Tennis

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I just witnessed Roger Federer dismantle my guy Milos in the semi-finals at Indian Wells. Final score: 7-5, 6-4.
What struck me is that Federer stood on the baseline while awaiting Raonic's first serve, and he managed to return most of them. That is amazing, especially considering all of his opponents pretty much hug the ballboys at the back of the court and hope for the best when Raonic launches first-serve rockets.
How anyone can stand at the baseline and return serves from the likes of Raonic is beyond me. We're talking extraordinary hand-eye coordination.
I'm aware of the prevalence of drugs in sports, and I have no doubt tennis players are on the juice, but that was one hell of a show.
 
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Dope makes you greater. Guys like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, hell even Murray, would be great without dope. You can't go donkey to racehorse with chemical aid in tennis.

Federer is an extraordinary talent for sure (more talent than the other 3 imo), although he hasn't been the consistently best returner in years (Djokovic is).
 
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the delgados said:
I just witnessed Roger Federer dismantle my guy Milos in the semi-finals at Indian Wells. Final score: 7-5, 6-4.
What struck me is that Federer stood on the baseline while awaiting Raonic's first serve, and he managed to return most of them. That is amazing, especially considering all of his opponents pretty much hug the ballboys at the back of the court and hope for the best when Raonic launches first-serve rockets.
How anyone can stand at the baseline and return serves from the likes of Raonic is beyond me. We're talking extraordinary hand-eye coordination.
I'm aware of the prevalence of drugs in sports, and I have no doubt tennis players are on the juice, but that was one hell of a show.


Look up Federer's record against "big servers", they pose no serious threat to him. He's handled them well over the years. Raonic is just another in a long line.

On the other hand it's interesting to see the reactions from players in regards to Odesnik getting banned.
 
@Ticker
Thanks for the heads up. Your mention that big servers are no threat to Federer comes as no surprise after witnessing today's match against Raonic.
That said, i could not believe my eyes when I saw Feds set up on the baseline to return Raonic's first serve. The fact he returned first serves from Raonic from the baseline blew my mind. We're talking about less than a blink of the eye here. How is that possible?
 
May 2, 2010
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the delgados said:
@Ticker
Thanks for the heads up. Your mention that big servers are no threat to Federer comes as no surprise after witnessing today's match against Raonic.
That said, i could not believe my eyes when I saw Feds set up on the baseline to return Raonic's first serve. The fact he returned first serves from Raonic from the baseline blew my mind. We're talking about less than a blink of the eye here. How is that possible?

Partly a good read on his serve, part anticipation, short backswings, good reactions.
 
Agreed. thrawn. and I couldn't help but think there was a psychological element to it. Seems like Federer was daring Raonic to throw down an ace, otherwise he was going to return a winning shot.
I have only recently got into the sport of tennis, but I think it's probably the best sport ever. Federer seems to me like the Wayne Gretzky of tennis--he is a genius of the sport.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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the delgados said:
@Ticker
Thanks for the heads up. Your mention that big servers are no threat to Federer comes as no surprise after witnessing today's match against Raonic.
That said, i could not believe my eyes when I saw Feds set up on the baseline to return Raonic's first serve. The fact he returned first serves from Raonic from the baseline blew my mind. We're talking about less than a blink of the eye here. How is that possible?

Epstein in his book The Sports Gene delves into this.

I am ripping this off another forum
thnx to DarcyTiger http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/b ... t-31474953

You don't have enough time to "react" to anything faster than a spinner.

You are able to get everything lined up in time (your feet, head, bat) because of the thousands of balls you have faced in training and in games. You have a mental database of all these little cues, so you are able to determine the trajectory of the ball before it is even bowled.

The more practice you do, the more balls you face, the bigger your database becomes and the better you will be able to bat.

When batsman are faced with an unfamilar action (i.e. a slinger) they struggle to pick the ball up and are constantly 'late on the ball' because their database of that type of bowling is much smaller. Which is why I believe people have such a romantic notion that Thomson is bowling 180kph etc

A noteable example: (I emplore you to read this, its an exerpt from a book called "The Sports Gene" - a book I would wholehartedly recommend to anyone interested in the science behind sports, there is many anecdotes from a wide variety of sports)

Female softball pitcher throws to the worlds best baseball players, they can't even get bat on ball.

