Tenerife

[Benotti69]

It would appear that Tenerife has a 'set up' that works for teams. Whether that is because they have someone who can forewarn them of OOC testing or the cops on Tenerife are blind to the doping or whatever, but it sure aint used for the weather.

 

[thehog]

Reminds me of the time this happened: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...nt-pair-lied-about-bike-accident-2281985.html

It has taken the best part of seven years – virtually the span of two Olympiads – but the law has finally caught up with Kostas Kenteris and Katerina Thanou. A court in Athens yesterday found the retired sprinters guilty of making false statements about an alleged motorcycle accident they had cited as the reason for missing drugs tests on the eve of the 2004 Olympics in the Greek capital. They could have been jailed for up to four years but received suspended sentences of 31 months.

 

[Bala Verde]

Reminds me of the time this happened: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...nt-pair-lied-about-bike-accident-2281985.html

lol faking an accident; that's so amateurish. Real pros just say they are taking a shower, so if you can please wait 20m - getting my towel, need to dry off - thank you very much.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It would appear that Tenerife has a 'set up' that works for teams. Whether that is because they have someone who can forewarn them of OOC testing or the cops on Tenerife are blind to the doping or whatever, but it sure aint used for the weather.

It sure isn't used for performance increase due to the effects of altitude either. Thanks to veloclinic for posting the link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23502972

It appears that exposure time must exceed 2 weeks at an altitude of more than 4,000 m to exert a statistically significant effect.

4,000 meters!!!! The highest peak is reported at about 3700m. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Topographic_map_of_Tenerife-en.svg

 

[DirtyWorks]

I comes down to one word. Altitude

Whoops! Maybe not. Those darn meta-studies are getting in the way.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23502972

It appears that exposure time must exceed 2 weeks at an altitude of more than 4,000 m to exert a statistically significant effect.

4,000 meters!!!! The highest peak is reported at about 3700m. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Topographic_map_of_Tenerife-en.svg

<Insert fail sound\>

They need another excuse. Ephemeral twins and false anatomical claims have already been used. They could claim the water has special minerals that give some advantage. Combine it with some beet juice and it's like EPO and blood bags.

Not that Astana's management would ever condone PEDs or withdraw blood for re-infusion later.... Never!

 

[ToreBear]

Whoops! Maybe not. Those darn meta-studies are getting in the way.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23502972

It appears that exposure time must exceed 2 weeks at an altitude of more than 4,000 m to exert a statistically significant effect.

4,000 meters!!!! The highest peak is reported at about 3700m. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Topographic_map_of_Tenerife-en.svg

<Insert fail sound\>

They need another excuse. Ephemeral twins and false anatomical claims have already been used. They could claim the water has special minerals that give some advantage. Combine it with some beet juice and it's like EPO and blood bags.

Not that Astana's management would ever condone PEDs or withdraw blood for re-infusion later.... Never!

You can't make bombastic declarations based on one study even if it calls it self a meta study. There are huge individual differences in response to altitude training.

You also can not randomly draw a sample from the general population and make conclusion about what does and does not work. Some find it beneficial others don't. Some sports use it more while others don't.

Also in cycling, there are often decisive events happening on climbs where the air is thin. Knowing your own response to thin air is essential if you are to for example attack. If you misjudge how quickly the lactate comes, you are in a lot of trouble.

 

[Benotti69]

You can't make bombastic declarations based on one study even if it calls it self a meta study. There are huge individual differences in response to altitude training.

You also can not randomly draw a sample from the general population and make conclusion about what does and does not work. Some find it beneficial others don't. Some sports use it more while others don't.

Also in cycling, there are often decisive events happening on climbs where the air is thin. Knowing your own response to thin air is essential if you are to for example attack. If you misjudge how quickly the lactate comes, you are in a lot of trouble.

And you dont need to travel to Tenerife in June to find out all that when nearly all the climbs of the TdF are open. So why travel there? Is it because doping there is easier and not a crime? I think so.

 

[ToreBear]

And you dont need to travel to Tenerife in June to find out all that when nearly all the climbs of the TdF are open. So why travel there? Is it because doping there is easier and not a crime? I think so.

The weather there is quite stable year round. No extremes, and perhaps the traffic situation is safer.

There were laws passed in 2006 after puerto I think. And there is a new law that was passed last week.

