The Armitstead doping thread.

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King Boonen said:
Eh? Rasmussen said he was in Mexico and was then spotted training in Italy, how is that similar?

You want to focus on one specific issue of the Rasmussen case. I suggest people pay heed to not just the wider issues, but also how the scandal unfolded - Rasmussen's reactions, the media's reactions - and what lessons should have been learned from it, by athletes ADOs. If you ask me, people like Cav and Froome learned from it, got ahead of the wave on their whereabouts failures. For some reason LA doesn't appear to, despite all the support BC have to offer her.
 
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fmk_RoI said:
King Boonen said:
Eh? Rasmussen said he was in Mexico and was then spotted training in Italy, how is that similar?

You want to focus on one specific issue of the Rasmussen case. I suggest people pay heed to not just the wider issues, but also how the scandal unfolded - Rasmussen's reactions, the media's reactions - and what lessons should have been learned from it, by athletes ADOs. If you ask me, people like Cav and Froome learned from it, got ahead of the wave on their whereabouts failures. For some reason LA doesn't appear to, despite all the support BC have to offer her.

Well Armitstead didn't claim she was having an affair, or that British Cycling were out to get her. The rest of the excuses "never tested positive", "tested the next day/same week/day before" can be applied to a multitude of different athletes.

If it's claimed that she was purposefully avoiding testers that she knew were there then Lance Armstrong or even Rio Ferdinand would be a better comparison.
 
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IndianCyclist said:
Eyeballs Out said:
I find it bizarre that she and BC and UKAD are having a meeting back in December to ensure that she doesn't have a 3rd strike. That conversation would have been hilarious. "Well, you could stop testing ho ho ho" / "Well, you could stop doping ho ho ho"

At this point presumably she and BC were accepting the 1st missed test
How is it possible that the athlete being tested, the organization that tests the athlete & the organization that gives racing licenses all collude to avoid a missed test. Massive conflicts of interest. :eek:
There are holes in her statements about the first strike.

Over-dramatic much?

Of all the points she makes in her defence these are the few that I find understandable. She makes a valid point that in men's pro racing people are employed to help look after riders' organisation. She says she sought and gained help from BC employer to help manage whereabouts. Note that is not the same as 'evade' testing.

After falling foul of what we now know looks like an incompetent tester she sought advice from UKAD as to how the systems are implemented.

Were she legitimately seeking to avoid a missed test occurring these two acts would be entirely reasonable.

Of course, the two steps didn't work as she went on to miss a further test.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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fmk_RoI said:
thehog said:
Don't worry about FMK, he likes to show off now and then. His information is good, not always right but most of the time he is.

Having to explain the same things over and over and over each time a new scandal erupts gets very old very quickly. Maybe there should be a manual or a FAQ, to explain to those who don't want to keep up but only dip in and out at scandal time. Things like the alphabet soup of CAS, WADA, NADOs like UKAD and USADA, UCI, NFs like BC and USAC, who each is, what they do, what they don't do. Things like how CAS works - normal procedures, expedited procedures, time taken to publish reasoned decisions etc, so people can see when things are really out of the norm. There's a lot of very basic facts get misunderstood every time a new scandal comes round and rather than checking them people like to scream blue murder.

Come come FMK.

Who are you to deny people indulging themselves with a little moral indignation, with your facts, you killjoy.

;)
 
Sep 8, 2015
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Nick C. said:
The whole Simon Thornton BC minder thing is weird. She is the reigning World Champion in her sport. Nobody bothers to tell her the guy they, according to her, specifically gave the job of monitoring her whereabouts info gets a new job. Further, they apparently don't give those duties to his replacement. So the whereabouts monitoring failsafe system they set up for the biggest star in the women's field of their sport just slips through the cracks. Very weird.

Either you would give those responsibilities to the replacement, or if not, would clearly communicate to the athlete that s/he was now expected to do it themselves.

There two "non sinister" options to explain this:
Option 1: this was intended to be done but wasn't due to an admin *** up
Option 2: it was intended for someone other than the athlete to be responsible but that person was not told due to a *** up.

Were either of those to be the case, it does not reflect well on the administrative competence of BC, given how important the whereabouts system is.
 
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Nick C. said:
The whole Simon Thornton BC minder thing is weird. She is the reigning World Champion in her sport. Nobody bothers to tell her the guy they, according to her, specifically gave the job of monitoring her whereabouts info gets a new job. Further, they apparently don't give those duties to his replacement. So the whereabouts monitoring failsafe system they set up for the biggest star in the women's field of their sport just slips through the cracks. Very weird.

For those familiar with the workings of BC - especially the post-Sky Sutton era but also pre - this failure is not all that shocking.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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I'm always surprised at how badly many people do their jobs, and to that extent I'll usually take incompetence over conspiracy in the absence of any clear cut facts.
 