"All right," Pujols said softly, indicating he was ready.​
Finch rocked back and then forward, whipping her arm in a giant circle. She fired the first pitch just high. Pujols lurched backward, startled by what he saw. Finch giggled.​
She unleashed another fastball, this time high and inside. Pujols spun defensively, turning his head away. Behind him, his professional peers guffawed.​
Pujols stepped out of the batter's box, composed himself and stepped back in. He twisted his feet into the dirt and stared back at Finch.​
The next pitch came right down the middle. Pujols uncoiled a violent swing. The ball sailed past his bat, and the spectators hooted.​
The next pitch was way outside, and Pujols let it go. The one after that was another strike, and Pujols whiffed again. With one strike remaining, Pujols moved to the back of the batter's box and dug in, crouching low in his stance.​
Finch rocked and fired. Pujols missed badly. He turned and walked away, toward his tittering teammates. Then he stopped, bewildered. He turned back to Finch, doffed his cap and continued on his way.​
"I never want to experience that again," he later said.​
*****​
The fielders behind Finch had good reason to sit down when she entered the 23rd Pepsi All-Star game: They knew there would be no hits. Just as she had during practice, Finch struck out both hitters she faced. Piazza, the Mets' catcher, went down on three straight pitches. Padres outfielder Brian Giles missed so badly on the third strike that his momentum spun him through a pirouette.​
Then Finch returned to her role as a ceremonial coach. But she was not nearly finished befuddling major leaguers.​
In 2004 and '05, Finch hosted a regular segment on Fox's This Week in Baseball in which she traveled to major league training camps and transformed the world's best baseball hitters into clumsy hacks. "Girls hit this stuff?" asked an incredulous Mike Cameron, the Mariners' outfielder, after he missed a pitch by half a foot.​
When seven-time National League MVP Barry Bonds saw Finch at the Major League All-Star Game, he walked through a throng of reporters to talk trash to her. "So, Barry, when do I get to face the best?" Finch asked.​
"Whenever you want to," Bonds replied confidently. "You faced all them little chumps.... You gotta face the best.​
"You can't be pretty and good and not face another handsome guy who's good," Bonds added, spreading his peacock feathers. He then told Finch to bring a protective net because, he said, "you're going to need it with me.... I'll hit you."​
"There's only been one guy who touched it," Finch replied.​
"Touch it?" Bonds said, laughing. "If it comes across that plate, believe me, I'ma touch it. I'ma touch it hard."​
"I'll have my people call your people, and we'll set it up," Finch said.​
"Oh, it's on!" Bonds said. "You can call me direct, girl. I take my challenges direct.... We'll televise it too, on national television. I want the world to see."​
So Finch traveled to Arizona to face Bonds in spring training, and after he watched several of her pitches fly by, the raillery stopped. He insisted that the cameras not film him batting against her. Finch shot pitch after pitch past Bonds as his Giants teammates pronounced them strikes. "That's a ball!" Bonds pleaded, to which one of his teammates replied, "Barry, you've got 12 umpires back here."​
Bonds watched dozens of strikes go by without so much as swinging. Not until Finch began to tell Bonds what pitches were coming did he tap a meek foul ball a few feet. He taunted her, "Go on, throw the cheese!" She did, and blew it right past him.​
Finch visited Alex Rodriguez, who was then starring for the Rangers, at another spring-training park, in 2003, and Rodriguez watched over her shoulder as she threw warmup pitches to a Texas bullpen catcher. The catcher missed three of the first five throws. Before Rodriguez stepped into the batter's box, he made it clear he wouldn't dare swing at any of Finch's pitches. He leaned forward and told her, "No one's going to make a fool out of me."​
*****​
For four decades, scientists have been constructing a picture of how elite athletes intercept speeding objects. The intuitive explanation is that the Albert Pujolses and Roger Federers of the world simply have the genetic gift of quicker reflexes, which give them more time to react to the ball. Except that isn't true.​

