Tennis

[blackcat]

indeed, up to the mid-third set the intensity was crazy.


like in cycling, in tennis too there's currently a group of ca. 4-5 athletes that really rip the field apart in terms of stamina.
i'd say nadal, djoker, murray, wawrinka and perhaps federer.

that said, these five are all formidable athletes to begin with.
I mean, guys like Berdych/Delpotro/Tsonga might be on the same program, but they will not be able to bridge the gap to those four/five, as they seem either physically less talented (Berdych/Delpo being slightly too tall) or simply much less skilled (Tsonga).

as for Federer, anyone knows when was the last time he won a five-setter against anyone of those four topdogs?

the top four, are the best defenders. they can hit a winner any time from a position of defense, and also, as implied there, switch a rally from a position of defending to the advantageous controlling position.

the other guys, on their day, they can beat the top 4, those top 10 can knock off anyone on their "on" day. But even the top four only rarely have their "on" day. The difference is, their normal day, is close to their best "on" day. And they have the best defense so you need an "on" day, over a grand slam which is best of 5 sets, and 6 matches to win the Slam. It becomes a war of attrition. So if you have the best defense, and your average day is close to your best "on" day, and you have your stamina threshold from dope to make the 6 rounds a war of attrition.

defense and dope and fitness and wars of attrition are closely related.

NB. anyone in the top 100 has the game to hit the top 4 off the court in a best-of-three match. Slams are best of five. (p'raps. Lleyton Hewitt no longer has the game to beat the top 4, nigh all other top100 do)

 

[go crazy]

I remember Djokovic from his early career. Always got tired, and he'd always end up losing in 3 or 4 sets because he would cramp, get tired, and just generally run out of gas. Now, he still gets tired naturally, but his apparent doping regimen allows him to power through. It's so obvious to me, just a lay person watching tennis at the slams only. Djokovic has natural tennis talent, but can only go so long before tiring. With whatever he's on, he overcomes the point at which his body naturally starts to tire. At the end of the second set in which Murray won, it looked like he reached that point (due to the insane hitting throughout the match). But pharmaceuticals to the rescue for good ol Djoker boy! Murray sure did get annoyed at his "gamesmanship"!

To me, he's the most obvious of the top guys, even more so than Rafa, just based on his history and how he used to be.

 

[zebedee]

they are all taking drugs.

but, they are not bad characters, of poor standing. Most on this forum, are never asserting they are criminal or of moral disrepute.

to those asserting drugs are the differences in matches:
this is impossible to ascertain.

I may be wrong, but my working thesis is 98% of the doping occurring is in the "build" phase. They do not import dope like the Wayne Odesnik. my assumption is he is the exception to the rule. http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/odesnik-busted-for-hgh.html

I might be deluded. The handlers and entourage of those major pros, would carry gear, and those on private planes, have easier access. see: Lance.

I am still of the opinion, the players dont take amphetamines or uppers or pot-belge on court, even when Serena was suspicious. Actually, I think I am talking myself around to the opposite pov and the more popular pov on this thread. If they are doing other stuff in their "build" phase which lasts 6 months in developing a new threshold in endurance power and speed, why would they not take a ephedrine at a set break, tho, I know they have a supervisor on the bathroom break, so when Nadal cheats by taking his breaks, he cannot pop a pill, or atleast, not surreptitiously.

I still think the most influential doping is in the build phase. 2010 was when Fernando Verdasco had a full *** Australian Open after training with Gil Reyes and Darren Cahill in Vegas with Adidas. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/sports/tennis/17adidas.html

Among the most suspicious signs (pointed out to me by an ATP player) are players taking extended breaks off tour and coming back supercharged. Agassi, Nadal, Williams and Henin would be prime examples.

The big name players will have highly tailored programmes. Lesser fry like Odesnik resort to sports injury and anti-ageing clinics or use the internet. There are tons of doctors around willing to administer or prescribe peds. It can be very strongly suspected that several top players including Safina, Ferrer and Errani were using one of cycling's top doctors - del Moral, described by Errani as the doctor who was 'good for everything'. The ITF, had if it wished to, had chances to catch all these clients of del Moral red-handed but decided to issue a feeble public warning instead.

There's some evidence of in-competition use - Odesnik and Mariano Puerta, for example, the latter one of a string of Argentines caught doping in-competition. Puerta and Canas were popped twice.