Jun 28, 2015
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The British riders just continue to cheat...We all know it and it is just going to blew up very soon and then we will be back to where only one or two British riders are seen in the entire peloton...Just look at the United States.
 
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King Boonen said:
Worth bearing in mind that BC don't have a good reputation of taking care of female riders at the moment.

Edit: Sniped by fmk_Rol

You're being much more explicit then me: but yes, they are a sexist bunch by times and treat the women as second class citizens.
 
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bikinggirl said:
The British riders just continue to cheat...We all know it and it is just going to blew up very soon and then we will be back to where only one or two British riders are seen in the entire peloton...Just look at the United States.

Out of interest: which country's riders are completely clean in the current peloton?
 
May 26, 2010
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Athlete reaches the top of her sport and dominates, but is incompetent enough to miss 3 OOC tests........pull t'other one.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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bikinggirl said:
The British riders just continue to cheat...We all know it and it is just going to blew up very soon and then we will be back to where only one or two British riders are seen in the entire peloton...Just look at the United States.

Did Nibali win the Giro clean?
Did Sagan win the WC clean?
Did Aru win the Vuelta clean?

Why do you have such a big chip on your shoulder about British riders winning.

Do you think all the other winners did it clean? :lol: :lol:
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Brits are overdoing it, kwikki, why are u constantly deflecting away from that?
We,ve spent several years focusing on Spain, Contador and USPS.
Those guys have been exposed. Clinic,s been there done that.
Brits are having their golden sports era now. Tough luck for them that it coincides with the growth of social media.
Now lets stop deflecting away from one of the most ridiculous cycling eras ever, dominated by Brits.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
thehog said:
Don't worry about FMK, he likes to show off now and then. His information is good, not always right but most of the time he is.

Having to explain the same things over and over and over each time a new scandal erupts gets very old very quickly. Maybe there should be a manual or a FAQ, to explain to those who don't want to keep up but only dip in and out at scandal time. Things like the alphabet soup of CAS, WADA, NADOs like UKAD and USADA, UCI, NFs like BC and USAC, who each is, what they do, what they don't do. Things like how CAS works - normal procedures, expedited procedures, time taken to publish reasoned decisions etc, so people can see when things are really out of the norm. There's a lot of very basic facts get misunderstood every time a new scandal comes round and rather than checking them people like to scream blue murder.

I think you tend to pontificate, not everyone is expected to everything at one time. Its a discussion & information forum. Whilst its understandable it does get boring when one repeats over and over again about "brown paper bags and envelopes" without discussing the finer points of anti-doping law.
 
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sniper said:
Brits are overdoing it, kwikki, why are u constantly deflecting away from that?
We,ve spent several years focusing on Spain, Contador and USPS.
Those guys have been exposed. Clinic,s been there done that.
Brits are having their golden sports era now. Tough luck for them that it coincides with the growth of social media.
Now lets stop deflecting away from one of the most ridiculous cycling eras ever, dominated by Brits.

I've got no problem with that. But when people hate on Brits for doping while cheering the likes of Contador Valverde Nibali or anyone else successful as if they're some heroes fighting against the dirty dopers...
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
sniper said:
Brits are overdoing it, kwikki, why are u constantly deflecting away from that?
We,ve spent several years focusing on Spain, Contador and USPS.
Those guys have been exposed. Clinic,s been there done that.
Brits are having their golden sports era now. Tough luck for them that it coincides with the growth of social media.
Now lets stop deflecting away from one of the most ridiculous cycling eras ever, dominated by Brits.

I've got no problem with that. But when people hate on Brits for doping while cheering the likes of Contador Valverde Nibali or anyone else successful as if they're some heroes fighting against the dirty dopers...
thats absolutely fair.
but it brings us back to the issue of perceived hypocricy, and how that hypocricy steers and shapes the debate.
Anglophones currently dont only dominate cycling, they also dominate in the area of brain insulting antidoping PR.
 
Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
sniper said:
Brits are overdoing it, kwikki, why are u constantly deflecting away from that?
We,ve spent several years focusing on Spain, Contador and USPS.
Those guys have been exposed. Clinic,s been there done that.
Brits are having their golden sports era now. Tough luck for them that it coincides with the growth of social media.
Now lets stop deflecting away from one of the most ridiculous cycling eras ever, dominated by Brits.

