Tenerife

[TheGame]

Would Tenerife to Madrid be considered an internal flight, if so then there should not be much differences between check in times, boarding controls, customs etc.

Most of Europe now is considered an internal flight, you can take trains freely between countries with virtually no controls, at most airports its purely security checks and x-ray, only Britain that I have visited has real serious customs and passport controls.

 

[thehog]

Most of Europe now is considered an internal flight, you can take trains freely between countries with virtually no controls, at most airports its purely security checks and x-ray, only Britain that I have visited has real serious customs and passport controls.

You can take trains to islands off Europe?

Inspectors board trains as well as inspect cargo. It's a fallacy of the carefree Eurail days of moving between countries without inspection.

 

[Arnout]

Would Tenerife to Madrid be considered an internal flight, if so then there should not be much differences between check in times, boarding controls, customs etc.

Yeah, there are cheap (budget) flights from all over Europe to Tenerife and Gran Canaria, as well as regular links from many cities in Spain (including Girona ). I've never really understood the obsession with Tenerife. In terms of accessibility it doesn't compare with places like Hawaii or Malaysia or wherever.

 

[Arnout]

You can take trains to islands off Europe?

Inspectors board trains as well as inspect cargo. It's a fallacy of the carefree Eurail days of moving between countries without inspection.

The border is the only place where we aren't controlled by the government these days.

Well thats not true, every border crossing is monitored with cameras and such. If you are evading tax, better not cross the border in your own car.

 

[TheGame]

You can take trains to islands off Europe?

Inspectors board trains as well as inspect cargo. It's a fallacy of the carefree Eurail days of moving between countries without inspection.

I have traveled extensively in Europe and the only time Ive been checked to any great level was on entry into mainland Britain.

You know exactly what I mean. Crossing national borders in Europe is in most cases no more complicated than crossing State Lines in the US. Your repeated claims of Tenerife being one of the most inaccessible places on earth are inaccurate, the island is no more inaccessible than Miami or Houston.

Although I'm sure you can turn the easily negotiated border crossings in Europe into an argument that doping is rife in European culture.

 

[Ferminal]

I have traveled extensively in Europe and the only time Ive been checked to any great level was on entry into mainland Britain.

You know exactly what I mean. Crossing national borders in Europe is in most cases no more complicated than crossing State Lines in the US. Your repeated claims of Tenerife being one of the most inaccessible places on earth are inaccurate, the island is no more inaccessible than Miami or Houston.

Although I'm sure you can turn the easily negotiated border crossings in Europe into an argument that doping is rife in European culture.

Could you move blood on a flight? Seems a bit risky, best strategy would be withdraw before training camp, somewhere like Tenerife would be the best place for post-withdrawal.

 

[thehog]

I have traveled extensively in Europe and the only time Ive been checked to any great level was on entry into mainland Britain.

You know exactly what I mean. Crossing national borders in Europe is in most cases no more complicated than crossing State Lines in the US. Your repeated claims of Tenerife being one of the most inaccessible places on earth are inaccurate, the island is no more inaccessible than Miami or Houston.

Although I'm sure you can turn the easily negotiated border crossings in Europe into an argument that doping is rife in European culture.

I make no claims. Just ask valid questions.

My position has changed on Tenerife. I no longer think its a dopers paradise.

I do however feel its a way to "jack" the passport and hence why it's used.

Doping on the island, yes. But not in a manner which is unusual. It just can be covered by the altitude. Free pass on the passport.

The last 15 days have been most interesting in cycling. It's taught me a lot and demonstrated I was right about many assertions made.

 

[TheGame]

I make no claims. Just ask valid questions.

My position has changed on Tenerife. I no longer think its a dopers paradise.

I do however feel its a way to "jack" the passport and hence why it's used.

Doping on the island, yes. But not in a manner which is unusual. It just can be covered by the altitude. Free pass on the passport.

The last 15 days have been most interesting in cycling. It's taught me a lot and demonstrated I was right about many assertions made.

