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Teams & Riders Team Visma - Lease a Bike

Page 109 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Now Jumbo, make us fans the gift we all wait for: a TdF final GC podium of

1 Roglic,
2 Vingegaard,
3 Kuss.

That would be the crowning of the dreams of all of us… :)

Roglic must now win his Tour de France.

As everyone on Team Jumbo Visma knows, nothing is more successful than the success.

It was only the Vuelta, Nr 3 of the GTs, but it was such a harsh blow to all ambitions of the likes of Remco, Mas, Almeida, Carthy, even Ayuso.

Almeida, Remco, Mas, Pogacar, Bernal, Thomas, all gone. What a year, GT wise.

Future is Roglic, Vingegaard, Kuss, Ayuso, Jan Christen, Uijtdebroeks, guys like these.

UAE even behind Bora in Vuelta team classification.

But a super solid Landa. I always asked myself, what is this Landa guy hyped for. Now I know better. He‘s still super, maybe better than ever. What a mistake that he joins Quick Step, now. He moves to become a domestique - in fact, he should be leader at a top team, to go for the Tour podium. Qzick Step cannot satisfy him. He is still so potent - you can clearly see this.
 
Just having a think back to the three GT's this year and Jumbo's performance. Even though they ended up winning them all, it was made easier my circumstance, but credit to Jumbo in that they did try some risky tactics which paid off. My 2 cents worth -
The Giro was tough going for Roglic - dropping time to Almeida & Thomas on stage 16 seemed like the end of his chances but a gamble with a different gearing (which nearly ruined his TT) saved the day against a fatigued Thomas. The biggest challengers, Evenepoel and Hart both went home early and UAE had their normal problems.
The Tour for two weeks was close, but Pogacar's injury prone preparation caught up with him in week 3, even so on stage 17 when Pogacar cracked, Jumbo had 2 men up the road in the break. Not forgetting also that, in week 1, Pogacar lost time on stage 5, and Jumbo gambled going all in the next day and Vingegaard lost time instead.
The Vuelta went how it did, but on stage 6, Jumbo had 4 men in the break which was risky but paid off in the long run. Again Evenepoel disappointed and the Spanish guys plus Almeida could not hang on when it mattered. The big question which has not really been answered was Vingegaard's participation at the Vuelta. Was it really a lack of faith in Roglic's ability?
 
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but lets be fair here, if vinge and roglic were free to ride its very likely Vinge would have smashed this. Only looked like to get better in the final week.

Depends when "free riding" phase starts. Vinge did not look that good in 1st half of Vuelta and Rogla could have gotten quite a lead. But we will never know thanks to TJV "tactical approach".

Could have been iconic Vuelta where Rogla was again firmly in driving seat only for Vinge to go nuklear in one of last week mountain stages and flipped the coin ;)

Now we have fans favourite as a winner of mickey mouse show. At least there were some interesting individual stages but GC action was robbed of any suspense.
 
The big question which has not really been answered was Vingegaard's participation at the Vuelta. Was it really a lack of faith in Roglic's ability?

If it is to be believed, then Vingegaard was promised the opportunity to ride the Vuelta at the start of the season due to the team's faith in his ability. Roglič on the other hand was only promised the Giro, because he didn't want to play second fiddle in the Tour, plus his GT level was of course also uncertain at that point. After the Giro win, the team once again tried to convince him to go to the Tour, but they still couldn't come to an agreement.

That obviously meant that both he and Vingegaard and Kuss, whose status in the team hadn't been threatened by any of the team's other climbers and since he also got along with both R and J, all had to go to the Vuelta.
 
If it is to be believed, then Vingegaard was promised the opportunity to ride the Vuelta at the start of the season due to the team's faith in his ability. Roglič on the other hand was only promised the Giro, because he didn't want to play second fiddle in the Tour, plus his GT level was of course also uncertain at that point. After the Giro win, the team once again tried to convince him to go to the Tour, but they still couldn't come to an agreement.

That obviously meant that both he and Vingegaard and Kuss, whose status in the team hadn't been threatened by any of the team's other climbers and since he also got along with both R and J, all had to go to the Vuelta.
That's not true. Roglič wanted to go, his numbers were great after Giro, but team said no.
 
Merijn Zeeman on the leadership question, in a Dutch podcast:

Did you have to intervene during the final week of the Vuelta? Did you have to say: "okay guys, knock it off, from now on it's for Sepp"?

Zeeman: "I think it's a good tradition that whatever's being said in the dressing room stays there, so I'll adhere to that. But I'm happy that eventually we saw that everyone was in agreement, wanted this for each other, and did justice to the principle that no one's bigger than the team. That's the most important to me."

I hear a "yes".

Zeeman: *laughs* "You can fill that in yourself".

If you start giving answers as circumspect as this then I know what's up.

Zeeman: "I'll also take part in the [Dutch parliamentary] elections on the 22nd of November. *laughs*

You'll probably win those as well. *laughs*
 
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...nst-formidable-rivals-like-vingegaard-or-kuss
Merijn Zeeman, leader of Jumbo-Visma on the car throughout most of the biggest races of the year, has talked about the preparation that goes behind a triple Grand Tour win, conflicts within Jumbo-Visma and the topic of Primoz Roglic's possible departure from the team.
...
Jonas Vingegaard was ok with it, but Primoz Roglic was not as satisfied, after having prepared throughout months specifically for the race and not stepping a foot wrong. Rumours enhanced of a possible departure, despite his two years of remaining contract. "To be honest, I'm not overly worried about that. Additionally, we are continually developing talented riders ourselves. Primoz has grown into the undisputed leader of the team with us;" Zeeman replies to that quite directly. Movistar Team, Lidl-Trek and INEOS Grenadiers are all teams mentioned over the past months. Most of the argument lies in his inability to lead the Tour de France because of Jonas Vingegaard's presence.