So it's not like it's a free for all. In Armstrong's time(pre 2006) it was, but things have changed.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/spain-passes-anti-doping-law-145651923--oly.html

http://www.euronews.com/2013/06/13/spain-s-new-anti-doping-law/

And to be frank, if you are hiding from testers, it's one of the worst places to hide, with two full size airports with plenty of connections on a small Island.

 

[Benotti69]

The weather there is quite stable year round. No extremes, and perhaps the traffic situation is safer.

The traffic jams in the Alps, Dolomites and Appenines are terrible

There were laws passed in 2006 after puerto I think. And there is a new law that was passed last week.

Yeah, I see Girona is no longer the centre for the Anglosaxons due to the new law and Fuentes has been locked up with the key thrown away and Contador did time for his positive.

And to be frank, if you are hiding from testers, it's one of the worst places to hide, with two full size airports with plenty of connections on a small Island.

Teams have been going there for a long time. If the system works why change? Have not heard of anyone testing positive or missing ooc tests in Tenerife

 

[thehog]

The traffic jams in the Alps, Dolomites and Appenines are terrible



Yeah, I see Girona is no longer the centre for the Anglosaxons due to the new law and Fuentes has been locked up with the key thrown away and Contador did time for his positive.




Teams have been going there for a long time. If the system works why change? Have not heard of anyone testing positive or missing ooc tests in Tenerife

One of the best posts I've read in a long time!

Very good

 

[Frosty]

The traffic jams in the Alps, Dolomites and Appenines are terrible



Yeah, I see Girona is no longer the centre for the Anglosaxons due to the new law and Fuentes has been locked up with the key thrown away and Contador did time for his positive.




Teams have been going there for a long time. If the system works why change? Have not heard of anyone testing positive or missing ooc tests in Tenerife

Not the same as testing positive perhaps but one of Pellizotti's bio-passport anomalies was in Tenerife.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6097/Decision-in-Pellizotti-passport-case-expected-today.aspx

Although i guess in some minds, no positive tests = rampant drug taking happens but it gets covered up, positive tests = rampant drug taking taking place .... Win-win situation

 

[42x16ss]

And you dont need to travel to Tenerife in June to find out all that when nearly all the climbs of the TdF are open. So why travel there? Is it because doping there is easier and not a crime? I think so.

It helps when Europe is having one of it's snowiest springs in years though. Did you watch the Giro d' Italia

Cyclists are going to dope where the training is good and it's pretty darn good in Tenerife. How does this thread get to 40 pages?

 

[BroDeal]

Whoops! Maybe not. Those darn meta-studies are getting in the way.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23502972

It appears that exposure time must exceed 2 weeks at an altitude of more than 4,000 m to exert a statistically significant effect.

4,000 meters!!!! The highest peak is reported at about 3700m. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Topographic_map_of_Tenerife-en.svg

Uh-oh. The hotel these guys like to stay at is only at 2300 meters. Maybe they should come to Colorado.

If this was really for altitude training then why don't the teams buy hypobaric chambers or altitude tents and train all over europe?

 

[42x16ss]

Uh-oh. The hotel these guys like to stay at is only at 2300 meters. Maybe they should come to Colorado.

If this was really for altitude training then why don't the teams buy hypobaric chambers or altitude tents and train all over europe?

They probably already do. Problem is the weather has been $hitty this spring, so why not do your mountain reps somewhere a little warmer?

If I didn't want to be troubled by testers I'd try and find some good climbs over east in the Caucasus Mountains (if suitable climbs exist). OOC testers would get a serious case of the CBF's for sure.

 

[Ripper]

Uh-oh. The hotel these guys like to stay at is only at 2300 meters. Maybe they should come to Colorado.

If this was really for altitude training then why don't the teams buy hypobaric chambers or altitude tents and train all over europe?

It's more of TK Crazy Innovative Scientific Training Method kinda sorta (TKISTMks).

That, and no base training, 95% all year and then mega-peak, train on a hot sunny mountain all the time, etc.

Swimming coaches

 

[Ripper]

Yeah, I see Girona is no longer the centre for the Anglosaxons due to the new law and Fuentes has been locked up with the key thrown away and Contador did time for his positive.

Anglosaxons don't dope. Just ask Paddy McGoof.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Whoops! Maybe not. Those darn meta-studies are getting in the way.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23502972

It appears that exposure time must exceed 2 weeks at an altitude of more than 4,000 m to exert a statistically significant effect.

