Tennis

[JimmyFingers]

Wow for a minute there I thought I clicked on the tennis thread, my bad

 

[thrawn]

I was at the Federer match yesterday. Stakhovsky played incredibly well. I think there were definite signs yesterday of Federer's age catching up with him though. His reactions and movement seemed a bit slower. Obviously Stakhovsky playing a serve volley game was well suited to taking advantage of this.

RE: the withdrawals and retirements, very odd...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

At the weekend Farah ran the last 400 of a 5000 metres in 50 point. which is in the range of women 400 specialists. If you saw it, you'd open a thread on it. #justsaying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XCmEqSGpjY

Watch at the bell.

The top distance runners are all very fast over 400m by the standards of normal mortals.

Fernando Mamede who held the 10k WR in the 80s ran the 4*4 in the OGs in his youth.

Seb Coe was a sub 46s 400m runner. He once ran 47s for the second lap of an 800m, after a 60s first lap.

Steve Ovett ran 47.5s for 400m aged 17.

Olaf Beyer, who beat Coe and Ovett in the 1978 Euro 800m ran 2 400s, 30 minutes apart in training in 47.3s and 47.5s. And he didn't appear in the Stasi doping files.

Cram ran a sub 50s last lap in a slow 1500m, and still got beaten!

Farah's last lap after a very slow first 4600m didn't seem particularly unusual given that in major championship races the final lap is usually ~53s, on the back of 2 or 3 fast laps immediately beforehand.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Back to tennis for a minute (if noone minds).

Can anyone explain why there has not been a single men's player breakthrough in the last four or five years? It seems ridiculous that in a sport which has normally been dominated by younger men that we now have exactly the same players at the top as we did 5 years ago. I'm not just talking about the big 4 but other players such as Del Potro, Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga, Wawrinka, Gasquet, Haas, Simon, Cilic. Are the top, richer players able to afford to get on programmes that the youngsters cannot compete with?

 

[SeriousSam]

unlikely. again, this isn't cycling. differences in ped use can't account for all of the difference in results. gasquet for instance is simply a lot better at hitting the ball and controlling his shots than players ranked lower than him.

 

[SundayRider]

unlikely. again, this isn't cycling. differences in ped use can't account for all of the difference in results. gasquet for instance is simply a lot better at hitting the ball and controlling his shots than players ranked lower than him.

Exactly! Although undoubtedly Tennis has it's problems, doping probably makes less of a difference in Tennis than it does in many mainstream sports. Rugby (both codes), Athletics, Triathlon, Swimming, Boxing are all likely to have bigger problems IMO.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I was at the Federer match yesterday. Stakhovsky played incredibly well. I think there were definite signs yesterday of Federer's age catching up with him though. His reactions and movement seemed a bit slower. Obviously Stakhovsky playing a serve volley game was well suited to taking advantage of this.

RE: the withdrawals and retirements, very odd...

This was the discussion I was expecting, possibly in reference to this:

Unrelated facts

Mar-13 ITF introducing biopassport

Jun-13 Lots of players underperforming/retiring at Wimbledon

Lifted from another forum

 

[thrawn]

Back to tennis for a minute (if noone minds).

Can anyone explain why there has not been a single men's player breakthrough in the last four or five years? It seems ridiculous that in a sport which has normally been dominated by younger men that we now have exactly the same players at the top as we did 5 years ago. I'm not just talking about the big 4 but other players such as Del Potro, Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga, Wawrinka, Gasquet, Haas, Simon, Cilic. Are the top, richer players able to afford to get on programmes that the youngsters cannot compete with?

I suspect this may be the case. Not only that, but there is an extreme lack of younger players (teens) in the top 100. Until a few years ago this is unprecedented. Tennis is a lot more physical than it was 15 years ago, making it harder for the younger kids to compete against the older guys on doping programs.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I am always reminded of thomas muster when opening this thread.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

7 former world #1s went out yesterday. A record for a Grand Slam. No real significance - I just like odd facts like this!

 

[The Hitch]

The top distance runners are all very fast over 400m by the standards of normal mortals.

