The Armstrong talking points

[Oldman]

Please add Italian, Belgium, and French Police. Interpol, KGB, Scotland Yard.
I never denied Lance is a bad bad man.
Not the worst there is - but he is near the top of the list for sure:

1) Chef Duffy
2) Lance
3) THE WICKED WITCH OF THE WEST
4) Austrian Human Plasma Lab Inc
5) DARTH VADER
6) HANNIBAL LECTER
7) Alberto's People
8) Dr Ferrarri
9) MR. BURNS
10) VOLDEMORT
11) NURSE RATCHET
12) Dr Fuentes
13) tie - Phil and Paul
15) NORMAN BATES

You are seriously underselling Mr. Burns, especially considering numbers 3,5,6 weren't evil enough to still be alive. Polish you really know how to get me going...

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I do not know but you might ask them.

Seems many Americans got asked to measure the impact sports has on values and culture in the U.S, and most consider PED's a huge problem. Relative to Armstrong, this problem will not be brushed aside as a justifiable means to an end when the prevailing attitude is as such. Doping is cheating. Cheating is simply wrong, and no amount of yellow bracelets, cancer pamphlets, stadiums or whatever other thing, will make it OK.

The findings of a PED survey just got published, here is a link to the story: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=6220145

Lance has said he'd "cooperate" with any investigation. If he defines "cooperation" as interfering, politically, with those who are investigating him, then he is being duplicitous in his remarks. As the pressure turns up, it will be very telling to see how "cooperative" he is.

He should save the citizens of the USA the tax money, simply accept that his scheme has been discovered and submit to justice. It will only get worse, the more they dig.

 

[dancing on pedals]

judging b.y the amount of time Mr Armstromg spent in the showers when the door knocked i would think Norman Bates should gain a place or two......
thanks

 

[flicker]

Seems many Americans got asked to measure the impact sports has on values and culture in the U.S, and most consider PED's a huge problem. Relative to Armstrong, this problem will not be brushed aside as a justifiable means to an end when the prevailing attitude is as such. Doping is cheating. Cheating is simply wrong, and no amount of yellow bracelets, cancer pamphlets, stadiums or whatever other thing, will make it OK.

The findings of a PED survey just got published, here is a link to the story: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=6220145

Lance has said he'd "cooperate" with any investigation. If he defines "cooperation" as interfering, politically, with those who are investigating him, then he is being duplicitous in his remarks. As the pressure turns up, it will be very telling to see how "cooperative" he is.

He should save the citizens of the USA the tax money, simply accept that his scheme has been discovered and submit to justice. It will only get worse, the more they dig.

I appreciate the survey however, it did not say if we were speaking about pro sports in general and cycling in particular.

I think PED use among elite European and American cyclists would have been a better poll.

Another question I have is whether the what percentage of the polled were cycling fans, to what degree did they follow pro cycling, have they ever raced themselves, or known someone who has raced, how long have they been a cycling fan, and which races do they follow.

To me this would make the ESPN poll more pertinent in regards to sports fans views on PED use.

 

[MacRoadie]

Another question I have is whether the what percentage of the polled were cycling fans, to what degree did they follow pro cycling, have they ever raced themselves, or known someone who has raced, how long have they been a cycling fan, and which races do they follow.

Sure, and to get an equally unbiased poll we can ask Michael Vick's friends what they think about dog fighting.

 

[flicker]

Sure, and to get an equally unbiased poll we can ask Michael Vick's friends what they think about dog fighting.

Come on Mc Roadie,

How many hardcore cyclingfans such as yourself do you know. Compare that to your friends, co-workers, and reletives who watch sports. Listen to the phone in radio sports on the radio in your area.
Now take the percentage of sports fans in your poll and the percentage of the hardcore guys such as yourself.

My guess is maybe 1 in 200 of your associates knows a 10th about cycling as you. Now ask that group what they think about ped use in cycling and other sports. I think your poll would be more accurate if you asdked the 1 in 200 sports fans. They cannot be clinic forum posters either.

 

[flicker]

I think that to get a true poll on what Americans think about PEDs in sports, these call in sports radio shows would be better to ask what Sports fans know about PED use. I have heard enlightened discussion on those shows, the commentators and the people who call in are serious fans, by in large very informed on what they are speaking about.

 

[red_flanders]

I think that to get a true poll on what Americans think about PEDs in sports, these call in sports radio shows would be better to ask what Sports fans know about PED use. I have heard enlightened discussion on those shows, the commentators and the people who call in are serious fans, by in large very informed on what they are speaking about.