Personally, I think anti-doping in tennis is a lost cause until such time as there is structural change at WADA with super-enablers like Blatter, Bitti and so on shown the door and replaced by people and national anti-doping bodies who want to hunt and catch dopers. Ricci Bitti of the ITF doesn't like catching dopers and is critical of **** Pound's aggressively proactive approach.

 

[Andynonomous]

Personally, I think anti-doping in tennis is a lost cause until such time as there is structural change at WADA with super-enablers like Blatter, Bitti and so on shown the door and replaced by people and national anti-doping bodies who want to hunt and catch dopers. Ricci Bitti of the ITF doesn't like catching dopers and is critical of Richard Pound's aggressively proactive approach.

Agreed. I am certain Bitti knows what is going down, and actively protecting the biggest stars.

Tennis has the Bio-Passport now, so they know who is manipulating blood values, yet no targeting is being done. If there was targeting being done, they would have caught someone by now.

 

[the delgados]

I remember Djokovic from his early career. Always got tired, and he'd always end up losing in 3 or 4 sets because he would cramp, get tired, and just generally run out of gas. Now, he still gets tired naturally, but his apparent doping regimen allows him to power through. It's so obvious to me, just a lay person watching tennis at the slams only. Djokovic has natural tennis talent, but can only go so long before tiring. With whatever he's on, he overcomes the point at which his body naturally starts to tire. At the end of the second set in which Murray won, it looked like he reached that point (due to the insane hitting throughout the match). But pharmaceuticals to the rescue for good ol Djoker boy! Murray sure did get annoyed at his "gamesmanship"!

To me, he's the most obvious of the top guys, even more so than Rafa, just based on his history and how he used to be.

Speaking of lay persons watching tennis, a friend of mine pretty much humoured me by watching the Aussie open men's final. Near the end of the match she couldn't help but notice that Djokovic looked fresh as a daisy and asked if the guy ever got tired.
Djokovic is an amazing player who gets to absolutely every shot. Guy just wears opponents down. and 6-0 6-0 final set scores in consecutive matches against the best in the world pretty much says it all. Not normal.

 

[sniper]

Speaking of lay persons watching tennis, a friend of mine pretty much humoured me by watching the Aussie open men's final. Near the end of the match she couldn't help but notice that Djokovic looked fresh as a daisy and asked if the guy ever got tired.
Djokovic is an amazing player who gets to absolutely every shot. Guy just wears opponents down. and 6-0 6-0 final set scores in consecutive matches against the best in the world pretty much says it all. Not normal.

guys like Nadal, Murray, Djoker, Wawrinka, they're not even exquisitely talented in terms of technique.
if you compare their volleys and touch at the net to guys like federer, sampras, becker, edberg, Mcenroe...
different class.

 

[blackcat]

Among the most suspicious signs (pointed out to me by an ATP player) are players taking extended breaks off tour and coming back supercharged. Agassi, Nadal, Williams and Henin would be prime examples.

The big name players will have highly tailored programmes. Lesser fry like Odesnik resort to sports injury and anti-ageing clinics or use the internet. There are tons of doctors around willing to administer or prescribe peds. It can be very strongly suspected that several top players including Safina, Ferrer and Errani were using one of cycling's top doctors - del Moral, described by Errani as the doctor who was 'good for everything'. The ITF, had if it wished to, had chances to catch all these clients of del Moral red-handed but decided to issue a feeble public warning instead.

There's some evidence of in-competition use - Odesnik and Mariano Puerta, for example, the latter one of a string of Argentines caught doping in-competition. Puerta and Canas were popped twice.

Personally, I think anti-doping in tennis is a lost cause until such time as there is structural change at WADA with super-enablers like Blatter, Bitti and so on shown the door and replaced by people and national anti-doping bodies who want to hunt and catch dopers. Ricci Bitti of the ITF doesn't like catching dopers and is critical of **** Pound's aggressively proactive approach.

petr korda was before greg rusedski the canadian brit or brit canuck...

think it starts around lendl and becker. maybe the argentinian, the bull. cant remember his name. not vilas, that was not his name was it, that was another czech guy, the vilas, guillermo. no, sounds something not czech. quick, someone google it for me

 

[blackcat]

Thomas Muster took it to a new level, with the Spaniards then coming onstream. actually, Courier was before Muster.

