Tennis

[sampras38]

I always felt soderling was one of the more "obvious" dopers. Just from his physique and the way he would blast every ball at 1000mp/h.

Though as a casual tennis watcher, I hadn't really realized he was missing from tennis

Guess doping doesn't improve your personality.

Thomas Berdych hits the ball as hard as Soderling, so does Del Potro. Both players wouldn't be classed as powerful builds by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[GazelleFormula]

Not really. Whether or not he's in the list, he looks good from asking for it to be made public. His words can have no impact on whether or not the list is released anyway.

And if he is on the list and gets caught he can always play the sympathy card: "Maybe part of me wanted to get caught"

 

[zebedee]

Berdych, del Potro and Soderling are all big physical specimens. They are prototype players of today's game which is essentially based around the application of overwhelming power. Physically they are way bigger than the Ivan Lendl/Andre Agassi power players of the recent past, and, interestingly, they have found a way to the very top of the game unlike those past specimens who were compromised by their relative lack of speed and movement. Victor Pecci is the only huge player I know of from a bygone era to make it to the top 10. You see players of their build right the way through the ATP ranks today. I believe that's as much to do with sports science and modern training as it is to do with peds.

Soderling, the smaller, lighter of the trio at six foot four, 1.90m and a tad under 90kg, withdrew from the tour after a diagnosis of glandular fever which apparently has affected him quite badly.

Silent bans today are an urban myth. A player can serve a voluntary, unannounced provisional suspension after testing positive and return to the tour without giving reasons after his 'B' sample tests negative. But, under WADA rules, that's it. All playing bans are subject to announcement via press release.

There would have to be gross corruption within the ITF, akin to malfeasance, were silent bans a reality. In my view and knowing a little of the tennis regulatory establishment, the ITF are more dopey old farts rather than sinister, underhand enablers of doping. The ITF is not the UCI and is headquartered in sleepy Roehampton rather than under the convenient cover of Switzerland.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Thomas Berdych hits the ball as hard as Soderling, so does Del Potro. Both players wouldn't be classed as powerful builds by any stretch of the imagination.

Berdych is 6' 5" that helps your power.

Edit: Didn't realise Soderling was 6" 4', thought he was closer to 6' 0".

 

[zebedee]

A lot of the speculation surrounding tennis falls to the ITF's policy of providing the minimum information it can get away with. Transparency on doping matters is virtually non-existent and they will have to entrust far more information to the public as well as beef up their anti-doping, before they can be considered credible as an anti-doping organisation. Personally, I feel it is beyond them as they are basically way too conflicted.

 

[sugarman]

I think he WAS tested and banned...

Probably tested positive in June 2012, for something minor.
A-sample is reported to ITF, who tells him to 'leave' Wimbledon.
Nadal wants to see B-sample, which is analysed mid July.
Nadal withdraws from London Olympics July 19, for no good reason.
Nadal withdraws from every tournament until 6 months have passed.
Ban is lifted mid January, AFTER the start of Australian Open.
Playing a minor tournament instead of AO would be impossible to explain.
First possible tournament after the AO is the Chile Open, February 5.

Game on!

Yeah, heard something very similar to this when he first withdrew from the olympics then US open. Only difference being that he wasn't asked to 'leave' wimbledon, was genuinely beaten, which may be when he was caught - doesn't tennis have some bizarre policy of target testing losers at GS's? i.e. he wouldn't have expected to lose and be tested as early as the second round?

Obviously no evidence, just speculation, but interesting that the rumours have been widespread for ~6 months and he's only really responding now that hes back playing. Also interesting to hear he was tested 9 times in that time, that seems a very high number for tennis.

Do agree that it helps no one that testing in tennis is, or is perceived as, so secretive.

 

[zebedee]

Apart from whipping up interest in an otherwise disinterested 'so what' public, talk of mythical silent bans renders anti-doping a disservice. I understand fully where you're coming from though.

To repeat, the problem in tennis is as much one of lack of transparency, the occultic way they go about things. This includes lack of oversight of the regulatory authority itself, as much as it is about technical deficiencies in the testing programme. Any number of criticisms can be fairly levelled at the ITF. How do we know the TUE system isn't being abused? Who is skipping tests? How many positive are there followed by B sample negatives? How many provisional suspensions are actually being served and for what violations? None of this is known. It's as though we're all the little people whom this information shouldn't concern.

