• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Teams & Riders Team Visma - Lease a Bike

Page 106 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
I've said this before, but I don't think winning 3 GTs in a year matters much in the sponsor search. If they win the Vuelta you won't suddenly have a potential multi million euro sponsor thinking: oh wait a minute, this is actually a pretty good team. If nobody's interested by now, they won't be interested by next month either.

I don't think their results are the problem, it's who gets these results. They're somewhere in the middle between a Dutch team and an international team. For a Dutch domestic sponsor the international stars aren't that interesting, and for an international sponsor the Dutch department doesn't add anything.

I agree they need a Dutch "flagship rider", to get the Dutch public (and Dutch sponsors) fully behind the team.

Problem is the only such Dutch rider around these days is Van Der Poel, and there is no way they are signing him with Van Aert in the team.

But they could of course sell Van Aert's contract to someone like Ineos, Bahrain or Soudal (not UAE), if they managed to pick up Van Der Poel ;)
 
For what? In the end it will be the same....just pogacar and vingegaard. It's more a question of pogacar have better legs than Vingegaard.

Only if they all ride for Pogacar in the traditional sense.

But if they show up with an aggressive "wolfpack" mindset, and lieutenants start hitting breaks the first week (like Kuss did at the Vuelta), they can conceivably put Vingegaard under pressure later in the race, if he is Jumbo's only guy for GC.

Thus I think they need Roglic at the Tour next year - but whether he will accept riding as No 2 is of course the question.
 
Only if they all ride for Pogacar in the traditional sense.

But if they show up with an aggressive "wolfpack" mindset, and lieutenants start hitting breaks the first week (like Kuss did at the Vuelta), they can conceivably put Vingegaard under pressure later in the race, if he is Jumbo's only guy for GC.

Thus I think they need Roglic at the Tour next year - but whether he will accept riding as No 2 is of course the question.
Jumbo Visma has a great team to neutralize possible dangerous breaks. A team with guys like laporte, van aert, van baarle, nathan, control very easily the race. Then, in the mountains, kuss can make the necessary job, they will also have jorgenson next year, they also have kelderman. A team like this is enough even if emirates takes pogacar, ayuso, almeida and yates to the tour.
 
Jumbo Visma has a great team to neutralize possible dangerous breaks. A team with guys like laporte, van aert, van baarle, nathan, control very easily the race. Then, in the mountains, kuss can make the necessary job, they will also have jorgenson next year, they also have kelderman. A team like this is enough even if emirates takes pogacar, ayuso, almeida and yates to the tour.

I disagree, and I think it is going to happen, because 3 of the first 5 stages of the Tour are opportunities for lieutenants to take time, especially with Pogacar probably having (finally) learned his lesson and riding the first week conservatively, rather than going for stage wins and minor time gaps - and stage 5 is an ITT perfectly suited for both Pogacar, Ayuso, Yates and Almeida.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan
I disagree, and I think it is going to happen, because 3 of the first 5 stages of the Tour are opportunities for lieutenants to take time, especially with Pogacar probably having (finally) learned his lesson and riding the first week conservatively, rather than going for stage wins and minor time gaps - and stage 5 is an ITT perfectly suited for both Pogacar, Ayuso, Yates and Almeida.
We don't know yet all the route of the Tour. Yes, there will be a ITT, but it's in the last stage, not in stage 5.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SHAD0W93
We don't know yet all the route of the Tour. Yes, there will be a ITT, but it's in the last stage, not in stage 5.
Yes we do know stage 5 is an ITT.

 
Something I've been wondering.
Could the agreement before the Angliru stage simply have been "Whoever's in red after the stage, is who we ride for the rest of the race."?
And, if the full agreement was that they should all just ride the best they could, and Vingegaard actually could have dropped Roglic, then he didn't actually follow the agreement. Otoh, maybe he felt like he got some cheap time the previous day, so he held back.
 
