Tenerife

[Wallace and Gromit]

We've learnt a lot in the past 12 days. The passport which was hailed by many as the change in cycling does little to "dampen" doping.

I think we've only learnt that certain people at the UCI abused their position to ensure Lance's blood data relating to the the 2009 season didn't get examined when it was known to them to be suspicious. I don't think we've learnt anything new about the effectiveness of the passport in the general case, though.

 

[thehog]

I think we've only learnt that certain people at the UCI abused their position to ensure Lance's blood data relating to the the 2009 season didn't get examined when it was known to them to be suspicious. I don't think we've learnt anything new about the effectiveness of the passport in the general case, though.

?

You're right. This was only a Lance issue.

Above and beyond this incident the Passport run by the UCI is watertight!

Seriously? You're defending the UCI.

 

[oldcrank]

You're an intelligent guy. You know this. Probability says Top 20, Top 10 at any one Grand Tour is doping. No dispute.

Sounds like you are saying Greg LeMond doped. Your buddy Lance
has one million US dollars waiting for you. You could do a lot of
horsinabout with that kind of money.

 

[thehog]

Sounds like you are saying Greg LeMond doped. Your buddy Lance
has one million US dollars waiting for you. You could do a lot of
horsinabout with that kind of money.

Ahhh yes throw in the extreme argument and see how that flies?

As I stated. Blood vector doping as of '93 has seen Top 20, Top 10 at any one GT doping. This is not speculation but fact.

Unless you're telling me there's not been doping from 93-2012?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

?

You're right. This was only a Lance issue.

Above and beyond this incident the Passport run by the UCI is watertight!

Seriously? You're defending the UCI.

I think the UCI is a bunch of crooks, but that's a side issue.

You were saying that we'd learnt a lot in the last 12 days about the effectiveness of the passport in general. We haven't. If Lance needed special treatment to evade the passport in 2009 then that kind of hints that the passport, when applied, is effective to a reasonable degree. (If not, why would Lance need help dodging it?)

 

[oldcrank]

You're an intelligent guy. You know this. Probability says Top 20, Top 10 at any one Grand Tour is doping. No dispute.

No mention of 93-2012 or blood-vector doping in your statement.
Your buddy Lance should be calling anytime.

 

[thehog]

I think the UCI is a bunch of crooks, but that's a side issue.

You were saying that we'd learnt a lot in the last 12 days about the effectiveness of the passport in general. We haven't. If Lance needed special treatment to evade the passport in 2009 then that kind of hints that the passport, when applied, is effective to a reasonable degree. (If not, why would Lance need help dodging it?)

??

Yes we have. Apparently the "software" didn't pick up the obvious blood doping. Armstrong's profile didn't even make it to the experts.

So...

1) The passport doesn't work - period. As the software is not sophisticated enough to pick up obvious doping.

or

2) The UCi hand picked Armstrong's profile off the system so it wouldn't be passed on tot he experts.


Either way it demonstrates that the passport is not a method to catch or even limit dope cheats.

 

[thehog]

Sure that's one view. A very limited view.

Doping at the blood vector level has been around since 93.

Just because cyclists and their Doctors have found a method to jack the passport after its inception doesn't make altitude riding a falsehood.

Like microdosing. The introduction of the EPO test didn't mean that doping stopped. The method was adapted to fit.

I think you're better than this. You're obviously an intelligent guy. I think with some thought and analysis of Armstrong's profile you'll see where altitude fits in.

Thanks.

No mention of 93-2012 or blood-vector doping in your statement.
Your buddy Lance should be calling anytime.

You obviously don't read.

 

[horsinabout]

Sounds like you are saying Greg LeMond doped. Your buddy Lance
has one million US dollars waiting for you. You could do a lot of
horsinabout with that kind of money.

Lets go to Tenarif and get juiced...havin a laugh...

 

[oldcrank]

You're wasting your time by wasting your time?

Think you've broken your own personal conventions. You might need to confess at your local Parish.

Now to be fair to the content of your post. I have no idea what point you're making or what it is you are saying. I'm fairly sure you don't know what point you're making either,

I ask; open your mind. Cyclists dope. They dope a lot. Of those who go to altitude inevitably all of them dope. That's not science just statistics.

You're an intelligent guy. You know this. Probability says Top 20, Top 10 at any one Grand Tour is doping. No dispute.

Thanks.

Greg LeMond doesn't agree with either you or your buddy Lance.
Greg thinks you can win a Grand Tour clean. You and your good
buddy Lance don't.

 

[thehog]

Greg LeMond doesn't agree with either you or your buddy Lance.
Greg thinks you can win a Grand Tour clean. You and your good
buddy Lance don't.

Of course you CAN win a Grand Tour clean.

On the proviso that the entire field is clean.

With such a shaky passport system, the free for all in Tenerife along with a complicit Governing body you're not going to get a clean field.

Lance is right. In the modern era you can't win a GT clean. I agree with Armstrong. He's not stupid.

Pat McQuaid also thinks GT can be won clean. He's the pillar of straightest and ethics.

Is he your buddy?

“Cycling is one of the world’s most popular sports, both for participants and spectators, and it has a bright future. Those who will define that future can be found among the current generation of riders who have chosen to prove that you can compete and win clean.”

 

[Tom T.]

Andy is off the Mallorca to "train". Why do I think we'll see an improvement in form when he's back?

 

[DirtyWorks]

You were saying that we'd learnt a lot in the last 12 days about the effectiveness of the passport in general. We haven't.

Who is we? You maybe, but I suspect you don't want facts getting in the way of your opinion.

Here's a couple to get you started:
http://www.businessweek.com/article...t-s-dot-postal-team-get-charged-with-fraud#p2

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...irst-nine-of-Armstrongs-38-blood-results.aspx

If Lance needed special treatment to evade the passport in 2009 then that kind of hints that the passport, when applied, is effective to a reasonable degree. (If not, why would Lance need help dodging it?)

Another failed argument. The UCI picks the riders and the tests. The system keeps the riders they like never testing positive. That's the system and it's been verified this week.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Which riders are spending all year round in such places???

Wouldn't it be nice ADAMS was for the grand public to know?

In 2010 Tenerife is dopers heaven, nowadays it is just a great place to train!
http://redkiteprayer.com/tag/eufemiano-fuentes/

Damn, forgot only Vino goes there to dope.

Greg LeMond doesn't agree with either you or your buddy Lance.
Greg thinks you can win a Grand Tour clean. You and your good
buddy Lance don't.

Greg thought Landis was clean in 2006, he also sometimes is wrong.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

??

Yes we have. Apparently the "software" didn't pick up the obvious blood doping. Armstrong's profile didn't even make it to the experts.

So...

1) The passport doesn't work - period. As the software is not sophisticated enough to pick up obvious doping.

or

2) The UCi hand picked Armstrong's profile off the system so it wouldn't be passed on tot he experts.


Either way it demonstrates that the passport is not a method to catch or even limit dope cheats.

You could be right here. My interpretation from reading the recent disclosures is that the UCI's previous pronouncements had related to there being manual as well as computer screening of the blood data prior to the decision to send the data to the panel of experts. (This is how Pelitzotti went down.)

The recent disclosures shift the blame to the computer screening as a cover story for them not sending (by choice) Lance's obviously dodgy 2009 data to the expert panel.

I'm still not entirely convinced that the conclusion should be Lance dodged the passport in 2009 because it's inherently seriously flawed rather than Lance dodged the passport in 2009 because he got a favour from the UCI.

It's not good, either way.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Andy is off the Mallorca to "train". Why do I think we'll see an improvement in form when he's back?

He could hardly get much worse to be fair

 

[oldcrank]

accusations or insinuations of sockpuppety lead to a ban.

First and final warning

Give it a rest.

From
sittingbison

 

[horsinabout]

Greg LeMond doesn't agree with either you or your buddy Lance.
Greg thinks you can win a Grand Tour clean. You and your good
buddy Lance don't.

One word ...Bullsh*it

On Oprah Lance said "the whole thing has been a lie" and what he meant was just that, the WHOLE THING. This is the one truth that man uttered...

 

[thehog]

You could be right here. My interpretation from reading the recent disclosures is that the UCI's previous pronouncements had related to there being manual as well as computer screening of the blood data prior to the decision to send the data to the panel of experts. (This is how Pelitzotti went down.)

The recent disclosures shift the blame to the computer screening as a cover story for them not sending (by choice) Lance's obviously dodgy 2009 data to the expert panel.

I'm still not entirely convinced that the conclusion should be Lance dodged the passport in 2009 because it's inherently seriously flawed rather than Lance dodged the passport in 2009 because he got a favour from the UCI.

It's not good, either way.

It's an issue of compliance, regulation and ethics. The systems needs to be water tight and each athlete treated fairly and evenly.

The Pellizotti and Baredo cases are good examples. Why did those two get selected and others not?

Both doping but are they any different than others? Popp? Lance etc.?

If the UCI has the ability to decide who gets reviewed and who doesn't then it's flawed. There's too much room for error, corruption and underhandedness. If they did it for Lance then have they done it for others? We may never know but it certainly doesn't promote the system as fair or offer any confidence in anti-doping.

The worrying part is now many dirty athletes have been pulled from the system and been given a "pass"?

We will probably never know.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Andy is off the Mallorca to "train". Why do I think we'll see an improvement in form when he's back?

Probably a drop out of form, that will inevitably lead to a reinfusion of form later in the season...

 

[thehog]

Wouldn't it be nice ADAMS was for the grand public to know?

In 2010 Tenerife is dopers heaven, nowadays it is just a great place to train!
http://redkiteprayer.com/tag/eufemiano-fuentes/

Damn, forgot only Vino goes there to dope.Greg thought Landis was clean in 2006, he also sometimes is wrong.

Funny that all the Spanish riders are considered "dodgy" but the Anglo riders are falling over themselves to train in Spain!

 

[oldcrank]

One word ...Bullsh*it

That is working class language, and from a "sister" too.
Any chance you're from Kilburn?

 

[del1962]

Funny that all the Spanish riders are considered "dodgy" but the Anglo riders are falling over themselves to train in Spain!

I think it was you that in one thread actually called on a Spaniard to dope.

 

[horsinabout]

That is working class language, and from a "sister" too.
Any chance you're from Kilburn?

Well it's down to earth plain speaking, in that sense working class, although to refer certain language to a catagory like "working class" is to stereotype. And are sister's expected to refrain from plain speaking? Times have not changed that much I see.

 

[oldcrank]

And are sister's expected to refrain from plain speaking?

Certainly not. Plain speaking is fine with me. As I recall
there are some posters on this forum that do not approve
of plain speaking from Tour de France champions though,
but that may have been before you were following cycling.

Last warning. No assertions or sly insinuations of sockpuppetry. Keep it to PM or the one suitable thread