Tenerife

[thehog]

Just for a laugh, will you predict the ascent times for the big guns in this year's Tour stage with the dual passage of Alpe D'Huez?

I say approx 46-48 minutes first time up and 41-42 minutes second time up. Definitely much more 1980s than 1990s, I think.

As the passport can easily be beaten although it appears it slightly “restrain” doping or leaves it to the “money” teams only. Along with the demolition job done in last year’s Tour then many wil be back into the full swing and yes climbing speeds of the early 2000’s will be back. Not far off. TT’ing most certainly is already back at those levels.

 

[thehog]

65 Daniele Ratto (Ita) Cannondale Pro Cycling 0:07:33
66 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling

Under the radar?

 

[Krebs cycle]

Wiggins, 2009:

Training locations: Manchester, England. Girona, Spain.

TdF finish: 4th, behind known dopers.

Please, tell me more about altitude training and its necessity to do well when racing at altitude.

How predictable, another strawman argument. Do you even know what a strawman argument is?

 

[Krebs cycle]

The eternal question:

How come the "Altitude Training" can be such "indispensable" nowadays for GC riders- and yet having riders born,raised,trained & currently living above 2500 mts ASL are beaten by the ones just going at altitude during "training camps" only?

Oh look, it's another strawman argument.


read and learn something.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[thehog]

How predictable, another strawman argument. Do you even know what a strawman argument is?

Less strawman and more; presentable evidence in what appears to be "beyond reasonable explainable performance".

Do you have a problem with facts?

Thank-you.

 

[thehog]

Yawn. I was having some fun. Try it some time

Try? I'm naturally humorous. No need to try.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Less strawman and more; presentable evidence in what appears to be "beyond reasonable explainable performance".

Do you have a problem with facts?

Thank-you.

I don't get paid to educate you. I'm not going to waste my time responding to strawman arguments. The presentable facts regarding altitude training are very very clear. If you conduct a period of altitude acclimatisation prior to competition at altitude, you perform better. If you go to altitude and stay there for a week, you perform better than when you first arrived.

Asking why Wiggins was able to come 4th in 2009 despite not training at altitude is a strawman argument. It does not refute the fact that altitude acclimatisation improves performance at altitude (and can also improve sea level performance although the effect is less pronounced).

Similarly, asking why athletes born and raised at altitude do not always win either at altitude or sea level is also a strawman argument. It also does not refute the fact that altitude* has been shown on many occasions in controlled studies to improve performance.

*when I use the term "altitude" I am using it as an umbrella concept which encompasses various types of contemporary altitude/hypoxia methods eg: LHTL, LHTH, LLTH etc

 

[thehog]

I don't get paid to educate you. I'm not going to waste my time responding to strawman arguments. The presentable facts regarding altitude training are very very clear. If you conduct a period of altitude acclimatisation prior to competition at altitude, you perform better. If you go to altitude and stay there for a week, you perform better than when you first arrived.

Asking why Wiggins was able to come 4th in 2009 despite not training at altitude is a strawman argument. It does not refute the fact that altitude acclimatisation improves performance at altitude (and can also improve sea level performance although the effect is less pronounced).

Similarly, asking why athletes born and raised at altitude do not always win either at altitude or sea level is also a strawman argument. It also does not refute the fact that altitude* has been shown on many occasions in controlled studies to improve performance.

*when I use the term "altitude" I am using it as an umbrella concept which encompasses various types of contemporary altitude/hypoxia methods eg: LHTL, LHTH, LLTH etc

But you're already wasting your time and not getting paid. So go on; show us. You're intelligent guy. I'm willing to listen to what you have to have to say,

So let me read what you wrote...
...
....
......
.......

So in totality you're saying that training improves "performance". Well done.

You really have to offer a lot more before you write off arguments as "strawman". That's a cop out and very much a limited view point.

Those who work in science have their minds open to a number or possible reasons for results. They're not closed minded as you appear to be...

Open up.

 

[Krebs cycle]

But you're already wasting your time and not getting paid. So go on; show us. You're intelligent guy. I'm willing to listen to what you have to have to say,

true I am wasting my time. I don't want to waste any more of it answering questions such as "why don't athletes born and raised at altitude always beat athletes who were born and raised at sea level?".