I disagree, and I think it is going to happen, because 3 of the first 5 stages of the Tour are opportunities for lieutenants to take time, especially with Pogacar probably having (finally) learned his lesson and riding the first week conservatively, rather than going for stage wins and minor time gaps - and stage 5 is an ITT perfectly suited for both Pogacar, Ayuso, Yates and Almeida.
A complicating factor could be that (according to Dutch journalist Thijs Zonneveld) both Ayuso and Almeida have written in their contract that they never have to work for Pogacar. That's why you never see them together in a race.
 
If one day Grischa says "Show the world who's the strongest" the race is over. It's obviously an encoded message to You Know Who to push 7 w/kg.

In this Vuelta, Grischa Niermann 'showed the world who's the strongest', aka himself.

Everything that happened here within Jumbo (Kuss getting his huge advantage, Vingegaard leapfrogging Rog in GC) was down to his decisions in the team car.

I guess he wanted Vinge to win & didn't anticipate Kuss becoming an internet phenomenon (the Captain Tom of pro cycling), i.e. there's an interview from a few days ago where he almost laments (reading between the lines) how Kuss seems to have the favor of the public.
 
In this Vuelta, Grischa Niermann 'showed the world who's the strongest', aka himself.

Everything that happened here within Jumbo (Kuss getting his huge advantage, Vingegaard leapfrogging Rog in GC) was down to his decisions in the team car.

I guess he wanted Vinge to win & didn't anticipate Kuss becoming an internet phenomenon (the Captain Tom of pro cycling), i.e. there's an interview from a few days ago where he almost laments (reading between the lines) how Kuss seems to have the favor of the public.
Oh god, now it's Niermann again who's the evildoer.
 
In this Vuelta, Grischa Niermann 'showed the world who's the strongest', aka himself.

Everything that happened here within Jumbo (Kuss getting his huge advantage, Vingegaard leapfrogging Rog in GC) was down to his decisions in the team car.

I guess he wanted Vinge to win & didn't anticipate Kuss becoming an internet phenomenon (the Captain Tom of pro cycling), i.e. there's an interview from a few days ago where he almost laments (reading between the lines) how Kuss seems to have the favor of the public.

However at the race's conclusion:
1) Vingo, despite 8-seconds gap, didn't attack the leader but helped him.
2) He also didn't fight to the end for the prestigious Angliru win.
So the race winner is the same as it would've been without this JV beef. Kuss attacked to bait Remco as JV expected a stronger opposition initially (and I don't think anyone in the team was opposing that).
 
However at the race's conclusion:
1) Vingo, despite 8-seconds gap, didn't attack the leader but helped him.
2) He also didn't fight to the end for the prestigious Angliru win.
So the race winner is the same as it would've been without this JV beef. Kuss attacked to bait Remco as JV expected a stronger opposition initially (and I don't think anyone in the team was opposing that).
Yes, in hindsight it's quite funny that the Kuss breakaway was actually to test Quickstep. Boy, did Quickstep fail the test ;)
 
However at the race's conclusion:
1) Vingo, despite 8-seconds gap, didn't attack the leader but helped him.
2) He also didn't fight to the end for the prestigious Angliru win.
So the race winner is the same as it would've been without this JV beef. Kuss attacked to bait Remco as JV expected a stronger opposition initially (and I don't think anyone in the team was opposing that).
Yeah, and instead of fighting or trying... Remco just gave up. I think it was a strategic move. He got his "hero" moment on the day after his "collapse". Then winning another stage, three in total, and the KOM. Remco is probably "happy" with that. He has been in the spotlight throughout the whole race. His persona and brand has probably only expanded. He can live another season on the "what if". He just had a "bad" day. Otherwhise he would have challenged! Him and the sport benefits from that narrative.

Kuss is probably over the moon.

"Losers" are Vinge and Roglic in the end. I bet they are really mad but has to fall in line.

There is so much to digest and think about what happened in this race.
 