Can you point me to those shows? Most of the ones I like and watch, like PTI, treat doping in cycling with the "steroid era" analysis. In other words, they're essentially clueless and frankly don't care.

 

[Polish]

The study, conducted by Discovery Education, sampled parents, teachers, coaches, and kids. I would have thought the results would have been even MORE overwhelming. Maybe they forget to sample the counselors?

Drugs are bad. They're bad...

http://www.discoveryeducation.com/


Maybe some of the parents/coaches/teachers were masters dopers?
Maybe some fanboys in there too?

 

[MacRoadie]

Come on Mc Roadie,

How many hardcore cyclingfans such as yourself do you know. Compare that to your friends, co-workers, and reletives who watch sports. Listen to the phone in radio sports on the radio in your area.
Now take the percentage of sports fans in your poll and the percentage of the hardcore guys such as yourself.

My guess is maybe 1 in 200 of your associates knows a 10th about cycling as you. Now ask that group what they think about ped use in cycling and other sports. I think your poll would be more accurate if you asdked the 1 in 200 sports fans. They cannot be clinic forum posters either.

Wrong again. 100% wrong.

The point of the poll was to measure the general perception of PED's within the general population, not some hand-picked focus group. Unfortunately for your boy, his defense counsel can't request that a "jury of his peers" be comprised solely of "hardcore cycling fans". It's like asking what the general population thinks about illegal immigration, then only polling California and Arizona residents.

The jury pool will come from that same group of respondants to the poll.

 

[flicker]

Can you point me to those shows? Most of the ones I like and watch, like PTI, treat doping in cycling with the "steroid era" analysis. In other words, they're essentially clueless and frankly don't care.

KNBR 680 AM San Francisco. I do not know if they are available on the web.

The commentator made an interesting comment about Armstrong there about 3 months ago, when the investigation was all over the news. He said (and this is my synapsis)

'It is a three week race over the hardest mountains of the world. 100 miles per day 2700 miles total. Three weeks.
It would be crazy to think the cyclists in the tour should not be using PEDs Armstrong and team included.'

That is what I heard him say. He is a rational guy who does the sports shows every day. You can disagree with him if you like. They discuss whatever the current sport of the season is.

Being American and watching Manny Rodriguez play for the Bo Sox was pretty much of an eye opener as far as PED use goes in US sports,the opinion of baseball fans, Manny's penalty with the Dodgers,(what was it 6 weeks or 3 months) for being positive for steroids, and his come back, and acceptance with the fans. I mean one of the most entertaining and consistent Pro ball players I have seen, a total clutch hitter, challenging every pitch and making every play on the field. How many in the poll watched Manny in the series, knew who he is, or knew he was later suspended for steroids. I doubt Manny's fans quit being his fan because of the roids. Of course the opposing teams fans put banners up denouncing Manny at the games, but that is to be expected.

I do not have cable so I do not watch ESPN. I would like to know what their informed commentators have to say about PED use in American sports. They seem to be pretty sharp when it comes to these things.
I think their poll is not true pertaining to cycling and all things Armstrong.
On that topic things are skewed, biased uninformed and many people who are relatively new to the sport have strong opinions without the full understanding of the history of professional cycling. IMO.

 

[flicker]

Wrong again. 100% wrong.

The point of the poll was to measure the general perception of PED's within the general population, not some hand-picked focus group. Unfortunately for your boy, his defense counsel can't request that a "jury of his peers" be comprised solely of "hardcore cycling fans". It's like asking what the general population thinks about illegal immigration, then only polling California and Arizona residents.

The jury pool will come from that same group of respondants to the poll.

Hey Mc, Armstrong might be guilty and then again he might not. We are talking American legal system here, right?

I think it goes like this: 'Beyond a reasonable doubt'

 

[Oldman]

Hey Mc, Armstrong might be guilty and then again he might not. We are talking American legal system here, right?

I think it goes like this: 'Beyond a reasonable doubt'

Grand juries are different and the charges could come from any number of agencies. If there are multiple issues between the IRS and USADA those involved could face multiple prosecutions and not all before a Grand Jury. Once the door opens on some of these charges Lance's best hope is to cop a plea and testify against the next guy. He may never hear a jury's finding.

 

[fatandfast]

Grand juries are different and the charges could come from any number of agencies. If there are multiple issues between the IRS and USADA those involved could face multiple prosecutions and not all before a Grand Jury. Once the door opens on some of these charges Lance's best hope is to cop a plea and testify against the next guy. He may never hear a jury's finding.

The current trial of Raj Rajaratnam is incredible. 17 convictions of people that may testify against him. Lots of press in NY about these convictions.