Fernando Mamede who held the 10k WR in the 80s ran the 4*4 in the OGs in his youth.

Seb Coe was a sub 46s 400m runner. He once ran 47s for the second lap of an 800m, after a 60s first lap.

Steve Ovett ran 47.5s for 400m aged 17.

Olaf Beyer, who beat Coe and Ovett in the 1978 Euro 800m ran 2 400s, 30 minutes apart in training in 47.3s and 47.5s. And he didn't appear in the Stasi doping files.

Cram ran a sub 50s last lap in a slow 1500m, and still got beaten!

Farah's last lap after a very slow first 4600m didn't seem particularly unusual given that in major championship races the final lap is usually ~53s, on the back of 2 or 3 fast laps immediately beforehand.

You have to consider that the build for a long distance runner is different to that of middle distance runners, like those you mention.

 

[iejeecee]

Back to tennis for a minute (if noone minds).

Can anyone explain why there has not been a single men's player breakthrough in the last four or five years? It seems ridiculous that in a sport which has normally been dominated by younger men that we now have exactly the same players at the top as we did 5 years ago. I'm not just talking about the big 4 but other players such as Del Potro, Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga, Wawrinka, Gasquet, Haas, Simon, Cilic. Are the top, richer players able to afford to get on programmes that the youngsters cannot compete with?

Wasn't it the same in cycling several years ago, where the minimum age for winning a classic was 28+ or something.

Doping is so effective nowadays in equalizing/preventing physical degradation due to ageing and general wear and tear that athletes can compete with and stay the best far longer than before. You can see this effect in all sorts of sports around the world.

It shifts the balance more to experience where the older guys have a obvious advantage over the younger ones.

 

[blackcat]

Tennis Has A Steroid Problem has forced the ITA ATP WTF to make a move?

 

[blackcat]

Wasn't it the same in cycling several years ago, where the minimum age for winning a classic was 28+ or something.

Doping is so effective nowadays in equalizing/preventing physical degradation due to ageing and general wear and tear that athletes can compete with and stay the best far longer than before. You can see this effect in all sorts of sports around the world.

It shifts the balance more to experience where the older guys have a obvious advantage over the younger ones.

ferrer record age for making first Slam final

 

[blackcat]

Back to tennis for a minute (if noone minds).

Can anyone explain why there has not been a single men's player breakthrough in the last four or five years? It seems ridiculous that in a sport which has normally been dominated by younger men that we now have exactly the same players at the top as we did 5 years ago. I'm not just talking about the big 4 but other players such as Del Potro, Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga, Wawrinka, Gasquet, Haas, Simon, Cilic. Are the top, richer players able to afford to get on programmes that the youngsters cannot compete with?

bernie tomic has the talent.

but

not the work ethic
he is lazy and a bit of a w@nker
likes the easy life and has enough money never to worry, fast cars, money, and fast women
inherited the gene from his father who is the current jim pearce of tennis, or is it pierce.

thought he would be too slow from back of court, to defend. but with the dope, he managed to rectify his lack of speed, so it is not patent weakness. now merely mediocre. but he can control rallies and does not have to defend like others.

bernie tomic plays chess and squash. others are merely playing tennis. apart from Fed and Nole, my favourite player to watch, by a country mile. reminds me of john mcenroe. plays a different game to everyone else.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Wasn't it the same in cycling several years ago, where the minimum age for winning a classic was 28+ or something.

Doping is so effective nowadays in equalizing/preventing physical degradation due to ageing and general wear and tear that athletes can compete with and stay the best far longer than before. You can see this effect in all sorts of sports around the world.

It shifts the balance more to experience where the older guys have a obvious advantage over the younger ones.

Plus its the same in the women's game, Robson is the top ranked teenager I think and she's only 38 in the world. Not long ago most women were past their best by their mid 20s.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You have to consider that the build for a long distance runner is different to that of middle distance runners, like those you mention.

Indeed, but not much. The 800m/1500m guys can all churn out very respectable 5000m/10000m performances and vice-versa.

If you've got the speed to win over the middle distances then that's what you're likely to do, as racing over 10k can't be the most pleasant experience.