Ultimately, I believe organisations like the ITF will always lack credibility because of their conflicting responsibility to promote the sport itself. As an anti-doping body, the ITF is not fit for purpose basically. They've failed miserably because they don't catch anyone. In my view the anti-doping function has to go to fully-independent national ADO's. These ADO's should moreover be enabled by statutory backing to engage the active support and intervention of state agencies including the police, tax authorities, customs. medical authorities and so on. There has to be investigative capacity to actually catch dopers along with the enablers of doping otherwise we're all p.ssing in the wind and the lying and cheating will continue to distort a sport we love. Anti-doping legislation should also be enacted to enable the likes of Nike and the pharmaceutical companies to be subjected to massive fines if they engage in covert support of dopers, the likes of which we are now seeing in the financial sector. Punishment should be extended as much to the enablers as the dopers. Gynaecologists who dope athletes should be struck off so they can't stick needles into anyone at all.

 

[sugarman]

Great post zebedee, really sums it up.

Independent ADO's are, in my opinion, the only way doping can be properly tackled in any sport. The ITF clearly doesn't want to sanction any top player that draws an audience, and so money, to the sport - at least not publicly, which is the very thing that makes a 'silent ban' seem at all feasible.

As a side note, there are a few nations that I doubt could produce effective independent ADO's, but nonetheless it would be infinitely better than the ITF managing it.

Punishing and eliminating enablers; companies, doctors, anti-ageing clinics whatever is also an important element - well said.

 

[sugarman]

How do we know the TUE system isn't being abused? Who is skipping tests? How many positive are there followed by B sample negatives? How many provisional suspensions are actually being served and for what violations? None of this is known. It's as though we're all the little people whom this information shouldn't concern.

I do remember reading somewhere that tennis has a large discrepancy between initial adverse analytical findings and actual doping sanctions. (Unfortunately can't find the source at the moment, but will post it if I come across it again).

Obviously without the ITF revealing why positive findings are going without sanctions its hard to know what to make of it, but could suggest things like TUE abuse...

 

[SundayRider]

All the quarter finalists at least should be tested at every single tournament on tour level? does this happen now?

 

[sugarman]

All the quarter finalists at least should be tested at every single tournament on tour level? does this happen now?

Agree, for in-competition, this should be an absolute minimum. I'd be surprised if it happens at every tournament though, as ITF testing includes challenger level events, qualifiers, davis and fed cup etc and the grand total number of tests is recent years has been around 2000 per year (this is men's and women's combined).

Its likely at Grand Slams all quarter finalists get tested eventually, see e.g
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/this-is-testing-2009-australian-open.html

In my opinion, tennis's greatest flaw in testing though is the almost non-existent amount of OOC testing. In 2011 there was only 21 OOC blood tests and 195 OOC urine tests across the whole year, including both men and women. (http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/statistics.asp) This in a sport where preparation has got to be absolutely critical and players constantly bang on about how hard they trained in the fairly short off-season.

 

[zebedee]

Thanks.

THASP has all the vagaries of the ITF pretty much mapped out in full. It's pretty much the established reference resource for tennis doping now. I'm pretty sure it's helped to trigger a number of the articles we are now seeing in both national and tennis media so well done to those people behind it.

 

[peloton]

I am watching the development of the similar Söderling story. Robin also had an undefined 'medical condition' that forced him out of the sport just after winning Swedish Open July 17, 2011 (ranked #5 in the world, no less).
Of course, the official statements about the 'medical condition' that has be spouted since then borders on complete idiocy.
So I'm just waiting for the miraculous recovery that will be announced late July 2013

Yeah, mononucleosis sure is something to laugh about...

Reading some of the posts on this thread shows that some have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Fits well into the clinic though.

 

[WillemS]

Roger Federer gave an interview to Dutch television during the Rotterdam ATP-500 tournament in Rotterdam talking, among others, about doping. Here's a quick transcript of the interview in which he talks as a cyclist during the Armstrong-years:

Q: ¨There's been said a lot about doping lately, for example by Djokovic and Murray. As the head of the player's council, what are your thoughts about what they've said; do you agree with them?"

RF: "Well, I don't exactly know everything they've said or how many interviews they've done, but obviously the majority of what's happened is that the players have been asked, you know, about their opinions about the cases that have just transpired in the press, you know. So it's, ehm, it's been difficult times for sports overall, because [of] a few things that have happened. So what is the process now for tennis, needs to be to protect our sport as much as we can; that the integrity is there; that we do play each other tough and fair; so there is just no cheating going on and for that we need tough testing. I have many different ideas what we should be doing, but I think we also need a bit more funding to be able to test the players more frequently. And then I think we should save the urine and the blood samples for as long as we can, that would also scare away people of trying to cheat. So it's justreally important to make sure we try everything as much and as hard as we can to maintain the intregity for the sport.