I've got no problem with that. But when people hate on Brits for doping while cheering the likes of Contador Valverde Nibali or anyone else successful as if they're some heroes fighting against the dirty dopers...
I think part of it may be a kind of rejection of what is seen as a very hypocritical and arrogant stance; because the current crop of Britons have yet to really have their moment where it comes crashing down - their Operación Puerto, their Festina Affair, their Reasoned Decision. As a result, we're still being sold the narrative that this is all being done clean, and - and this particular part is in a large way less their fault than others - the rise of social media makes the message harder to keep without constant reiteration meaning we're being bludgeoned over the head, over and over again, with it to the point where even when they've stopped repeating certain talking points they keep being used as a stick to beat them with. Most of us have seen this narrative many times. Most of us have seen many similarities in many ways on multiple levels that cause us to think that there's a very strong chance that the Emperor is, in fact, naked. There is certainly a feeling of resentment among many, and a bitterness as many feel that doping in the name of clean competition is somehow more offensive than doping unapologetically. And, let's make no bones about it, quite simply many of the people involved are simply unlikable. Yes, many of them are reacting under duress and pressure and in the face of some pretty harsh treatment (another effect of social media, the fact that fans spitting out the narrative they're being asked to swallow has become a story in and of itself - the fanbase is much harder to control now, and the Britons are simply the ones unfortunate to be the ones having their turn at the top at the time that became the case) and so sometimes the reactions are understandable. But the likes of Peter Kennaugh, to pick one example, have shown themselves on a number of occasions to be pretty difficult guys to support, and he's far from the only one. It's not surprising that some fans would cheer not necessarily for the dopers who are unapologetic or less subtle, but against the ones they think are dopers who aren't likely to be called to account or who they see as getting away with things in plain sight or who they suspect (sometimes with some justification, sometimes on the flimsiest of evidence) are protected or being treated with overt favouritism even if this entails cheering for unapologetic or less subtle dopers (I mean, look at the fervour with which we were told cycling was clean now after the 2011-12 Tours, and the success of the new clean template with Sky - so to see convicted unapologetic doper Aleksandr Vinokourov triumphing at the Olympics in the first big event of the Games, which had been so proudly earmarked as the golden beginning for the home team, and see the whole marketing shebang blow up in the face of the widely disliked Pat McQuaid, was greeted with much more positivity than it ought to have been). Which, sure, is just as hypocritical as the athletes seemingly claiming their victories as triumphs of clean competition despite doping, but this kind of Schadenfreude is something that we all have.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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When was Sagan's Puerto? When was Aru and Nibali’s?

The big giveaway is the fact that one single nationality is being focused on.

USPS/Discovery didn't just consist of US riders. Sky doesn't just consist of British.
 
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kwikki said:
When was Sagan's Puerto? When was Aru and Nibali’s?

The big giveaway is the fact that one single nationality is being focused on.

USPS/Discovery didn't just consist of US riders. Sky doesn't just consist of British.
And my comment is not about Sky but about the success of, and suspicion of, the horrible corporate creation that is "Team GB" across the board. Armitstead isn't a Sky rider and has in fact had many run-ins with British Cycling in recent history herself. I don't see how Sagan or Aru factor into my point to be honest.

That said, I do think Sagan doesn't get anything like the attention in the Clinic he should, but then, as with Armitstead, my personal bias factors into that significantly - they are two riders I absolutely can't stand, so am liable to treat them harsher in the circumstances than others. It certainly would appear that fans judge most harshly those that they neither believe in nor find entertaining. Beyond that, domination breeds antipathy, and perceived arrogance breeds antipathy, so because they're being extremely successful right now, in many - but not all, and Lizzie is an exception - cases doing this in a style that fans don't enjoy, and being perceived as arrogant in some cases and, in the worst cases, insulting the intelligence of the fans, it's no surprise to find a disproportionate number of them being called out here. The Olympics are the biggest time for conflation of team, athlete and nation, as well, which definitely affects things too.
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
PremierAndrew said:
sniper said:
Brits are overdoing it, kwikki, why are u constantly deflecting away from that?
We,ve spent several years focusing on Spain, Contador and USPS.
Those guys have been exposed. Clinic,s been there done that.
Brits are having their golden sports era now. Tough luck for them that it coincides with the growth of social media.
Now lets stop deflecting away from one of the most ridiculous cycling eras ever, dominated by Brits.

I've got no problem with that. But when people hate on Brits for doping while cheering the likes of Contador Valverde Nibali or anyone else successful as if they're some heroes fighting against the dirty dopers...
thats absolutely fair.
but it brings us back to the issue of perceived hypocricy, and how that hypocricy steers and shapes the debate.
Anglophones currently dont only dominate cycling, they also dominate in the area of brain insulting antidoping PR.

exactly.......Nutella and Ellinworth's ripped pages
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Perceived domination. Perceived arrogance.

Perception is personal. It's shaped by ones own psyche.

Has anyone asked Sagan if he dopes? What did he answer?

Nibali was asked....did he admit or deny?
 
May 26, 2010
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Nibali has own thread.

Aru has own thread

Sagan has own thread.

Why derail this one?

Edit:disrail never tested positive. :surprised: