Teams & Riders Team Visma - Lease a Bike

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As long as the team leaders win, why change?

Kuss, if he's surviving today, which looks very likely, normally will be happy going back to his super domestique role. He knows that 1 on 1 he would lose against both Roglic and Vingegaard, he knows that without the 3' escape early, that was only possible because he is in the same team as 2 of the 3 pre-race favorites, he would be fighting for the podium, not the win. No problem with Kuss, and depending on the 2 others he might get to ride the Giro 24 as leader? Anyway, riding all 3 GTs clearly no problem for him this year, let him do it again next year.
Roglic? Only sensible program for him next year is Tour-Vuelta. Tour Vingegaard is of course the leader, but Roglic doesn't start as a helper, if Vingegaard surprisingly has a day off, it's Kuss that waits, Roglic can keep riding. If you're in a situation like Granon 22, somebody like Roglic can be helpful again, and a fit Roglic will not fold then. Then the Vuelta.
Vingegaard is the biggest question.: Giro, after doing the Tour and Vuelta this year, does Vingegaard feel confident enough to try the Giro-Tour double? If yes, go for it, It's a risk, normally he starts as clear favorite for the Tour, but having the Giro in the legs, with somebody like Pogacar in the race, not sure he is fresh enough. And Roglic beating Pogacar is not something you can count on really. But it would make sense, Vingegaard Giro-Tour, Roglic Tour-Vuelta, Kuss all 3 as number 2-3-2. If Vingegaard doesn't want to risk the Tour and wants Tour-Vuelta again, then Kuss gets the Giro and Roglic risks being unhappy. But all three benefit from the strength of the team as well, so...

They can co-exist,
 
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For the sake of the argument, let's assume that Jumbo in fact systematically dis-favours and underutilizes Roglic, their multi-million investment, as some posters either claim or insinuate they do.

Prima facie it is irrational. Why do they do this, then?
He's older then Vingegaard and has problems beating Pogacar at the Tour. Too many leaders cause problems and even "knucklehead" Horner pointed out this early this year.
 
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Ultimately, Jumbo couldn't win this Vuelta no matter who they let take GC. The W for Kuss is probably the outcome that causes the least trouble and makes the most people happy. It also offers them a chance to spin the agenda of winning all three grand tours with three different riders. You cannot make everybody happy, and thus, all things considered, I think having Kuss get the top spot is the best outcome.

Still, you'll have people up in arms, i.e. Roglic fans who think they stole a Vuelta from him. That Vingegaard was just better in the third week is something that they of course conveniently sweep under their carpets. It's also quite ironic, since Roglic is the one who has most benefitted from Jumbo and their strength in numbers. From Kuss saving a multitude of GCs, to Wout keeping him in yellow in Nice and Vingegaard basically gifting him a Dauphine when the latter was already better.
 
Honestly I'm thinking right now the internal problems within Jumbo are way overblown. Roglic is the only one that seems discontent with his own result, and that's quite normal. Nothing to me points to a feud between Roglic and Vingegaard, and nothing really indicates to me this should have that much bearing to the Tour next year.

It's also normal that sitting idle and letting Kuss have it is more difficult for Roglic, and it's not just because he's older. Roglic prepared specifically for the Vuelta and came into this race in top shape. Vinegaard meanwhile rode it as a bit of an afterthought and was shitting himself in the first week. A big part of happiness is the way that reality matches our expectations.
 
Ultimately, Jumbo couldn't win this Vuelta no matter who they let take GC. The W for Kuss is probably the outcome that causes the least trouble and makes the most people happy. It also offers them a chance to spin the agenda of winning all three grand tours with three different riders. You cannot make everybody happy, and thus, all things considered, I think having Kuss get the top spot is the best outcome.

Still, you'll have people up in arms, i.e. Roglic fans who think they stole a Vuelta from him. That Vingegaard was just better in the third week is something that they of course conveniently sweep under their carpets. It's also quite ironic, since Roglic is the one who has most benefitted from Jumbo and their strength in numbers. From Kuss saving a multitude of GCs, to Wout keeping him in yellow in Nice and Vingegaard basically gifting him a Dauphine when the latter was already better.
It probably would have taken a scenario where Ayuso or Evenepoel drop Kuss while Vingegaard and Roglic then drop Ayuso and Vingegaard later. Basically overtaking Kuss would have to be a natural consequences of defending the teams interest, rather than the individual interest.
 