Reported that some guys pleaded guilty to securities fraud so that their sexual habits would not be public record. Guys with things from securities fraud to bad tax returns for 100's of 1000's spent at go-go bars.

Armstrong may feel that he has done nothing wrong but when a parade of orange jumpsuit guys come in and say he is guilty of something there is no need for reasonable doubt. Naj is finding out even if he is not guilty 17 people he hangs out with being guilty is going to be enough to toast him. Lance's deal will go from bad to worse if the FDA says we don't have enough but the IRS or some other agency can make the case. They love going after celebrities.

 

[Race Radio]

The current trial of Raj Rajaratnam is incredible. 17 convictions of people that may testify against him. Lots of press in NY about these convictions.

Reported that some guys pleaded guilty to securities fraud so that their sexual habits would not be public record. Guys with things from securities fraud to bad tax returns for 100's of 1000's spent at go-go bars.

Armstrong may feel that he has done nothing wrong but when a parade of orange jumpsuit guys come in and say he is guilty of something there is no need for reasonable doubt. Naj is finding out even if he is not guilty 17 people he hangs out with being guilty is going to be enough to toast him. Lance's deal will go from bad to worse if the FDA says we don't have enough but the IRS or some other agency can make the case. They love going after celebrities.

And here we have the latest talking point.....any witness who testify against wonderboy had to be bribed/coerced into doing so.

You should try to be less obvious

 

[fatandfast]

And here we have the latest talking point.....any witness who testify against wonderboy had to be bribed/coerced into doing so.

You should try to be less obvious

That sucks thats the way you see it. There are plenty of people willing to step up and say what they think are the facts. I take Betsy as totally credible. There are others they may talk, not because it's something they feel strongly about but are compelled to for a long list of reasons.

Some ex-riders and team staff may have seen things that they question or know that are wrong. As life plays out you don't always wake up and take on the task of making the world right. The list of publicly acknowledged people who have something to say about Lance are heavily biased toward your coerced description.

Walsh,Kimmage discovered things they thought were worthy of investigation. Both did good jobs of finding facts that made Armstrong appear to be guilty of some kind of wrongdoing. Landis and his timeline are completely different, his admission to all the world, including Novitzky are as coerced by personal bitterness and financial gain or meltdown depending on your view.

The Andreau's, Popo, Ekimov,Bruyneel, Stapelton and others didn't come forward to make things right regardless of their own criminal status. Police work doesn't work on the 5th. If any one or all of those guys have been fooling around on their wives it will become relevant. Just the way it works. Johan is not allowed to say he is not interested in talking about Lance even if he is accused of nothing. If they ask you that is it, done over you are going to talk. If you don't think that Landis is a serial bribery behavior offender you simply have not read his history. The Andreau's ask for nothing Landis asks for everything

Some uptight congressman says leave the icon alone. I agree for a different reason. I want the FDA to check my food not my bike racers. Because funding/personnel are unavailable the largest number of PEDs in human history is allowed in the US food supply. They just lowered the bar..again for GM foods because they don't think some genetic modifications are worthy of investigation. Lots of people think the FDA's Jeffery Shuren lied under oath. Leave Armstrong alone not because he is or is not guilty but because it not your job. Food and Drug lets narrow the focus and exclude buses and musette bags from 10 years ago

 

[Dr. Maserati]

That sucks thats the way you see it. There are plenty of people willing to step up and say what they think are the facts. I take Betsy as totally credible. There are others they may talk, not because it's something they feel strongly about but are compelled to for a long list of reasons.

Some ex-riders and team staff may have seen things that they question or know that are wrong. As life plays out you don't always wake up and take on the task of making the world right. The list of publicly acknowledged people who have something to say about Lance are heavily biased toward your coerced description.

Walsh,Kimmage discovered things they thought were worthy of investigation. Both did good jobs of finding facts that made Armstrong appear to be guilty of some kind of wrongdoing. Landis and his timeline are completely different, his admission to all the world, including Novitzky are as coerced by personal bitterness and financial gain or meltdown depending on your view.

The Andreau's, Popo, Ekimov,Bruyneel, Stapelton and others didn't come forward to make things right regardless of their own criminal status. Police work doesn't work on the 5th. If any one or all of those guys have been fooling around on their wives it will become relevant. Just the way it works. Johan is not allowed to say he is not interested in talking about Lance even if he is accused of nothing. If they ask you that is it, done over you are going to talk. If you don't think that Landis is a serial bribery behavior offender you simply have not read his history. The Andreau's ask for nothing Landis asks for everything

Some uptight congressman says leave the icon alone. I agree for a different reason. I want the FDA to check my food not my bike racers. Because funding/personnel are unavailable the largest number of PEDs in human history is allowed in the US food supply. They just lowered the bar..again for GM foods because they don't think some genetic modifications are worthy of investigation. Lots of people think the FDA's Jeffery Shuren lied under oath. Leave Armstrong alone not because he is or is not guilty but because it not your job. Food and Drug lets narrow the focus and exclude buses and musette bags from 10 years ago

So you want the Food and Drug Administration to just become the Food and (only some types of) Drug Administration?