Im glad to see you are big enough to admit the assertions you made that were wrong.

Could you move blood on a flight? Seems a bit risky, best strategy would be withdraw before training camp, somewhere like Tenerife would be the best place for post-withdrawal.

I imagine almost impossible on a flight unless you had authorisation such as a tester would have. Another reason why Tenerife is an unlikely choice for doping, hard to get blood bags in and out. Drugs easier. But generally, If you want to transport blood or drugs around Europe, train or car is by far your best option.

 

[peterst6906]

Could you move blood on a flight? Seems a bit risky, best strategy would be withdraw before training camp, somewhere like Tenerife would be the best place for post-withdrawal.

Not saying this is indicative of anything more than a single event, but I was involved in a situation where we moved blood on two flights in Europe, taking the samples packed in nothing more than a foam cooler/esky by hand carry, through security screening and all.

That was 2006 and involved boarding the initial flight in Prague, flying to Frankfurt and then to Schipol.

We weren't challenged at all at any screening point (in Prague only). The cooler was placed in an overhead locker above our seats and between flights we sat with it at a restaurant in Frankfurt airport.

It makes me laugh when I think about it now, especially given what we were doing and why we had the blood.

I would hope it wouldn't be able to be done now and I would think the riders probably value their blood more than we did ours, so a different approach might be safer.

 

[thehog]

Im glad to see you are big enough to admit the assertions you made that were wrong.



I imagine almost impossible on a flight unless you had authorisation such as a tester would have. Another reason why Tenerife is an unlikely choice for doping, hard to get blood bags in and out. Drugs easier. But generally, If you want to transport blood or drugs around Europe, train or car is by far your best option.

No need to be sensitive. No one is right or wrong. We learn more as the information evolves.

What Ashenden uncovered this week is groundbreaking.

The passport is worthless. The discovery of the real use of altitude to cover doping is telling.

It's no victory. It's just a other nail in the coffin of Pro-mafia cycling.

That is all. Cycling is no cleaner today than is was in 2005 or 1999.

Sorry. But it's the truth.

 

[Krebs cycle]

The passport is worthless. The discovery of the real use of altitude to cover doping is telling.


Sorry. But it's the truth.

Sorry hog but the truth is that altitude training can improve endurance performance, and when competition is performed at altitude (as most mtn stages are) it most certainly improves performance. That is why elite endurance athletes the world over have been using altitude training for over 30yrs.... yes that would be 30yrs before the biopassport ever existed.

 

[thehog]

Sorry hog but the truth is that altitude training can improve endurance performance, and when competition is performed at altitude (as most mtn stages are) it most certainly improves performance. That is why elite endurance athletes the world over have been using altitude training for over 30yrs.... yes that would be 30yrs before the biopassport ever existed.

Sure that's one view. A very limited view.

Doping at the blood vector level has been around since 93.

Just because cyclists and their Doctors have found a method to jack the passport after its inception doesn't make altitude riding a falsehood.

Like microdosing. The introduction of the EPO test didn't mean that doping stopped. The method was adapted to fit.

I think you're better than this. You're obviously an intelligent guy. I think with some thought and analysis of Armstrong's profile you'll see where altitude fits in.

Thanks.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Sure that's one view. A very limited view.

Doping at the blood vector level has been around since 93.

Just because cyclists and their Doctors have found a method to jack the passport after its inception doesn't make altitude riding a falsehood.

Like microdosing. The introduction of the EPO test didn't mean that doping stopped. The method was adapted to fit.

I think you're better than this. You're obviously an intelligent guy. I think with some thought and analysis of Armstrong's profile you'll see where altitude fits in.

Thanks.

I agree 100% that altitude can be used to "trick" the biopassport in exactly the same way microdosing does.... ie: increase retics slightly following an infusion. But that doesn't automatically mean that anyone and everyone who goes to altitude MUST be doping. Regardless of whether or not you are doping, it is virtually imperative to do some training at altitude if you want to compete successfully in any race with high mtn stages. You are at a distinct disadvantage if you don't.