When people are tested for their simple reaction time -- how fast they can press a button in response to a light -- most of them, whether they are teachers, lawyers or pro athletes, take around 200 milliseconds, or one fifth of a second. That is about the minimum time it takes for the retina at the back of the human eye to receive information, for that information to be conveyed across synapses -- the gaps between neurons, each of which takes a few milliseconds to cross -- to the primary visual cortex in the back of the brain, and for the brain to send a message to the spinal cord that puts the muscles in motion. All this happens in the blink of an eye. (It takes 150 milliseconds just to execute a blink when a light is shone in your face.) But as quick as 200 milliseconds is, in the realm of 100-mph baseball pitches and 140-mph tennis serves, it is far too slow.​
 
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the delgados said:
Agreed. thrawn. and I couldn't help but think there was a psychological element to it. Seems like Federer was daring Raonic to throw down an ace, otherwise he was going to return a winning shot.
I have only recently got into the sport of tennis, but I think it's probably the best sport ever. Federer seems to me like the Wayne Gretzky of tennis--he is a genius of the sport.

Definitely!

game tactics. the Canuck SerB alliteration serve is his only weapon. take it away, neutralise, destroy, you psychology take him out of the contest.

Fed might be gambling based on the likelihood he could pick off one game a set, with this aggressive tactic. he had the skills and ability to be able to effect it. others would be on a hiding to nothing, apart from p'raps Djokovic.

If he is 10 feet behind the baseline, he might get in more rallies than other players, because of innate ability, but he was less likely to snag a service break. what, he needed to service breaks over the three sets, and to hold on 6 consecutive serves over the one set, for two of the three sets.
 
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Romanticism. The 2014 stats tell a different story, as do those the years before.

Return games won: Feder (10th), 26%.
Nadal (1st) 35%, Djokovic (2nd) 33%, Murray (4th) 32%

First serve return games won:
Federer: 32%
Nadal, Djokovic, Murray (35%, 33%, 33%)

Second serve return games won:
Federer: 51%
Nadal, Djokovic, Murray (56%, 58%, 55%)

Fed continues to have a great return (great everything, really) occasionally, but he hasn't been the best returner of serve in years.
 
Thanks, Blackcat. That was a great read. I would pay to see Barry bonds get schooled by the softball pitcher.
SeriousSam: Federer was definitely on yesterday, that's for sure. I've been pulling for Raonic to make a breakthrough for a while now, and I still think he has a Grand Slam or two in him. He has certainly improved quite a bit recently. But sometimes you just have to give a tip of the cap to the master. Yesterday Federer was simply sublime.
 
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If the hard server doesn't follow his serve into the net, then it's not a bad play to step back behind the baseline and take his serve later, giving you more time to see it but if the server is following his serve into the net like Raonic, then by returning close to the baseline you reduce the time the server has a chance to get further into the net for his first volley since the ball is traveling less distance and time to your racquet and then back at him. Jimmy Connors and Agassi, two of the best returners along with today's Djoker all stayed close to the baseline and took the ball on the rise. It's easier said than done and takes world class hand eye coordination.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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the delgados said:
Thanks, Blackcat. That was a great read. I would pay to see Barry bonds get schooled by the softball pitcher.
SeriousSam: Federer was definitely on yesterday, that's for sure. I've been pulling for Raonic to make a breakthrough for a while now, and I still think he has a Grand Slam or two in him. He has certainly improved quite a bit recently. But sometimes you just have to give a tip of the cap to the master. Yesterday Federer was simply sublime.

but we are not talking percetage wins, or percentage of first serve points won.

we are not even talking about points in play.

we are talking about a receiving tactic, taking the first serve of a 210-220km 6'8" server. Tall guy, basically one weapon, his serve.

Fed was willing to tank points probably, sacrifice points. He was willing to pull the trigger, to snag one service break. We are not talking returning a point, or percentage of successful returns to get the ball in play. We need to ask a pro or one of the best coaches, if this was actually Fed's tactic. Chances are, he would be less successful than Nadal and Murray and Djokovic once the rally is underway from a 50-50 vantage point, a neutral advantage/disadvantage position on the court/of the ball.
 