Courier and Muster.

and i reckon Chang too, but not as crazy full ret@rd as the other two i previously name

 

[blackcat]

There's some evidence of in-competition use - Odesnik and Mariano Puerta, for example, the latter one of a string of Argentines caught doping in-competition. Puerta and Canas were popped twice.

the Argentines in the mid 2000s. if they were Americans, they skate. like agassi's meth under the carpet.

sweptundercarpeting

 

[sittingbison]

...maybe the argentinian, the bull....

do you mean Marcelo Rios, the Chilean?

Or perhaps David Nalbandian?

 

[Andynonomous]

petr korda was before greg rusedski the canadian brit or brit canuck...

think it starts around lendl and becker. maybe the argentinian, the bull. cant remember his name. not vilas, that was not his name was it, that was another czech guy, the vilas, guillermo. no, sounds something not czech. quick, someone google it for me

Ilie Nastase ? (Romanian)

Lendl was the first male player I was suspicious of.

 

[the delgados]

guys like Nadal, Murray, Djoker, Wawrinka, they're not even exquisitely talented in terms of technique.
if you compare their volleys and touch at the net to guys like federer, sampras, becker, edberg, Mcenroe...
different class.

I defer to your superior knowledge of tennis techniques. Seems to me that Djokovic can get to any shot played and put it wherever the hell he wants, no matter the angle.
Then again, most matches I see him play are against Raonic (I'm Canadian, eh) and it seems to me that Raonic is taken to school every single time he plays either Djokovic or Federer.
Those guys just seem to take tennis to another level when they play guys like Raonic.

 

[blackcat]

Ilie Nastase ? (Romanian)

Lendl was the first male player I was suspicious of.

sittingbison sry too be to lazy to google for myself, but thanks to Andymonymous it was Nastase who was the bull. that was my man. a few decades before i came onto this mortal coil.

 

[sublimit]

petr korda was before greg rusedski the canadian brit or brit canuck...

think it starts around lendl and becker. maybe the argentinian, the bull. cant remember his name. not vilas, that was not his name was it, that was another czech guy, the vilas, guillermo. no, sounds something not czech. quick, someone google it for me

Becker was a man child, I dont reckon the 17 year old Becker was on anything apart from the usual meat diet of schnitzel , sausages or whatever they eat out there. Plus he could play unlike so many others. Courier always worried me

 

[blackcat]

Becker was a man child, I dont reckon the 17 year old Becker was on anything apart from the usual meat diet of schnitzel , sausages or whatever they eat out there. Plus he could play unlike so many others. Courier always worried me

think there is a date when Becker started working with this guy. as a "teen"! I think, i may have one of those implanted and conspiratorial memory/thought things tho.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...the-celebrities-favourite-doctor-2288488.html

 

[robow7]

guys like Nadal, Murray, Djoker, Wawrinka, they're not even exquisitely talented in terms of technique.
if you compare their volleys and touch at the net to guys like federer, sampras, becker, edberg, Mcenroe...
different class.

The game has changed, touch is no longer necessary to win in today's game and even those former greats couldn't begin to make steady diet of coming into the net anymore. Probably the greatest two volleys of the more modern era, Mac and Edberg easily admit this. You have to be very selective and not make it a habit in order to keep the element of surprise to the passer. The racquet and string technology allow the opposition to pass you even 12 feet behind the baseline on the run and stretched out. Poly strings allow you create so much spin and hit out with so much pace and yet keep the ball in and likewise court angles with only gut that were rarely seen are now common place.

And I disagree, they're exquisitely talented in technique, Stananimal, possibly the best one handed backhand (definitely one of the most powerful of all time) and Nadal with his whip like forehand (though admittingly not a classic follow though) will go down as one of most punishing ever.