Same goes for competition in the heat. Heat acclimatization causes plasma volume expansion which could offset an increase in [Hb] resulting from doping. Does that mean everyone who does heat acclimtisation is a doper? Of course not, because heat acclimatisation improves performance in the heat.

 

[hfer07]

I agree 100% that altitude can be used to "trick" the biopassport in exactly the same way microdosing does.... ie: increase retics slightly following an infusion. But that doesn't automatically mean that anyone and everyone who goes to altitude MUST be doping. Regardless of whether or not you are doping, it is virtually imperative to do some training at altitude if you want to compete successfully in any race with high mtn stages. You are at a distinct disadvantage if you don't.

The eternal question:

How come the "Altitude Training" can be such "indispensable" nowadays for GC riders- and yet having riders born,raised,trained & currently living above 2500 mts ASL are beaten by the ones just going at altitude during "training camps" only?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I agree 100% that altitude can be used to "trick" the biopassport in exactly the same way microdosing does.... ie: increase retics slightly following an infusion. But that doesn't automatically mean that anyone and everyone who goes to altitude MUST be doping. Regardless of whether or not you are doping, it is virtually imperative to do some training at altitude if you want to compete successfully in any race with high mtn stages. You are at a distinct disadvantage if you don't.

Wiggins, 2009:

Training locations: Manchester, England. Girona, Spain.

TdF finish: 4th, behind known dopers.

Please, tell me more about altitude training and its necessity to do well when racing at altitude.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The eternal question:

How come the "Altitude Training" can be such "indispensable" nowadays for GC riders- and yet having riders born,raised,trained & currently living above 2500 mts ASL are beaten by the ones just going at altitude during "training camps" only?

Marginal gains, mate. And superior, world class, 4 minute physiology.

 

[ElChingon]

Sorry hog but the truth is that altitude training can improve endurance performance, and when competition is performed at altitude (as most mtn stages are) it most certainly improves performance. That is why elite endurance athletes the world over have been using altitude training for over 30yrs.... yes that would be 30yrs before the biopassport ever existed.

Improves it but it does not last forever, its also not instantly beneficial. Racing also deteriorates the racers and no GT with all MTF's isn't going to end up making any racer better than when they started.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Improves it but it does not last forever, its also not instantly beneficial. Racing also deteriorates the racers and no GT with all MTF's isn't going to end up making any racer better than when they started.

On the contrary. Altitude training is actually immediately hurtful to the riders, as recovery (natural that is, ie unassisted) is reduced significantly. Difficult to sleep properly, nausea, lots of other negative symptoms possible. Altitude sickness is not good for training and if you succumb, you're not going to enjoy it one bit.

 

[simo1733]

Just as with drugs, sone athletes respond much better to altitude than others.

 

[hfer07]

Marginal gains, mate. And superior, world class, 4 minute physiology.

care to elaborate?
common sense leads to believe the ones coming from altitude have the upper hand-not the other way around-but hey-in today's sporting world, a rider living at sea level suddenly is a superior climber than the ones living in the mountains due to "marginal gains" ....... LOL-cheers!!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

care to elaborate?
common sense leads to believe the ones coming from altitude have the upper hand-not the other way around-but hey-in today's sporting world, a rider living at sea level suddenly is a superior climber than the ones living in the mountains due to "marginal gains" ....... LOL-cheers!!

Sarcasm, with the invisible emoticon.

The Kenyans who live and train and sleep at altitude also lose their Hgb advantages when staying at sea level, so it's not unheard of that someone with better physiology can out ride them, depending on a whole host of factors.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Ah another thread discussing Wiggins, cool

 

[Arnout]

What do you expect from someone with such a rediculous username.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ah another thread discussing Wiggins, cool

Another snide post from a Wiggins / Sky lover Brit. Cool.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Well then don't lead every thread on the forum into yet another discussion on Wiggins, which are generally re-covering old ground anyway. There's a Wiggins thread, there's a Sky thread, discuss it there