I dunno. i'm just talking about a match I saw between Raonic and Federer. I lack the wherewithal and capacity to begin thinking about percentage wins or percentage of first serve points won.


That said, i have no doubt Raonic's opponents are thinking of ways to just once break his serve. And it seems to me that Federer came up with an amazing idea by standing on the baseline, as if he was returning the second serve from some middling opponent.

I'm far from an expert at tennis, but I've been watching Raonic for a while now; and I submit he has gone way beyond relying on his serve to win. His game has improved in all aspects. He's also slimmed down quite a bit and doesn't seem to tank in long matches. I wonder where that comes from.
 
Federers traditional tactic against big servers was usually to just wait till the tie break where he only needed a point or two off the big guys serve while comfortably holding his own points by simply outrallying an inferior baseline hitter.
 
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Fed was often asked how he had such an excellent record against Andy Roddick 21-3, another huge serve and Fed stated, "I simply try to get the return back in play and see what I can create from there" Another reason you traditionally step in to return is to take a good kick serve (which Raonic has) on the rise at waist level rather than allowing the ball to get above chest high where a one handed back hand has less leverage. Also by moving in, if a server tries to take you out wide in the deuce, you stand a better chance of cutting the serve off on the return vs. standing way back and giving the slicing/spinning ball more time to move further away from you. The key is taking the ball in front of you and simply blocking it back allowing the server's pace to work against him. Raonic is improving and his movement is getting better and his forehand is coming of age, I suspect he has some big wins ahead of him on faster or indoor courts.
 
Thanks for the insight, robow7. I've been watching Raonic for a while now, and I agree he has improved greatly. He's cut down the amount of unforced errors by a huge margin and no longer has the deer-in-the headlights look during big matches.
He now looks like he belongs.
You seem to know a lot about the sport, so maybe you can shed some light on something Raonic does that drives me bats. Why the hell does he continue to scamper half way across the court running backwards just to hit a cross court forehand right into his opponents wheel-house? He would save so much energy by simply switching to a backhand shot down the line.
It's almost like he's scared to hit a backhand, even though he's good at it. Am i missing something here?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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the delgados said:
Thanks for the insight, robow7. I've been watching Raonic for a while now, and I agree he has improved greatly. He's cut down the amount of unforced errors by a huge margin and no longer has the deer-in-the headlights look during big matches.
He now looks like he belongs.
You seem to know a lot about the sport, so maybe you can shed some light on something Raonic does that drives me bats. Why the hell does he continue to scamper half way across the court running backwards just to hit a cross court forehand right into his opponents wheel-house? He would save so much energy by simply switching to a backhand shot down the line.
It's almost like he's scared to hit a backhand, even though he's good at it. Am i missing something here?

his limb extension should be like Del Podro no? and allow his to cover vast area by virtue of reach. The croat 6'10" or 7 footer, and the american isner, korlovic and isner are lumbering. karlovic the croat and isner the north hincapie carolinan are about 6'10", but Karlo might be the faster of the two.

will Gael Monfils require knee, hip, ligament, tendon replacements, some of the LAndis ceramic in his joints. explosive, but cant be good on hardcourts, and is never in position, but relies on the athleticism to stay in a point.

edit: context on "cant be good on hardcourts", ofcourse, he still can be great with coverage, p'raps not quite Djokovic, but as good as any other cos of athleticism, my context was, it cant be good on his body. I assume he gets alot of cortisone for his joints. He wont have joints on his 30th birthday. or is he already 30? I think him and Gasquet are on the cusp of 30
 