However he presents another obvious point that is often ignored by those claiming his chances of success would improve elsewhere. "I believe it's in Primoz's best interest to strive for a Tour win while wearing the Jumbo-Visma jersey. If he were to leave, he'd potentially have to compete against formidable rivals like Vingegaard or Kuss," Zeeman adds. "Being a teammate to such strong riders is a better position than competing against them."
(Zeeman seems to confirm that Roglic is not happy and thinking of moving. If Roglic does want to be team leader at the Tour, then he'll have to move, or maybe Jumbo management have upset him so much he wants to move. This soap opera will run for a while yet.)
 
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Everyone has their opinion re a potential Roglič transfer. If he stays, I trust he has good reasons to do so. But one argument I've seen repeated is the one Zeeman uses here, i.e. it's "easier" to beat Vingegaard & Kuss if he's their teammate.

In reality the Vuelta showed the complete opposite to be true. Being on the same team as those riders skewered his chances. He couldn't attack, he had to endure their attacks & the team actively imposed orders to force him into 3rd.

Could the scenario be different in the Tour? Maybe, maybe not. That's the sort of question I assume Rog is asking himself right now (& the team, whether he believes their answers or not).
 
Everyone has their opinion re a potential Roglič transfer. If he stays, I trust he has good reasons to do so. But one argument I've seen repeated is the one Zeeman uses here, i.e. it's "easier" to beat Vingegaard & Kuss if he's their teammate.

In reality the Vuelta showed the complete opposite to be true. Being on the same team as those riders skewered his chances. He couldn't attack, he had to endure their attacks & the team actively imposed orders to force him into 3rd.

Could the scenario be different in the Tour? Maybe, maybe not. That's the sort of question I assume Rog is asking himself right now (& the team, whether he believes their answers or not).
If he thinks that he has a fair chance of winning the Tour with brute force against Pogi and Vingegaard, he should change team.

If he thinks that he cannot win the Tour with brute force against them, he should stay.

Most likely, he probably thinks his strength is a bit in between those two scenarios. Then the answer isn't straightforward. I think his most likely path to a Tour win is a tactical scenario as teammate of Vingegaard, but the decision is not up to me.
 
The biggest obstacle to his leaving is a 2 year contract. Either he or his new team will need to buy it out.
Calling Kuss a big opponent makes me laugh. The guy won because he was allowed away in a break, defended well in the ITT and Jonas and Primoz were forced to support him. If he leaves, he needs to fear Pogi and Jonas. But uninjured and at his best I think he can do it!
He built up to that race for months and they hobbled him....he owes them nothing (except a 2 year contract) for that back stab.
Find a team with good support and let him fly!
 
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...nst-formidable-rivals-like-vingegaard-or-kuss
Merijn Zeeman, leader of Jumbo-Visma on the car throughout most of the biggest races of the year, has talked about the preparation that goes behind a triple Grand Tour win, conflicts within Jumbo-Visma and the topic of Primoz Roglic's possible departure from the team.
...
Jonas Vingegaard was ok with it, but Primoz Roglic was not as satisfied, after having prepared throughout months specifically for the race and not stepping a foot wrong. Rumours enhanced of a possible departure, despite his two years of remaining contract. "To be honest, I'm not overly worried about that. Additionally, we are continually developing talented riders ourselves. Primoz has grown into the undisputed leader of the team with us;" Zeeman replies to that quite directly. Movistar Team, Lidl-Trek and INEOS Grenadiers are all teams mentioned over the past months. Most of the argument lies in his inability to lead the Tour de France because of Jonas Vingegaard's presence.

However he presents another obvious point that is often ignored by those claiming his chances of success would improve elsewhere. "I believe it's in Primoz's best interest to strive for a Tour win while wearing the Jumbo-Visma jersey. If he were to leave, he'd potentially have to compete against formidable rivals like Vingegaard or Kuss," Zeeman adds. "Being a teammate to such strong riders is a better position than competing against them."
(Zeeman seems to confirm that Roglic is not happy and thinking of moving. If Roglic does want to be team leader at the Tour, then he'll have to move, or maybe Jumbo management have upset him so much he wants to move. This soap opera will run for a while yet.)
Yes. This is an important difference. I think it was @Netserk who disagreed earlier, but Vingegaard was laser focused on the Tour this year l, did not specifically prep for this, came in undercooked and had GI issues (see ITT), already won the biggest prize in the sport, etc. very different scenario from Roglic who was shooting for a record-tying fourth and had spent the last several months on specific prep and sacrifices to win the Vuelta. He is also 33. He was at the top of his game and had a lot at stake. Kuss and Vingegaard YOLOed it and were at least at times weaker than Roglic, and yet they finished above him due to team orders. How could you not be frustrated even if you love Kuss like a brother?
 
But one argument I've seen repeated is the one Zeeman uses here, i.e. it's "easier" to beat Vingegaard & Kuss if he's their teammate.

In reality the Vuelta showed the complete opposite to be true.
No, it did not.

Just because Kuss was the one who ended up gaining time early and Roglic was held back in an effort to gain this time back, it doesn't mean the next time the roles wouldn't be reversed and that Roglic couldn't be the one who ends up gaining time and Vingegaard is held back, for example.

If we assume that statistically Roglic has a bigger chance to be weaker than Vingegaard than stronger than him, he could have a better chance winning the TdF the Kuss way than changing teams and going against Vingegaard and Kuss and whoever else they throw into the mix in a straight fight. Even more so if you include the factor that Jumbo's ways of getting performance out of riders seem to be the best in the peloton at the moment and Roglic switching teams may end up hurting is performance a bit. If you make these assumptions, Zeeman's comment makes perfect sense.
 

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