Yes, and the numbers show that it usually tails off after that.
Well, it is possible to roll a 6 with a die 10 times in a row.
Yes, and the numbers show that it usually tails off after that.
That totally depends on how many points they score. If Del Toro somehow manages a 1000+ points season (not super realistic, but neither did it seem realistic for De Lie to score so much in 2022), then everyone who hasn't picked Del Toro is screwed at least as much as whoever was on the wrong side of the Ayuso choice.For example I would say that the performance of Ayuso (1023 points, 39 picks) will be way more important than del Toro (124 points, 47 picks). But in the ranking they are just one place away from each other.. But in general I like your idea..
That´s of course true. It will of course depend in the end how many points in the end every rider will really score.That totally depends on how many points they score. If Del Toro somehow manages a 1000+ points season (not super realistic, but neither did it seem realistic for De Lie to score so much in 2022), then everyone who hasn't picked Del Toro is screwed at least as much as whoever was on the wrong side of the Ayuso choice.
Thus, the season will determine which riders were the most important. It's about how many ponts away a rider is from their expected score.
Yes, while Hugo's method is a fun attempt, there's really no way of making a general assumption about this pre-game. I think it was maybe @Armchair cyclist (or was it statistics guru Skibby?) who once made a post-season calculation of which riders made the biggest difference to the optimal team and came up with a 'penalty' for not having them. I.e. if you took out a rider from the optimal team, how much worse would it be? That was probably the most objective way you could look at it.Thus, the season will determine which riders were the most important.
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RONDEL Mathys - I'm probably crazy but I think his ceiling is similar to Del Toro's (at a cheaper price). Tudor likes to develop their talents slowly but I'm expecting a big step up this year.
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Quintana was a special case though. He was staying in Colombia for an extra year after his Avenir win which made it obvious that he had a hard ceiling and wasn't going to be a good pick. Pretty wild to think about how much the transition from juniors/u23s has changed in the decade since. If he had come through the ranks in the last couple seasons he probably would have signed with a top WT team (or at least their dev team) by the time he turned 19.In hindsight I should probably have gambled a lot more on obvious talents like Del Toro.
In the past pretty much every Tour de l'Avenir winner has made a profit the next year.
2022 Winner UIJTDEBROEKS Cian went from 253 to 574.
2021 Winner JOHANNESSEN Tobias Halland went from 237 to 462.
2019 Winner FOSS Tobias Svendsen went from 127 to 99 but we all know what happened in 2020.
2018 Winner POGACAR Tadej went from 361 to 1519.
2017 Winner BERNAL GOMEZ Egan Arley went from 766 to 1130.
2016 Winner GAUDU David went from 196 to 352.
2015 Winner SOLER GIMENEZ Marc went from 111 to 155.
2014 Winner LOPEZ MORENO Miguel Angel went from 71 to 297.
2013 Winner FERNANDEZ ANDUJAR Ruben went from 67 to 163.
2012 Winner BARGUIL Warren went from 120 to 342.
2011 Winner CHAVES RUBIO Jhoan Esteban went from 64 to 314.
2010 Winner QUINTANA ROJAS Nairo Alexander went from 72 to 60.
Essentially since the start of this game only Quintana and Foss have not entered into profit in the year after their Tour de l'Avenir victory. Everyone else barring Soler, Gaudu and perhaps Bernal and Johannessen were really solid picks too.
Ridiculous that I had such significant doubts about the (absolute) top youngsters being able to improve on their scores in their first pro year.
Edit: Funnily enough if you do the same exercise but with the U23 WCRR then only 5 out of 12 riders made profit.
Yep you can't really predict beforehand which riders is going to outperform expectations the most. Otherwise everybody would pick those dudes instead of them being selected half the time. At best you could look at managers that have consistently overperformed the field (like yourself or skidmark) and see if they have riders that they pick a lot more/less often than the rest of the field and use that to slightly adjust expectations for those riders. I remember doing a quick analysis that Roglic was way more popular with veterans of the game than the rest of the field last season and that turned out to be the right choice. But I haven't looked at anyone else so it might just be a coincidence.Yes, while Hugo's method is a fun attempt, there's really no way of making a general assumption about this pre-game. I think it was maybe @Armchair cyclist (or was it statistics guru Skibby?) who once made a post-season calculation of which riders made the biggest difference to the optimal team and came up with a 'penalty' for not having them. I.e. if you took out a rider from the optimal team, how much worse would it be? That was probably the most objective way you could look at it.
In practice, rare riders with huge seasons like De Lie 2022, Colbrelli 2021 and Teuns 2017 have single-handedly given their backers a good chance of being quite high up the standings. Things like having Roglic last year was of course a pre-requisite for being in the fight for a high placing, so he was obviously important in that respect, but he didn't really have a say in who won the game. That was down to rare picks like Healy and Kuss for BITB. Even when fauniera won the game while having the highest popularity ranking, you can say it was rare pick Uran that really made the difference. The more rare a rider is, I guess there's less chance that he'll be canceled out by equally good picks on other teams. Even though a good Hayter or Girmay could be important for getting a high placing, they'll be shared by half the teams and dont't say too much about whether you finish 1st or 50th.