Blackcat: Raonic used to lumber around the court like a drunken sailor. It was almost painful to watch. But he's got a new coach and new "techniques." He looks like a changed man. The guy is totally ripped, and he now seems to run around with ease.
That said, he keeps running backward for no reason other than to play a forehand shot.
Yeah, he's got a lot of reach, but i guess I'm wondering why he wouldn't use his reach to simply turn around and hit a backhand rather than scamper backward as if he's running on hot coals. It doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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the delgados said:
Blackcat: Raonic used to lumber around the court like a drunken sailor. It was almost painful to watch. But he's got a new coach and new "techniques." He looks like a changed man. The guy is totally ripped, and he now seems to run around with ease.
That said, he keeps running backward for no reason other than to play a forehand shot.
Yeah, he's got a lot of reach, but i guess I'm wondering why he wouldn't use his reach to simply turn around and hit a backhand rather than scamper backward as if he's running on hot coals. It doesn't make any sense to me.

i think i mentioned in another thread here, not having seen him play for 6 months or 9 months, this "new raonic" comes back half the size. cycling parlance = NOT NORMAL.

the first in tennis i think was Anna Ivanovic, a serb serb, not the canuck serb.

Anna was always very attractive, but she lost about 15% of her bodyweight, in one off-season. Like Froome, like Wiggins. Djokovic was always really lean lean lean. But I think he even leaned up. lipotropin, AICAR, corticoids...

Did you notice Jo Wilfred Tsonga has also done this Raonic/Ivanovic transformation, p'raps not quite as marked. He still carries a middle-heavyweight boxer physique instead of a heavyweight boxer physique.

Djokovic never had any weight to lose, but he was even leaner. he looks like a greyhound in the quads, hamstrings, buttocks. There is no doubt, the defending starts in the legs, that is the foundation. And Djokovic might have accomplished the best movement of anyone.
 
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the delgados said:
Thanks for the insight, robow7. I've been watching Raonic for a while now, and I agree he has improved greatly. He's cut down the amount of unforced errors by a huge margin and no longer has the deer-in-the headlights look during big matches.
He now looks like he belongs.
You seem to know a lot about the sport, so maybe you can shed some light on something Raonic does that drives me bats. Why the hell does he continue to scamper half way across the court running backwards just to hit a cross court forehand right into his opponents wheel-house? He would save so much energy by simply switching to a backhand shot down the line.
It's almost like he's scared to hit a backhand, even though he's good at it. Am i missing something here?

Raonic backpedals into his backhand corner to create room for his preferred inside-out forehand, which he hits typically, back crosscourt into his opponent's backhand (weaker) corner. If you're any good, you can keep an opponent pinned that way on his backhand side and wait for a weaker ball opportunity to attack either way and finish the point. Raonic has a huge forehand and a weaker, less consistent backhand so he favours his strength. Hitting a backhand down-the -line is a risky shot as it involves both a change of direction plus hitting the ball over the highest part of the net. As the outcome of any tennis match hinges on keeping unforced errors down relative to the opponent, pro players develop risk-averse hitting patterns. Raonic's basic pattern is a huge, steamhammer first serve followed up by a devastating, first strike forehand. If the point extends into the rally he'll then try and carry on using his forehand. Nothing much to it really. Clever players will work out ways to read and dismantle his serve. You cannot return a 130 mph plus serve like his without knowing or guessing in advance which side it's going. The reaction time isn't there.

Not sure what drugs has got to do with any of that, mind.
 
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EddietheEagle said:
the delgados said:
Thanks for the insight, robow7. I've been watching Raonic for a while now, and I agree he has improved greatly. He's cut down the amount of unforced errors by a huge margin and no longer has the deer-in-the headlights look during big matches.
He now looks like he belongs.
You seem to know a lot about the sport, so maybe you can shed some light on something Raonic does that drives me bats. Why the hell does he continue to scamper half way across the court running backwards just to hit a cross court forehand right into his opponents wheel-house? He would save so much energy by simply switching to a backhand shot down the line.
It's almost like he's scared to hit a backhand, even though he's good at it. Am i missing something here?