 

[sniper]

The game has changed, touch is no longer necessary to win in today's game and even those former greats couldn't begin to make steady diet of coming into the net anymore. Probably the greatest two volleys of the more modern era, Mac and Edberg easily admit this. You have to be very selective and not make it a habit in order to keep the element of surprise to the passer. The racquet and string technology allow the opposition to pass you even 12 feet behind the baseline on the run and stretched out. Poly strings allow you create so much spin and hit out with so much pace and yet keep the ball in and court angles with only gut that were rarely seen are now common place.

this indeed, plus the increased doping of course. (and not saying Mac and Edberg didn't dope, but it clearly went from low to high octane)

And I disagree, they're exquisitely talented in technique, Stananimal, possibly the best one handed backhand (definitely one of the most powerful of all time) and Nadal with his whip like forehand (though admittingly not a classic follow though) will go down as one of most punishing ever.

agreed on Stan's backhand, that's quality.
Djoker and Murray also have a quality sliced backhand.
But their volleying, come on, that's just crap compared to what we used to see from the likes of Edberg and Federer.

Did you see Djoker try and process that half volley in the final?
Didn't know what to do with it.
May of course be a lack of practice, but still it's hard denying these guys don't come anywhere near Sampras/Federer/Edberg/McEnroe et al. in terms of 'touch'.

 

[robow7]

I think the only drugs Mac, Borg, Gerulaitis and that generation were on was the white stuff you stick up your nose. There wasn't likely a lot of ped's at that time. Lendl is hard to say, he was such a fitness-holic but he may have tapped into the roids for recuperative purposes, but it sure wasn't the anabolic to build mass. I don't really see that much until Agassi doubled his chest size and of course the guys now that seem to have unlimited batteries to go forever but I could be wrong, the stuff could have been there but at least they didn't go full *** as some have done since.

 

[blackcat]

I think the only drugs Mac, Borg, Gerulaitis and that generation were on was the white stuff you stick up your nose. There wasn't likely a lot of ped's at that time. Lendl is hard to say, he was such a fitness-holic but he may have tapped into the roids for recuperative purposes, but it sure wasn't the anabolic to build mass. I don't really see that much until Agassi doubled his chest size and of course the guys now that seem to have unlimited batteries to go forever but I could be wrong, the stuff could have been there but at least they didn't go full *** as some have done since.

Courier and Muster gave Nadal and uncle Toni the schema to follow.

 

[del1962]

I think the only drugs Mac, Borg, Gerulaitis and that generation were on was the white stuff you stick up your nose. There wasn't likely a lot of ped's at that time. Lendl is hard to say, he was such a fitness-holic but he may have tapped into the roids for recuperative purposes, but it sure wasn't the anabolic to build mass. I don't really see that much until Agassi doubled his chest size and of course the guys now that seem to have unlimited batteries to go forever but I could be wrong, the stuff could have been there but at least they didn't go full *** as some have done since.

Steroids where definitely around when Mac was winning grand slams.

 

[roundabout]

Courier and Muster gave Nadal and uncle Toni the schema to follow.

Yeah and no, I think Courier was done as a top player by 25. Or maybe the rest stepped up?

 

[Andynonomous]

Yeah and no, I think Courier was done as a top player by 25. Or maybe the rest stepped up?

Courier had a very short career at the top (I think he won all of his grand slams within 2 years). Doesn't mean he didn't use anything, but he didn't have an extended career, like some ped users do.

 

[robow7]

Courier and Muster gave Nadal and uncle Toni the schema to follow.

I don't see it in Courier as much but Muster was a little bull that could bang away on clay all day. Remember too that Muster was involved in a horrific accident where he was fortunate just to live and no one expected him to play but he did have a strong desire to prove others wrong. He was a determined SOB. A couple years ago at age 42, he tried to make a come back and couldn't even win a round or two on the Challenger circuit (the minor leagues), makes Horner's Vuelta all that more special Ha !

 

[robow7]

Steroids where definitely around when Mac was winning grand slams.

That's true, they were available in the early 80's but Mac's skinny little skeletal body didn't show it. And the kid didn't practice enough to need recuperative anti-inflamatories. He was simply blessed with skills you can't create with drugs and had a total disdain for practice, he used his doubles play as practice.

 

[TANK91]

I really dont undersand how you can acuse Djokervic or even Nadal of doping and say Federer and Murray are not, without any sort of strong evidence.

Also if you are going to make claims about Williams (being racist or even doping), then give some strong evidence.

It would be better if you just said you had suspicions about x, y or z.

She is 33 she wins slams when should barely be possible, she looks like a man aswell. That is not racist either but damn she is like a man built like a bloke compared to all the other girls. She destroys Sharapova who is far younger and a great player in her own right. Serena can win slams when she is 36 even she is gonna be the GOAT of womans tennis.