Q: "We all know what happened in cycling; in any way, are you concerned that the same thing can happen to tennis?"

RF: "Not really, but you never know. I don't know what the other players are doing. I believe the sport is extremely clean and I would be exteremely shocked and disappointed and upset and sad if something massive would break out in our sport. Up to that day, we don't know and to me it seems like this sport in particular, tennis, or soccer as well, are definately sports you can do without any doping and all those things. So for me it's, eh, I don't want to be naïve, but sometimes I feel things are better than they actually are, so I always get very upset when I hear about cheaters in sport."

The original interview can be found at http://nos.nl/video/473092-federer-moeten-integriteit-bewaren.html, the first doping question is asked at ~2:23.

 

[Revealer]

To be honest, in other sources, Federer is quoted differently. He doesn't sound like a cyclist from the Armstrong years when he says that he wasn't blood tested at all after the Australian Open and when he calls for the introduction of the blood passport.

http://www.espn.co.uk/tennis/sport/story/192756.html

"We should do more in terms of blood testing," the world No 2 said at the Rotterdam World Tennis tournament. "It's important to make sure that tennis is credible and clean to a maximum. We don't want players even getting the idea to cheat. "But there also will be more funding needed to make all the tests possible. The grand slam tournaments should help to finance that as it is in their best interest to keep the sport clean and credible."

"A blood passport will be necessary as some substances can't be discovered right now," the 31-year-old added. "But there also should be more blood tests and out-of-competition controls in tennis. "I didn't get tested on blood after the Australian Open and I told the responsible people over there that it was a big surprise for me.

 

[WillemS]

To be honest, in other sources, Federer is quoted differently. He doesn't sound like a cyclist from the Armstrong years when he says that he wasn't blood tested at all after the Australian Open and when he calls for the introduction of the blood passport.

To be honest, I did not paraphrase, but literally quoted his own answers. You can listen back the interview if you want, just follow the link I've provided (the interview is in English). The only thing I've changed is ignoring the "you know"'s he speaks twice in every sentence.

He's convinced, or so he states, that tennis is one of the cleanest sports around, but it's good to have more tests. It's exactly like all those cyclists saying "Cycling is clean now, but, hey, let's have more tests" during the post-1998 years. They even donated (Armstrong) money for testing equipment.

 

[zebedee]

Federer for some time now has had blood samples frozen for analysis at some undetermined point which rather suggests he isn't afraid of the future. Public pronouncements like his, in my opinion, should not be taken at face value. Like a lot of us, he may, among his rivals, suspect Nadal of doping and that Djokovic started a programme himself in 2010/2011 to catch up and supersede Nadal, with Murray following in the wake of Djokovic. He just isn't letting on.

To my eyes, Murray looks the most obviously 'made' of the quartet as, unlike Nadal, we know he had a fairly puny frame. He actually keeled over in one match as a teenage pro - playing Johansson at Queens in 2005. He had no real strength or stamina at all in those years, playing a dinky, defence-oriented game that relied a lot on bunting the ball back. Today he is a tennis power player with a physique to match and the LTA alone has spent well over a million pounds on his development.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

To my eyes, Murray looks the most obviously 'made' of the quartet as, unlike Nadal, we know he had a fairly puny frame. He actually keeled over in one match as a teenage pro - playing Johansson at Queens in 2005. He had no real strength or stamina at all in those years, playing a dinky, defence-oriented game that relied a lot on bunting the ball back. Today he is a tennis power player with a physique to match and the LTA alone has spent well over a million pounds on his development.

This is a very good/important point for anyone who hasn't seen the match. Murrays display of physical conditioning in 2005 was one of the worst displays I have seen by a professional tennis player ever.

Every year at Wimbledon anonymous Brits are given wild cards to play at Wimbledon most of them don't establish themselves on the tour and are never heard of again.

I have never seen any of these fledgling pros show as bad stamina as Murray did when they are forced to play three set matches, though none of them are as good shot makers as Murray is/was at that age.

He had decent power at that age (due to technique) but a very thin physique.

I have gained about 7kg since I was 17 (mid 20s now) as other people in this thread have. What's surprising about Murray is his weight gain came with a dramatic increase in stamina.

I would not expect a long distance runner to gain any weight between 17 and 25 (maybe a couple of pounds) and in tournaments a tennis players exercise regime is not that different.