Raonic backpedals into his backhand corner to create room for his preferred inside-out forehand, which he hits typically, back crosscourt into his opponent's backhand (weaker) corner. If you're any good, you can keep an opponent pinned that way on his backhand side and wait for a weaker ball opportunity to attack either way and finish the point. Raonic has a huge forehand and a weaker, less consistent backhand so he favours his strength. Hitting a backhand down-the -line is a risky shot as it involves both a change of direction plus hitting the ball over the highest part of the net. As the outcome of any tennis match hinges on keeping unforced errors down relative to the opponent, pro players develop risk-averse hitting patterns. Raonic's basic pattern is a huge, steamhammer first serve followed up by a devastating, first strike forehand. Nothing much to it really. Clever players will work out ways to read and dismantle his serve. You cannot return a 130 mph plus serve like his without knowing or guessing in advance which side it's going. The reaction time isn't there.

Not sure what drugs has got to do with any of that, mind.

I could be wrong, but I'd venture to guess that drugs has a lot do with it. Raonic's body type hasn't so much changed as it has been refined. He's always had huge legs, but they now look like the legs of a cyclist. Compared to less than two years ago, Raonic now gets to balls he couldn't reach, even though he still continues to insist on running backwards all the effing time.
I appreciate the insight regarding why he does so, but it still seems to me a lot of those backpedaling cross-court forehands end up on the forehand side of his opponent. Djokovic would never run backwards like he just saw a mouse. He just calmly and methodically dismantles everyone and makes it look so easy.
 
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djoker's backhand is every bit as strong and often more consistent than his forehand so you won't see him run around his backhand to hit the inside out forehand much. A few years ago when Fed was more prime, he often did that because he has (had) one of the best forehands the game has seen. Sampras used to sit back in the backhand corner hitting inside out forehands just daring his opponent to hit down the line and when the opponent would eventually take the bait and go for it, Sampras crosses over quickly and ends the point with his famous running forehand either back down the line or a wicked acute angle crosscourt. The difference is with Raonic, if his inside out forehand isn't penetrating enough, a guy like Djoker or Murray who have a strong backhand down the line will make him pay because he just doesn't have the same foot speed as a Sampras to cover it. To beat a guy playing like that, you have to hit crosscourt wide to the Raonic forehand and be able to weather that stroke from him so you can then open up his backhand side so you can then get to his weaker side. Guys like Fed have made a living of exposing those serve bots and their forehands.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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robow7 said:
djoker's backhand is every bit as strong and often more consistent than his forehand so you won't see him run around his backhand to hit the inside out forehand much. A few years ago when Fed was more prime, he often did that because he has (had) one of the best forehands the game has seen. Sampras used to sit back in the backhand corner hitting inside out forehands just daring his opponent to hit down the line and when the opponent would eventually take the bait and go for it, Sampras crosses over quickly and ends the point with his famous running forehand either back down the line or a wicked acute angle crosscourt. The difference is with Raonic, if his inside out forehand isn't penetrating enough, a guy like Djoker or Murray who have a strong backhand down the line will make him pay because he just doesn't have the same foot speed as a Sampras to cover it. To beat a guy playing like that, you have to hit crosscourt wide to the Raonic forehand and be able to weather that stroke from him so you can then open up his backhand side so you can then get to his weaker side. Guys like Fed have made a living of exposing those serve bots and their forehands.

and Djokovic's similar ability on his forehand and backhand, enable him to be the best defender in the game, p'raps, the best defender the game has seen.

ofcourse, using that AICAR/lipotropin/cortisone coctail, he can play at 6'3" and 160lbs, instead of 165lbs, and those extra 5lbs matter in the 7th game of a Grand Slam when you have gone deep and defending on your last legs. being lighter, but a tad quicker on your legs, with the same power, cos you have lose zero functional mass tissue, will help you. it will help you be the best defender.

I have also noticed Fed a little leaner. p'raps. 3 or 4lbs leaner. basically invisible to see with the naked eye.
 
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This is the one I shook my head at in disbelief a few years ago. How do you play professional tennis for several years at a top level and then go, "Hey maybe I should drop 30 lbs over 6 months" ? How the hell do you do that? I played major collegiate tennis and when you're on the court for 6 hours or more a day, we were gobbling down calories left and right just to keep our weight from slipping into the red zone. Mardy's "body transformation" always left me a little puzzled.

http://www.shape.com/celebrities/star-t ... nd-healthy