Ultimately, Jumbo couldn't win this Vuelta no matter who they let take GC. The W for Kuss is probably the outcome that causes the least trouble and makes the most people happy. It also offers them a chance to spin the agenda of winning all three grand tours with three different riders. You cannot make everybody happy, and thus, all things considered, I think having Kuss get the top spot is the best outcome.

Still, you'll have people up in arms, i.e. Roglic fans who think they stole a Vuelta from him. That Vingegaard was just better in the third week is something that they of course conveniently sweep under their carpets. It's also quite ironic, since Roglic is the one who has most benefitted from Jumbo and their strength in numbers. From Kuss saving a multitude of GCs, to Wout keeping him in yellow in Nice and Vingegaard basically gifting him a Dauphine when the latter was already better.
I don’t think there is any clear evidence that Vingegaard was stronger in the third week of this Vuelta or that he would have won that Dauphine. Roglic beat him on a previous mountain top finish and in the ITT. Vingegaard would have needed to beat him by 41 seconds on that stage to win the overall, and he set a career best on that climb as it was.

 
I don’t think there is any clear evidence that Vingegaard was stronger in the third week of this Vuelta or that he would have won that Dauphine. Roglic beat him on a previous mountain top finish and in the ITT. Vingegaard would have needed to beat him by 41 seconds on that stage to win the overall, and he set a career best on that climb as it was.

Those 40 seconds are including Vaujany, where Vingegaard was already doing the Lord's work and would definitely not lose any time in a scenario where they'd be facing one another. That's already a different picture.
 
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I don’t think there is any clear evidence that Vingegaard was stronger in the third week of this Vuelta or that he would have won that Dauphine. Roglic beat him on a previous mountain top finish and in the ITT. Vingegaard would have needed to beat him by 41 seconds on that stage to win the overall, and he set a career best on that climb as it was.

Agreed, no one knows for sure about that Dauphine. Vingegaard looked very, very comfortable with Roglic there and did much better in the tour afterwards, so most reason that he had alot left.

I think that Roglic and him are very close in a one week race and Jonas will have very poor chance's of beating Pogi in a one week race.

As to the third week in this Vuelta the only thing we can say with any serenity is that Roglic went all out on Angliru and Jonas looked comfortable following him (no pain face) the performance there is as far as I know nothing to special for Vingegaard.

I find it very hard to measure them against each other because Roglic almost always does just the minimum required and Vingegaard destroys.

When Roglic beats someone like Adam Yeats with a few seconds to take the win, is it because he can't do better? Or because he doesn't have to? I don't know. Jonas would distance him with minutes but that's his way. My point is, it's very hard to measure them against each other.
 
What one can say with certainty is that Vingegaard has been on an extremely high level in the last two tours. He and Pog have smashed the competition. And the other thing with Vingegaard is that he seems really consistent, hardly ever has a weak moment. Even in this Vuelta which he wasn't that prepared for he never really struggled in the mountains, not even when he was a bit sick during the first weak. It was only in the itt he lacked something.

Can Rogla reach Vinge's level in the tour? I'm a bit doubtful but I wouldn't fully rule it out. Like kn0s said he is a different rider from Vinge and a tour win by Rogla would probably look different.
 
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What one can say with certainty is that Vingegaard has been on an extremely high level in the last two tours. He and Pog have smashed the competition. And the other thing with Vingegaard is that he seems really consistent, hardly ever has a weak moment. Even in this Vuelta which he wasn't that prepared for he never really struggled in the mountains, not even when he was a bit sick during the first weak. It was only in the itt he lacked something.

Can Rogla reach Vinge's level in the tour? I'm a bit doubtful but I wouldn't fully rule it out. Like kn0s said he is a different rider from Vinge and a tour win by Rogla would probably look different.
Right. The problem for Roglic is that he rides a lot like pogi. Jonas wins because he is a different rider type. He doesn't rely on bonus seconds and sprint, but consistency and stamina.
 
"Quick, someone! Get Primoz' and Jonas' GT jerseys!"

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The ulmatite "troll move" would have been for Roglic and Vingegaard to rock up to the start in pink and yellow.