 

[del1962]

This is a very good/important point for anyone who hasn't seen the match. Murrays display of physical conditioning in 2005 was one of the worst displays I have seen by a professional tennis player ever.

Every year at Wimbledon anonymous Brits are given wild cards to play at Wimbledon most of them don't establish themselves on the tour and are never heard of again.

I have never seen any of these fledgling pros show as bad stamina as Murray did when they are forced to play three set matches, though none of them are as good shot makers as Murray is/was at that age.

He had decent power at that age (due to technique) but a very thin physique.

I have gained about 7kg since I was 17 (mid 20s now) as other people in this thread have. What's surprising about Murray is his weight gain came with a dramatic increase in stamina.

I would not expect a long distance runner to gain any weight between 17 and 25 (maybe a couple of pounds) and in tournaments a tennis players exercise regime is not that different.

Really, so tennis players basically run 120 miles a week?

I doubt the training regimes are similar at all. I am not saying Murray is or isnt doping, but the line of argument is that this is what he was like at 17 is nonsensical bull imo.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Really, so tennis players basically run 120 miles a week?

I doubt the training regimes are similar at all. I am not saying Murray is or isnt doping, but the line of argument is that this is what he was like at 17 is nonsensical bull imo.

I didn't say a marathon distance runner.

In tournaments players spend vast amounts of time running back and forth on the baseline, they don't drop for crunches and press ups during matches. In tournaments they get a max of one day off in between matches, they are not going to lift weights on these days, I've only heard of players using these days to hit with a partner, do some flexibility/mobility exercises and/or get a massage.

They are in tournaments most of the year, it's only between tournaments they could weight train and have enough time to recover.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I didn't say a marathon distance runner.

In tournaments players spend vast amounts of time running back and forth on the baseline, they don't drop for crunches and press ups during matches. In tournaments they get a max of one day off in between matches, they are not going to lift weights on these days, I've only heard of players using these days to hit with a partner, do some flexibility/mobility exercises and/or get a massage.

They are in tournaments most of the year, it's only between tournaments they could weight train and have enough time to recover.

The top guys play ~22 tournaments a year, most of which are a week long. That leaves about half the year when they're not playing tournaments.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

What's surprising about Murray is his weight gain came with a dramatic increase in stamina.

This happens to schoolboy rowers who become international seniors on a regular basis. They don't train much (relatively) at school, as they are working on exams and don't generally lift weights, as it's not an efficient use of limited training time. Thus, they tend to be skinny, gangly and deficient in the stamina necessary to compete with seniors.

They then leave school, row at uni and then become full time rowers. By their mid 20s, they are much bigger and have much more stamina than in their teens.

 

[Bicycle]

Rafael Nadal's doctor warns the Spaniard against playing too much

Dr Angel Luiz Cotorro is also a licensed physician for completion of doping control

Not a bad chap to have on your team

 

[Briant_Gumble]

This happens to schoolboy rowers who become international seniors on a regular basis. They don't train much (relatively) at school, as they are working on exams and don't generally lift weights, as it's not an efficient use of limited training time. Thus, they tend to be skinny, gangly and deficient in the stamina necessary to compete with seniors.

They then leave school, row at uni and then become full time rowers. By their mid 20s, they are much bigger and have much more stamina than in their teens.

They are different modes of exercise and I don't know a lot about rowing.

Tennis is primarily eccentric exercise whereas rowing is concentric. Eccentric contractions produce more signalling molecules that regulate catabolism in the anabolic:catabolic ratio than concentric contractions.

I wouldn't be questioning it if it was a swimmer. Either Murray is spending a decent amount of time in between tournaments weight training or he's continuing to practice with hitting partners and going for runs (which have historically been attributed to bring about stamina increases for tennis players and deemed more relevant to that sport than rowing or swimming).

 

[zebedee]

Murray was eighteen when he played Queens in 2005, one of his first tournaments as a full professional. Pro players are supposed to have had years of physical training before making it to the pro ranks.

What seems self-evident with Murray is the dramatic change in body composition compared with his similar height (6'3''), similar weight (83kg), older brother, Jamie. Murray's legs, comparatively, are now like tree trunks.

I have no doubt he trains hard. Whether motivation alone has enabled him to do that, is any outsider's guess. To my mind there is also the possibility that a tennis player will juice periodically in the same way they train periodically too. Could a tennis player dope purely as a means of empowerment to move to another physical level that can then be sustained through normal training?