, an intense debate is raging. It's clear: The stakes are high. Michel Heßmann is currently back in the saddle often. The 22-year-old has been one of Germany's biggest cycling talents for several years; he has won various junior titles and debuted at a major national tour last year, the Giro d'Italia, with the industry leader Jumbo-Visma. These days, he's doing many training sessions around his home near Freiburg. However, races are not on his calendar for the time being since a positive finding for a prohibited substance became known in August, leading his team to suspend him. Since mid-2023, the national anti-doping agency (NADA) has been dealing with the case. Heßmann faces a suspension of up to four years. The case is highly explosive, and behind the scenes, an intense sports legal debate is now raging, according to SZ research.

The implications for cycling in the Heßmann case are enormous. He would be the first prominent German rider to be suspended since the major scandal years. It would also be the first doping suspension for a rider from the successful Jumbo team, which is competing this season under the name Visma-Lease a Bike. The Dutch squad has dominated the peloton for years but is also viewed critically. This is because they provide their riders with ketones, a not prohibited but highly controversial substance; because the sports director Grischa Niermann has his own past as an EPO offender; also because the top performers like Jonas Vingegaard and Sepp Kuss have recently distanced the field so markedly at the Tour de France and the Vuelta a España. Team boss Richard Plugge classified the day he received information about Heßmann's positive test as a 'black day for our team'. In this context, the Heßmann case could trigger a lot. And the details of the case and the handling of the global anti-doping regulations are accordingly remarkable. According to SZ research, minimal traces of Chlortalidone were detected in a training sample from Heßmann in June. The concentration was just under 20 nanograms per milliliter. This substance is one of the so-called diuretics, substances that promote urination and dehydration and are used in medicine especially for high blood pressure. Heßmann's lawyer states that the circumstances would indicate contamination. On the doping list, they are for two reasons. First, athletes in sports with weight classes, like boxing, can use diuretics to get under weight limits. Secondly, they can flush harder doping substances out of the body. Chlortalidone is detectable longer than other diuretics. A positive test for a diuretic does not automatically lead to a suspension by the responsible anti-doping agency; in Heßmann's case, it was the team that suspended him, not the NADA. The latter always first looks at the complete circumstances of a case. The cyclist himself denies any misuse.

His Visma team currently does not want to comment on whether they believe him or not but is waiting for the NADA's investigation. Heßmann's lawyer Rainer Cherkeh had already told SZ in the fall that the circumstances would indicate contamination; he does not comment further on a current request. The Freiburg public prosecutor's office, which automatically investigates in the event of a positive finding due to the Anti-Doping Act, recently discontinued its proceedings because it found no additional incriminating evidence. But sports law has different rules than criminal law - hence the NADA continues to investigate. In evaluating the Heßmann case, this now leads to a remarkable situation. Alleged or actual contaminations with diuretics are a perennial issue; residues have often been detected in dietary supplements or painkillers.

In recent years, various positive findings ultimately remained unpunished because contaminated medicines were found in subsequent checks. At the end of 2021, the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), formally the global guardian in the fight against sports manipulation, therefore issued a document named TL24. It introduced a threshold value for six diuretics, up to which a finding would no longer be considered a positive doping test. And this threshold is precisely - 20 nanograms per milliliter. Just above the concentration of the substance in Heßmann's sample. The reason given by WADA for this threshold is: 'At estimated urine concentrations of 20 ng/ml or less, a diuretic would not be effective in masking the presence of other prohibited substances that may be present in the sample.' Among these six specifically mentioned diuretics are classics such as Hydrochlorothiazide and Furosemide. However, Chlortalidone, the substance found in Heßmann, is not among them.

Now, the procedure is obviously about the question of why Chlortalidone should be treated differently than other diuretics. Because if the threshold of 20 nanograms per milliliter would also apply to Chlortalidone, Heßmann would be off the hook. A NADA-appointed expert comes to a remarkable conclusion in this context. The arbitrary limitation to those six diuretics, for which contamination of medications has been sporadically detected, remains unclear,' he writes according to SZ information: 'Since other substances are manufactured under comparable pharmaceutical production standards, it is not apparent why comparable risks should be excluded here.' At the same time, he points out, referring to different dosages and detection times, how difficult it is to establish 'substance-independent and robust threshold values.' NADA apparently does not want to follow the approach of treating Chlortalidone like the other six diuretics. They do not want to comment on the case publicly, at least the process is still ongoing more than two and a half months after this expert opinion was created. NADA is obviously considering other aspects - and it does not operate in a vacuum. Because although WADA does not have authority over national anti-doping agencies, it has often overturned their decisions.

In response to a query about why no other diuretics made it onto the TL24 list, WADA explains that only the six mentioned diuretics have been identified as contaminants in some legal pharmaceutical products. Asked whether it would be possible to treat a Chlortalidone finding with a concentration of less than 20 nanograms per milliliter like a finding with a diuretic from the list of six, it is clear. 'Diuretics are prohibited at all times. For all other diuretics not listed in TL24, no threshold applies.' Michel Heßmann will probably have to complete quite a few training sessions before he can enter a race in his calendar again.

 

[Rob5091]

Chlorthalidone has been mentioned as the reason for Hessmann's suspension. Is this news from the German prosecutors or a media guess?

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ive-doping-test-down-to-contaminated-medicine

Doing a search for chlorthalidone on this forum results in some posts from 2012 about Frank Schleck's 1 year ban for Xipamide. A 1 year backdated ban for Hessmann seems like a possible outcome.

 

[samhocking]

The German prosecutor has dismissed the criminal investigation into Hessmann's case, which means that he can't be prosecuted. He could still be suspended though, which shows the absurdity of the current doping regulations: they act on a presumption of guilt rather than innocence.

Kind of. The burden of proof is on the athlete, because the evidence already exists in the sample/passport. Unlike criminal law though they do get a second test with the B Sample and also Athlete explanation for some substances which can null the AAF entirely. That doesn't happen in criminal law. Your DNA from the scene of the crime is evidence, you don't get a second attempt to prove the DNA isn't yours like WADA allow.

 

[theyoungest]

... The Dutch squad has dominated the peloton for years but is also viewed critically. This is because they provide their riders with ketones, a not prohibited but highly controversial substance; because the sports director Grischa Niermann has his own past as an EPO offender; also because the top performers like Jonas Vingegaard and Sepp Kuss have recently distanced the field so markedly at the Tour de France and the Vuelta a España. ...

This kind of journalism is so lazy... they use ketones (the majority of the peloton does), Grischa Niermann was an EPO user (we know that because he has actually confessed it, unlike a lot of others), and they ride fast (yes they do, but the fastest one doesn't use ketones, making your first point moot). It's like they have to insert a critical note because otherwise it might seem like this team is clean, which of course is absolutely impossible.

 

[pastronef]

allmighty today.

 

[Rob5091]

So we wait and wait ...

 

[noob]

The difference between Rabo Rogla and Bora Rogla

 

[saganftw]

if bernal signed with jumbo they would heal his back...if francisco mancebo signed with jumbo they would straighten him up

 

[AmRacer]

if bernal signed with jumbo they would heal his back...if francisco mancebo signed with jumbo they would straighten him up

If @Froome .. ..