Yes, in hindsight it's quite funny that the Kuss breakaway was actually to test Quickstep. Boy, did Quickstep fail the test ;)

Not gonna lie, tomorrow I'd like to see another plot twist in JV story. The stage will be crazy, maybe Primoz and Jonas will tell themselves "f**k Grischa, let's dance with Remco in the breakaway". Imagine the drama! Not gonna happen though.
 
Last edited:
My (very intuitive) take:
During the Tourmalet / Bejes stages, Vingegaard attacked mainly to win the stage. Especially in the Bejes stage, he got way more time than he thought he would get, because there was no chase at all for some time. Whether or not Vingegaard attacked before his turn, I don't know (see further). Vingegaard came to the Vuelta as back-up for Roglic, and to keep riding a bit (his calendar wasn't very full until the Tour), or his season would have been very short and without goals after July. So he didn't really have any fixed targets in this Vuelta (a GC win was no must), and his whole body language was one of being relaxed.
Roglic... he came to the Vuelta with way more ambition. He was the first GC guy. As he had already won the Giro, he could start without stress, and he was (and obviously is) in great shape. The problems started at Javalambre. Vingegaard could follow him (easily). Next, Vingegaard attacked in 2 stages and thus was intervening with Roglic' GC plans, and took away 2 opportunities from Roglic to attack / win a stage, on Tourmalet and Bejes. Roglic wanted to show his shape (he didn't train for nothing) by conquering Angliru. Vingegaard duly followed, but you already saw that Vingegaard was on crossroads: Vingegaard wanted to just follow Roglic and not force it, but he understood that this would as well end Kuss' hopes of the GC win.

So in the end, Vingegaard was the buffer that kept Roglic at bay, and he is such a good buffer that he easily could have won himself, but he showed everyone he didn't have to win and was happy with Kuss in GC lead. Roglic was more into the 'I want show everyone what they expect from me = race and win' mentality. But he also realizes that he can't shake Vingegaard, and that Vingegaard will thus win if Roglic attacks / drops Kuss again.
 
My (very intuitive) take:
During the Tourmalet / Bejes stages, Vingegaard attacked mainly to win the stage. Especially in the Bejes stage, he got way more time than he thought he would get, because there was no chase at all for some time. Whether or not Vingegaard attacked before his turn, I don't know (see further). Vingegaard came to the Vuelta as back-up for Roglic, and to keep riding a bit (his calendar wasn't very full until the Tour), or his season would have been very short and without goals after July. So he didn't really have any fixed targets in this Vuelta (a GC win was no must), and his whole body language was one of being relaxed.
Roglic... he came to the Vuelta with way more ambition. He was the first GC guy. As he had already won the Giro, he could start without stress, and he was (and obviously is) in great shape. The problems started at Javalambre. Vingegaard could follow him (easily). Next, Vingegaard attacked in 2 stages and thus was intervening with Roglic' GC plans, and took away 2 opportunities from Roglic to attack / win a stage, on Tourmalet and Bejes. Roglic wanted to show his shape (he didn't train for nothing) by conquering Angliru. Vingegaard duly followed, but you already saw that Vingegaard was on crossroads: Vingegaard wanted to just follow Roglic and not force it, but he understood that this would as well end Kuss' hopes of the GC win.

So in the end, Vingegaard was the buffer that kept Roglic at bay, and he is such a good buffer that he easily could have won himself, but he showed everyone he didn't have to win and was happy with Kuss in GC lead. Roglic was more into the 'I want show everyone what they expect from me = race and win' mentality. But he also realizes that he can't shake Vingegaard, and that Vingegaard will thus win if Roglic attacks / drops Kuss again.

The time trial is a bit of thorn in this theory though, because Roglič was 50 seconds ahead of Vingegaard in GC before the team started meddling with their positions on the Tourmalet stage.

'Normally' without the team car orchestrating the race, Vingegaard would have to drop Rog in the mountains. But we never saw that fight.
 
  • Like
Reactions: acm