My guess is that Farah is slower as a 400m runner than the top middle distance guys, even though his final lap is fast compared to even top club runners' 400m efforts.

El Guerrouj easily outsprinted Bekele in the Athens 5000m, using his slightly superior speed that he needed to be at the top in 1500m to good effect. At the time, Bekele was pretty much the faster finisher amongst the regular 5k/10k merchants. El Guerrouj wasn't a noted sprinter in the 1500m though, prefering to go for the "long run for home".

Very fine margins at that level though.

 

[mikehammer67]

they were afraid of guerrouj when he moved up to 5000

he pipped bekele the year before for 2nd in paris world championships


farah and rupp have worked on the 400m speed
50s is fast(even off a slow race) and farah slows races down now at the front to utilise his last lap speed


the EAs will have to set a fast pace in moscow to have any chance not like london where they just made it easy by not taking him on

 

[Cycle Chic]

Be interesting to see who exits today.

I see Stosur is playing well but she was an early round loser at the French Open...has had time to dose up.

She isn't looking as STEROID Stosur as usual....she's deffo toned down the HGH.

 

[zastomito]

Back to tennis for a minute (if noone minds).

Can anyone explain why there has not been a single men's player breakthrough in the last four or five years? It seems ridiculous that in a sport which has normally been dominated by younger men that we now have exactly the same players at the top as we did 5 years ago. I'm not just talking about the big 4 but other players such as Del Potro, Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga, Wawrinka, Gasquet, Haas, Simon, Cilic. Are the top, richer players able to afford to get on programmes that the youngsters cannot compete with?

If you include Nadal, Djokovic and Murray (Gulbis also) and exclude Hass and Ferrer you get a group of players who are all 2 years apart, basically the same generation and all of them in the prime of their careers. Very talented generation and you could see that from the early age. Before them there was a lack of talent and depth thus No. 1 like Hewitt, Roddick, Johanson winning AO, etc. And the group of players coming through the junior ranks looks to be just as weak.

 

[wansteadimp]

Plus its the same in the women's game, Robson is the top ranked teenager I think and she's only 38 in the world. Not long ago most women were past their best by their mid 20s.

Sloane Stephens? I'm sure she's ranked higher, may not be a teenager any longer though.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Michael Llodra just withdrew...another exit.....WADA must deffo have issued the ITF or LTA with a warning....or maybe reps are there themselves.....as someone else stated as they were in Madrid athletics meeting.

 

[thrawn]

bernie tomic has the talent.

but

not the work ethic
he is lazy and a bit of a w@nker
likes the easy life and has enough money never to worry, fast cars, money, and fast women
inherited the gene from his father who is the current jim pearce of tennis, or is it pierce.

thought he would be too slow from back of court, to defend. but with the dope, he managed to rectify his lack of speed, so it is not patent weakness. now merely mediocre. but he can control rallies and does not have to defend like others.

bernie tomic plays chess and squash. others are merely playing tennis. apart from Fed and Nole, my favourite player to watch, by a country mile. reminds me of john mcenroe. plays a different game to everyone else.

True regarding Tomic. The only player of the younger generation to have a breakthrough result. Pity he's such a knob and has daddy issues otherwise it would be very easy to support him. I do still enjoy his playing style (when he tries).

There was a bit of a gap in generational talent between the Sampras/Agassi & Federer/Nadal eras. There were a couple of years ago where players like Hewitt could win. Even Thomas Johansson managed to win a slam. Worst player in recent history to ever win one. The best teenagers were still able to make the top 100 in those days though. That doesn't happen now.

Oh and thanks Jimmy, didn't realise the blood passport was introduced for tennis.

 

[mikehammer67]

Michael Llodra just withdrew...another exit.....WADA must deffo have issued the ITF or LTA with a warning....or maybe reps are there themselves.....as someone else stated as they were in Madrid athletics meeting.

is there a link for that?

 

[mikehammer67]

12:35Another day, another retirement sadly. Michael Llodra withdraws from his second-round match against Andreas Seppi after dropping the first set 7-5. Not sure of the reason...

http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/news/log/2013-06-27/201306271372323916739.html