If Landis admissions were for "financial gain" then why did he sit down with Kimmage and give a 7 hour interview and not claim a dime?

 

[jimmypop]

Just sort of a general observation, but I'm quite sure that the superfans (the non-paid who are clued into the talking points via email lists) will always deny Armstrong's guilt in public, even if he were to be convicted, sentenced and sent to prison.

The main point: These individuals are to be pitied.

 

[fatandfast]

Dear Doctor. Landis sat down because he has nothing to sell. His life depends on getting some whistle blower cash. He is going to remake 127 Hours without the happy homecoming.

Yes I want the FDA to stick to either food or drugs one or the other. They are screwing up trying to oversee both. Don't get me started on the ATF. I wonder how many non US readers know we have an agency called Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms(and explosives) just like the people keeping track of our food and drugs they are doing a bang up job. According to Landis's story Lance was driving drunk a few times so maybe they can take over soon.

If their report cards are based on drug poisonings or handgun deaths there is no grade low enough. Tell the mom who kid OD's on some mislabeled drug or food that Armstrong was more important.

 

[eleven]

So you want the Food and Drug Administration to just become the Food and (only some types of) Drug Administration?

If Landis admissions were for "financial gain" then why did he sit down with Kimmage and give a 7 hour interview and not claim a dime?

well, I don't believe Landis' admission was strictly for financial gain; but he can certainly gain financially by telling more of his story and keeping his story in the news.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Dear Doctor. Landis sat down because he has nothing to sell. His life depends on getting some whistle blower cash. He is going to remake 127 Hours without the happy homecoming.

Yes I want the FDA to stick to either food or drugs one or the other. They are screwing up trying to oversee both. Don't get me started on the ATF. I wonder how many non US readers know we have an agency called Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms(and explosives) just like the people keeping track of our food and drugs they are doing a bang up job. According to Landis's story Lance was driving drunk a few times so maybe they can take over soon.

If their report cards are based on drug poisonings or handgun deaths there is no grade low enough. Tell the mom who kid OD's on some mislabeled drug or food that Armstrong was more important.

If the guy is so strapped for cash then why not sell the story and get the whistle-blower money?
In fact his story to the press doesn't have to be true for him to get paid - where it certainly does for the whistle-blower action.

Obviously the FDA point is something you have thought long about - did you contact your local politicians or the Federal Government to articulate your distress at the way they work before May of last year?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

well, I don't believe Landis' admission was strictly for financial gain; but he can certainly gain financially by telling more of his story and keeping his story in the news.

How do you gain financially when you sit down and do a 7 hour (30,000 word) interview that appears on NYVC?

 

[eleven]

How do you gain financially when you sit down and do a 7 hour (30,000 word) interview that appears on NYVC?

You increase the media exposure related to your story - which increases the value of your next book, interview, or anything else with your name attached. People who read these stories will be more inclined to purchase future products related to them.

 

[MacRoadie]

Hey Mc, Armstrong might be guilty and then again he might not. We are talking American legal system here, right?

I think it goes like this: 'Beyond a reasonable doubt'

Yes, we are. That would be why I stated that the jury pool (if it comes to that) will be from a broad spectrum of the general population.

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make (if there even is one).

On one hand you suggest that a survey on the perceptions of PED's by the general American population would be better served by targeting a very narrowly defined segment of the population (thereby reflecting the focus group's perception and not that of the general population). You suggest the poll would have been better served by introducing strong bias.

You then you want to "remind" me about how the US legal system works. A system that relies on utilizing a jury of the defendant's peers, drawn from the very same "unbiased" general population you are so willing to dismiss in the case of the PED survey.

So, you want a survey of PEDs but only if it is conducted amongst "hardcore cycling fans" (who may well be sympathetic to the use of PEDs), but if your boy Armstrong does stand trial, you are ready to champion his consitutional right to a jury of his peers, which ostensibly would not include anyone with strong bias towards or against PEDs (like "hardcore cycling fans").

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You increase the media exposure related to your story - which increases the value of your next book, interview, or anything else with your name attached. People who read these stories will be more inclined to purchase future products related to them.

Not when you tell the whole story as Landis has.