4,000 meters!!!! The highest peak is reported at about 3700m. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Topographic_map_of_Tenerife-en.svg

<Insert fail sound\>

They need another excuse. Ephemeral twins and false anatomical claims have already been used. They could claim the water has special minerals that give some advantage. Combine it with some beet juice and it's like EPO and blood bags.

Not that Astana's management would ever condone PEDs or withdraw blood for re-infusion later.... Never!

I realise some of you guys really dislike my occasional intrusions into the clinic, but I see it as my job to set the record straight from time to time. You can choose to call a spade a spade and simply accept the science for what it is, or you can ignore what is relevant and cherry pick data that fits nicely into some pre-conceived bias.

Thank you for posting the link to meta-analysis above. This is important because it reveals that using altitude for the sole purpose of chasing a red cell volume gain is no easy task. It is possible and achievable, but the results in the literature remain controversial. The AIS in Australia published a series of studies within the last 3-5yrs showing increases in total hemoglobin mass with around 3-4 weeks LHTL at altitude below 3000m. However, more recently a couple of european research groups haven't been able to replicate those findings. The use of altitude for enhancing sea level performance has always been inconclusive and it still is. But whilst that meta-analysis is great, the fact is that it isn't ALL about red cell volume.

Altitude acclimatization for enhancing performance AT ALTITUDE is a different kettle of fish. There is over 30yrs of research showing that submaximal exercise performance especially, improves over time at altitude. This is indisputable and it can occur within a week. There is also evidence that a period of altitude acclimatisation can lead to faster adaptation in a subsequent sojourn weeks later.

Given that the TdF is generally decided on the mountainside at altitudes anywhere from 1000-2000m on long sustained climbs ie: submaximal intensity level, then altitude training for preparing for the tour will always remain relevant. How do you train on high mountain passes in europe though throughout the winter when its snowing and zero temperatures? There is new evidence that shows some of the detrimental effects of altitude training can be partially offset by training in the heat (they have opposing effects on plasma volume for example).

Dope or not dope, training at altitude in warm and sunny Tenerife is a damn good place to prepare for a GT.

 

[42x16ss]

I realise some of you guys really dislike my occasional intrusions into the clinic, but I see it as my job to set the record straight from time to time. You can choose to call a spade a spade and simply accept the science for what it is, or you can ignore what is relevant and cherry pick data that fits nicely into some pre-conceived bias.

Thank you for posting the link to meta-analysis above. This is important because it reveals that using altitude for the sole purpose of chasing a red cell volume gain is no easy task. It is possible and achievable, but the results in the literature remain controversial. The AIS in Australia published a series of studies within the last 3-5yrs showing increases in total hemoglobin mass with around 3-4 weeks LHTL at altitude below 3000m. However, more recently a couple of european research groups haven't been able to replicate those findings. The use of altitude for enhancing sea level performance has always been inconclusive and it still is. But whilst that meta-analysis is great, the fact is that it isn't ALL about red cell volume.

Altitude acclimatization for enhancing performance AT ALTITUDE is a different kettle of fish. There is over 30yrs of research showing that submaximal exercise performance especially, improves over time at altitude. This is indisputable and it can occur within a week. There is also evidence that a period of altitude acclimatisation can lead to faster adaptation in a subsequent sojourn weeks later.

Given that the TdF is generally decided on the mountainside at altitudes anywhere from 1000-2000m on long sustained climbs ie: submaximal intensity level, then altitude training for preparing for the tour will always remain relevant. How do you train on high mountain passes in europe though throughout the winter when its snowing and zero temperatures? There is new evidence that shows some of the detrimental effects of altitude training can be partially offset by training in the heat (they have opposing effects on plasma volume for example).

Dope or not dope, training at altitude in warm and sunny Tenerife is a damn good place to prepare for a GT.

Nope, all wrong.

One of the things I've learned from this forum is that spring training must be done in the snow, on frozen climbs, risking black ice, rain, mud etc. Not somewhere with great weather, good climbs and roads, cheap hotels - that would be cheating.

Anything else is less than transparent. Apparently doping doctors and products are only available in one place in Europe - Freiburg? Red herring. Fuentes' Madrid clinic? Smokescreen. Ferrari's campervan? Actually a houseboat.

You can only trust pro's that stick to the tried and true old school winter training methods. After all they were good enough Anquetil, Coppi, Merckx, Bartali, Bobet, Bahamontes etc and they were all squeaky clean

 

[Ferminal]

How will he survive altitude training at St Moritz or Stelvio?

I'm sure this is the reason if Contador or Evans or whoever doesn't go to the Canaries fails to win next month.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I realise some of you guys really dislike my occasional intrusions into the clinic, but I see it as my job to set the record straight from time to time. You can choose to call a spade a spade and simply accept the science for what it is, or you can ignore what is relevant and cherry pick data that fits nicely into some pre-conceived bias.

Thank you for posting the link to meta-analysis above. This is important because it reveals that using altitude for the sole purpose of chasing a red cell volume gain is no easy task. It is possible and achievable, but the results in the literature remain controversial. The AIS in Australia published a series of studies within the last 3-5yrs showing increases in total hemoglobin mass with around 3-4 weeks LHTL at altitude below 3000m. However, more recently a couple of european research groups haven't been able to replicate those findings. The use of altitude for enhancing sea level performance has always been inconclusive and it still is. But whilst that meta-analysis is great, the fact is that it isn't ALL about red cell volume.

Altitude acclimatization for enhancing performance AT ALTITUDE is a different kettle of fish. There is over 30yrs of research showing that submaximal exercise performance especially, improves over time at altitude. This is indisputable and it can occur within a week. There is also evidence that a period of altitude acclimatisation can lead to faster adaptation in a subsequent sojourn weeks later.

Given that the TdF is generally decided on the mountainside at altitudes anywhere from 1000-2000m on long sustained climbs ie: submaximal intensity level, then altitude training for preparing for the tour will always remain relevant. How do you train on high mountain passes in europe though throughout the winter when its snowing and zero temperatures? There is new evidence that shows some of the detrimental effects of altitude training can be partially offset by training in the heat (they have opposing effects on plasma volume for example).

Dope or not dope, training at altitude in warm and sunny Tenerife is a damn good place to prepare for a GT.

Your posts are always appreciated by some here Krebs. Informed and informative, thanks.

 

[The_Captain]

Without discounting other possible influential factors of why they're there in the first place, surely if it's where you train in the winter, it's logical to continue there in the summer? *Just* going there in the summer would be far more suspicious.

 

[Benotti69]

It helps when Europe is having one of it's snowiest springs in years though. Did you watch the Giro d' Italia

Cyclists are going to dope where the training is good and it's pretty darn good in Tenerife. How does this thread get to 40 pages?

I dont see the training a pretty good. How can you prepare for Alpe D'Huez in Tenerife? Only reason to 'prepare' in Tenerife is doping.

Yeah I watched Il Giro. Most of the roads for the TdF are open. Now is the time to be in France training, but isn't is a criminal offence to dope in France, oops better nip over to Tenerife where as i said the teams have a system set up that allows them to get on with the darker side to their training.

 

[Benotti69]

Nope, all wrong.

snipped


After all they were good enough Anquetil, Coppi, Merckx, Bartali, Bobet, Bahamontes etc and they were all squeaky clean

It is my understanding Bartali didn't dope.

But most of those guys managed to race on worse roads and in worse condition than todays pros.

Training at altitude during the winter brings no benefit whatsoever to bear on a performance in the summer.

Teams go Tenerife to dope.

 

[JRTinMA]

I dont see the training a pretty good. How can you prepare for Alpe D'Huez in Tenerife? Only reason to 'prepare' in Tenerife is doping.

Yeah I watched Il Giro. Most of the roads for the TdF are open. Now is the time to be in France training, but isn't is a criminal offence to dope in France, oops better nip over to Tenerife where as i said the teams have a system set up that allows them to get on with the darker side to their training.

Because the highest peak on Tenerife is 4000 feet higher than Alpe d'huez?

 

[Benotti69]

Without discounting other possible influential factors of why they're there in the first place, surely if it's where you train in the winter, it's logical to continue there in the summer? *Just* going there in the summer would be far more suspicious.

With how the season has gone so far weather wise, it makes no sense to prepare in Tenerife. Teams should be preparing the wet weather and warm clothing for races and ability to ride in the wet!

But nope it is the dope that leads them there.