The answer to that question is multifactorial. Maybe they just aren't as good, maybe they didn't prepare properly, maybe they are preparing for something else. Even Dear wiggo provides an accurate answer here (for once).... you can't train as hard at altitude as you can at sea level.

Fact remains though that there is a strong tendency for athletes born and raised at altitude to perform relatively strongly when competition is held at altitude. Fact remains that various forms of altitude training have been shown to enhance endurance performance at both sea level and altitude.

 

[thehog]

true I am wasting my time. I don't want to waste any more of it answering questions such as "why don't athletes born and raised at altitude always beat athletes who were born and raised at sea level?".

The answer to that question is multifactorial. Maybe they just aren't as good, maybe they didn't prepare properly, maybe they are preparing for something else. Even Dear wiggo provides an accurate answer here (for once).... you can't train as hard at altitude as you can at sea level.

Fact remains though that there is a strong tendency for athletes born and raised at altitude to perform relatively strongly when competition is held at altitude. Fact remains that various forms of altitude training have been shown to enhance endurance performance at both sea level and altitude.

You're wasting your time by wasting your time?

Think you've broken your own personal conventions. You might need to confess at your local Parish.

Now to be fair to the content of your post. I have no idea what point you're making or what it is you are saying. I'm fairly sure you don't know what point you're making either,

I ask; open your mind. Cyclists dope. They dope a lot. Of those who go to altitude inevitably all of them dope. That's not science just statistics.

You're an intelligent guy. You know this. Probability says Top 20, Top 10 at any one Grand Tour is doping. No dispute.

Thanks.

 

[131313]

I can't believe you guys are still talking about this? If all of the revelations of the last year have taught us anything, it's that you don't have to go to some far-away remote haven to dope. You can dope just fine pretty much anywhere, whether it's San Jose, Greenville or Tenerife.

Pro cyclists don't go to Tenerife to dope, dope goes to Tenerife because there are pro cyclists there. Simple.

BTW, proximity to the lab means nothing. The testers don't work out of the labs, they're typically independent contractors and they could live anywhere. The samples are just shipped FedEx.

 

[thehog]

I can't believe you guys are still talking about this? If all of the revelations of the last year have taught us anything, it's that you don't have to go to some far-away remote haven to dope. You can dope just fine pretty much anywhere, whether it's San Jose, Greenville or Tenerife.

Pro cyclists don't go to Tenerife to dope, dope goes to Tenerife because there are pro cyclists there. Simple.

BTW, proximity to the lab means nothing. The testers don't work out of the labs, they're typically independent contractors and they could live anywhere. The samples are just shipped FedEx.

Agree with all that.

Alas the benefits of training at altitude assist the overall program.

 

[peterst6906]

... the benefits of training at altitude assist the overall program.

For clean riders as well as dopers.

 

[hfer07]

I don't get paid to educate you. I'm not going to waste my time responding to strawman arguments. The presentable facts regarding altitude training are very very clear. If you conduct a period of altitude acclimatisation prior to competition at altitude, you perform better. If you go to altitude and stay there for a week, you perform better than when you first arrived.

do you claim that from personal experience or research?

Asking why Wiggins was able to come 4th in 2009 despite not training at altitude is a strawman argument. It does not refute the fact that altitude acclimatisation improves performance at altitude (and can also improve sea level performance although the effect is less pronounced).

Similarly, asking why athletes born and raised at altitude do not always win either at altitude or sea level is also a strawman argument. It also does not refute the fact that altitude* has been shown on many occasions in controlled studies to improve performance.

*when I use the term "altitude" I am using it as an umbrella concept which encompasses various types of contemporary altitude/hypoxia methods eg: LHTL, LHTH, LLTH etc

but you just stated it- If your training gains are obtained by altitude-then the most significant results will be shown when "competing in "Altitude"- so do you know how many times a GT reaches "altitude"? twice the most-and yet you have certain teams making absurd improvements "in all areas" by "hitting Tene for a week" twice or three times a year, with your rational set that Altitude is the ultimate resource to get results........... good luck with that BS

 

[Ferminal]

From what I've read altitude training definitely benefits you when it comes to performing at altitude. There is less certainty about the benefits of altitude on competition at sea level.

That would make it more relevant (this year) to the Giro than the Tour.

 

[sittingbison]

looking at Armstrongs 2009 blood values (thanks to captainbag) the one that really stands out is immediately after the Giro.

It was given a free pass because it was at altitude, which disguises its a major EPO doping and blood withdrawal period before the Tour, at shich he resorts to blood bags and microdosing to not trigger the lower score.

So although 131313 is correct, Dr Ferrari is using the altitude training to mask major EPO doping and blood withdrawal, becuase he knows how the system and the automatic computer controls work.

Leinders??

 

[ebandit]

?

I ask; open your mind. Cyclists dope. They dope a lot. Of those who go to altitude inevitably all of them dope. That's not science just statistics.

Thanks.

hoggie have i read this correctly? cyclists who go to altitude.....inevitably all

of them dope?

you sure................gonna back up this outrageous statement?

hardly seems such an open minded response

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

hoggie have i read this correctly? cyclists who go to altitude.....inevitably all

of them dope?

you sure..............gonna back up this outrageous statement?

hardly seems such an open minded response

He, the stalker is back!

Bandito, what does high altitude with ones blood?
Now, please read the following:
http://gerard.cc/

and specifically note these sentences:

To explain in very simplistic terms, the biological passport is an ever narrowing noose, as the test values that are picked up along the way create a profile of what is “normal” for this particular athlete. So if you’re tested the first time, a value for a human may be anywhere form 0 to 100. If you score 75 on that first test, then we can safely say you should never be below 50. So now your bandwidth for the second test goes from 50-100 instead of from 0-100 as it was for the first test. If that second test is 80, then we know the first test was not an anomaly]

and try to figure out why Tenerife, Sierra Nevada, add any u like, are so popular. Could it be they try to manipulate the BP?

 

[zalacain]

If Wiggins was based in Girona in 2009 as a previous post suggests he would have found it easy to obviate the need for altitude training.

 

[ebandit]

fearless

He, the stalker is back!

you see stalker..........i see genuine question...........who is fearless?

i read that parameters for bio passport can change..........NOT all

riders going to altitude inevitably dope

 

[pmcg76]

He, the stalker is back!

Bandito, what does high altitude with ones blood?
Now, please read the following:
http://gerard.cc/

and specifically note these sentences:


and try to figure out why Tenerife, Sierra Nevada, add any u like, are so popular. Could it be they try to manipulate the BP?

But all those places were incredibly popular for training long before the BP came into effect so that proves nothing. If guys suddenly started going to altitude post 08, that would be more logical but then that is not the case.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

But all those places were incredibly popular for training long before the BP came into effect so that proves nothing. If guys suddenly started going to altitude post 08, that would be more logical but then that is not the case.

I know, Rooks and Theunisse [you remember 'zakje bloed'] loved to go there as well, but not the whole of the season.

 

[pmcg76]

I know, Rooks and Theunisse [you remember 'zakje bloed'] loved to go there as well, but not the whole of the season.

Which riders are spending all year round in such places???

 

[ebandit]

tdf

Which riders are spending all year round in such places???

those who don't spend 3 weeks at the giro ...........tdf...........vuelta or

other races..............tourists! wish it were me

 

[thehog]

But all those places were incredibly popular for training long before the BP came into effect so that proves nothing. If guys suddenly started going to altitude post 08, that would be more logical but then that is not the case.

Very popular from 1999 to 2005.

Then 2011 to present day.

Your logic is not logical.

Like the EPO test. The riders adapted the new methods into their programs and training.

Similar to altitude. Tenerife is a great place to train. It's also a great place to keep your hemocrit high and lodge into ADAMS you're at altitude. Any tests conducted in and around this period are factored for altitude.

It's not rocket science what's going on.

Cyclists went to Tenerife prior to the passport to dope, keep their hemocrits high and avoid detection.


We've learnt a lot in the past 12 days. The passport which was hailed by many as the change in cycling does little to "dampen" doping.