Don't know if I'm even trying to make any point with this rambling, but the conclusion is, I guess, that everything is a bit too complex to assign big importance to any one pick or picks pre-game.
Pre-game, the only thing you can do with some confidence is maybe looking at head-to-head between specific teams. But even then, it's very possible that f.ex. my Pidcock and EITB's Ayuso cancel each other out, and that Oldani becoming Canola reincarnated or Vuillermoz partying like it's 2017 becomes the difference-maker. But @Earns1985 is right about how expensive picks have a bigger chance of rendering a big chunk of your budget 'unused', so to speak.
For me Hayter was in a tricky spot, with a few other viable picks.Ethan Hayter (476, 45): A rider just 25 years old that already has 2 1000-point seasons under his belt, who can top 10 most stage races without high altitude, who can top 10 both RR and TT Worlds (and by extension Olys), who is very handy in a reduced sprint, who just broke his collarbone twice in fairly quick succession last season but still had the grit to bounce back and have a strong end of year, and he costs less than half of his last two years? Sign me up. I am gobsmacked that he is this far down in the popularity list.
What happened to him?After Nys who is starting pretty late in the season and will miss out the classics
Nothing. Starting his RR season in Romandie and then GiroWhat happened to him?
Ah, yes. Now it seems like a pretty bad pick if he's skipping all the spring classics.Nothing. Starting his RR season in Romandie and then Giro
Focus on the CX WC in Tabor and after that going for training camp with the team. Next year he will do the classic seasonAh, yes. Now it seems like a pretty bad pick if he's skipping all the spring classics.Is this because his focus lies outside the road for this year?
I wasn't sure him or van Uden or both will be in his train so i picked neither. Without Jakobsen at DSM both would be obvious picksAfter Nys who is starting pretty late in the season and will miss out the classics, it seems that I have already the second regret in my team.
The hopeful sprint talent Tobias Lund Andresen is scheduled to be lead-out rider for Jakobsen in the giro.
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Supersprinter er klar til Grand Tour-double
Efter skiftet til Team dsm-firmenich PostNL er Fabio Jakobsen klar til både at køre Giro d’Italia og Tour de Francewww.feltet.dk
Thought, that after Dainese and Welsford went, there would be even more chances for him to ride on his own and not less.
Damn, riders should really encouraged to publish their schedules and season targets before the submission deadline of this game.
Yeah, Nys is the pick for next season game if he somehow won't score 500+Focus on the CX WC in Tabor and after that going for training camp with the team. Next year he will do the classic season
Yes, I was also between him and van Uden. Had van Uden last year, but Lund Andresen had the better results last year. So I thought, that he will have a better chance to be sprinter Nr.2 in the team this year.I wasn't sure him or van Uden or both will be in his train so i picked neither. Without Jakobsen at DSM both would be obvious picks
Well now i am disappointed too. I knew there was a risk but I though he was so good it would be worth it. And he wasn't the cheapest rider to land either. I guess things could change be now and then. I also got burned by Nys so we are not having a good start. I went with these types of riders instead of GT riders. So far it is back firing.Yes, I was also between him and van Uden. Had van Uden last year, but Lund Andresen had the better results last year. So I thought, that he will have a better chance to be sprinter Nr.2 in the team this year.
Let´s see how it will come in the end. Bol was also scheduled last year as lead-out rider for Cavendish, but in the end scored pretty well. But grand-tour as lead out rider for a sprinter is really the worst thing CQ wise.. A lot of racing days are gone without the expectation to score there.. When you are the second GC rider in a team in a tour, it´s still possible, that you can gain GC points in the end, if you don´t have to sacrifice yourself that much.
Come on! Don't leave us hanging! You gave us the more obvious ones, but I'm curious about the other half of your team. So far our teams ar every similar, although I bailed on Ayuso to get more depth (could really haunt me) and skipped Del Toro.For me Hayter was in a tricky spot, with a few other viable picks.
I chose Carapaz, Girmay and Higuita.
Cosnefroy being another omission.
Anyway, with Hayter it depends on the schedule he will ride or how much his focus will be on the Olympics. He won a silver medal last time on the track.
Most of his stage-racing points come from races like Bartali, Algarve, Tour of Norway, Tour of Britain, Tour de Polonge and Tour of Guangxi. Possible he might score many points if he only rides those sorts of races, but if he rides some other WT-races and only goes for stages + focus on Olympics it could be disappointing. I got unsure on the profit margin.
Without his score in Tour of Guangxi, at the end of last season, I would have probably picked him. He would have probably been far more popular in this game if he hadnt.
I am assuming you were meant to quote @skidmark on this one.Come on! Don't leave us hanging! You gave us the more obvious ones, but I'm curious about the other half of your team. So far our teams ar every similar, although I bailed on Ayuso to get more depth (could really haunt me) and skipped Del Toro.