The Banesto Train in the mountains

[Exroadman24902]

I don't? When have I ever said that? I have written about Indurain and Banesto using an organized, team wide doping program many times.

Is court the only place this can be proven? After all your obsession Indurain never tested positive.

Do you respect the merit of Indurain and Armstrong 7 grand tour wins equally? I do. I don't think you do otherwise you'd be repeating allegations about Indurain on a daily basis but you're not. Go on youtube or buy the DVDs and you'll see where the USPS train idea came from in the 1990s.

 

[dbrmuz]

Do you respect the merit of Indurain and Armstrong 7 grand tour wins equally? I do. I don't think you do otherwise you'd be repeating allegations about Indurain on a daily basis but you're not. Go on youtube or buy the DVDs and you'll see where the USPS train idea came from in the 1990s.

If we'd found it on You Tube it'd be linked in here.If you found it on You Tube you could link it in here...couldn't you?

 

[Race Radio]

Do you respect the merit of Indurain and Armstrong 7 grand tour wins equally? I do. I don't think you do otherwise you'd be repeating allegations about Indurain on a daily basis but you're not. Go on youtube or buy the DVDs and you'll see where the USPS train idea came from in the 1990s.

Time for the meds dude, you are not making sense.

 

[Exroadman24902]

Time for the meds dude, you are not making sense.

Nice, resorting to insults is your style. Any chance you could answer the question I asked in my last reply to you. Do you respect the 7 grand tour wins of Miguel Indurain and Lance Armstrong equally?

 

[dbrmuz]

Time for the meds dude, you are not making sense.

I think he's got a few dvd's he's keen to offload...

 

[Race Radio]

Nice, resorting to insults is your style. Any chance you could answer the question I asked in my last reply to you. Do you respect the 7 grand tour wins of Miguel Indurain and Lance Armstrong equally?

It is not an insult. You are not making any sense. If you really think that there will be as much discussion on an English language board about a Spanish guy who retired 15 years ago then you have a tenuous grip on reality and may want to seek help. Armstrong retired a few months ago. He is the target of a large Federal investigation that is ongoing. This board is largely populated by Americans. To pretend that they would be equally interested in a rider who most know nothing about is absurd.

I have written many times that I thought Indurain was a chemical invention and most here agree with me. You choose to ignore this as you are only looking for an argument where there is none. I suggest that instead of searching for a fight you explore other avenues to take out this aggression, like a bike ride or professional help.

 

[Exroadman24902]

It is not an insult. You are not making any sense. If you really think that there will be as much discussion on an English language board about a Spanish guy who retired 15 years ago then you have a tenuous grip on reality and may want to seek help. Armstrong retired a few months ago. He is the target of a large Federal investigation that is ongoing. This board is largely populated by Americans. To pretend that they would be equally interested in a rider who most know nothing about is absurd.

I have written many times that I thought Indurain was a chemical invention and most here agree with me. You choose to ignore this as you are only looking for an argument where there is none. I suggest that instead of searching for a fight you explore other avenues to take out this aggression, like a bike ride or professional help.

Yes, it is an insult in many people's book to be called mentally ill (time for meds comment by you). It's always a good sign you have lost the debate when you need to insult people who don't agree with you. Can you answer the question I asked you please.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, it is an insult in many people's book to be called mentally ill (time for meds comment by you). It's always a good sign you have lost the debate when you need to insult people who don't agree with you. Can you answer the question I asked you please.

I, and others, have answered your question multiple times. You have ignored these answers. The only rational assumption is that you are intentionally trolling for a confrontation or you are unable to comprehend what has been written.

 

[Exroadman24902]

I, and others, have answered your question multiple times. You have ignored these answers. The only rational assumption is that you are intentionally trolling for a confrontation or you are unable to comprehend what has been written.

I asked if you respect the the 7 grand tour wins of Miguel and Lance equally and you didn't say yes or no. You just said you believe Indurain doped too, which isn't saying you respect the wins of them both. I know you only want to bash Armstrong and forget about Indurain so the answer is obvious. You don't respect LAs wins, you do Indurain's yet you agree Indurain also doped. What a nonsensical point of view you take

 

[Race Radio]

I asked if you respect the the 7 grand tour wins of Miguel and Lance equally and you didn't say yes or no. You just said you believe Indurain doped too, which isn't saying you respect the wins of them both. I know you only want to bash Armstrong and forget about Indurain so the answer is obvious. You don't respect LAs wins, you do Indurain's yet you agree Indurain also doped. What a nonsensical point of view you take

Thanks for proving my point

 

[Exroadman24902]

Thanks for proving my point

that you're a fickle anti-doper really.

 

[dancing on pedals]

If you are looking for a starting point of trains and team riding why not use Bottechia's 1924 victory with the Buysse brothers and the Automoto team as the template? Or even more extreme the 1928 tour when 15 of the 22 stages were team time trials?
My recolllection is that the Banesto team was competant but certainly not dominant in a US Postal fashion - team time trials throughout the period would seem to reflect that -Banesto performance TTT
1991 10th a 1'05''
1992 7th a 50''
1993 7th a 1'22''
1994 3rd a 18''
1995 5rd a 50''
US postal performance TTT
2000 - 2nd a 26''
2001 4th a 1'26''
2002 2nd a 16''
2003 1st -
2004 1st
2005 1st
Indeed whereas Armstrong could pretty much rely on his team to put time into his rivals Indurain generally lost time to his main rivals in the TTT. In the mountains I certainly don't remember any "blue Train" type riding from the Banesto boys - Bernard, Delgado and Gérard Rue and others gave suppport at vital moments but no way was it comparable to the sort of help Armstrong recieved.
thanks

 

[dancing on pedals]

In fact, Indurain's teams got weaker as time went on the 1991 team (built for Delgado not Indurain) was probably the strongest he ever had -

Delgado, Alonso,Arnaud, Bernard, Indurain,Lukin, Philipot, Rodriguez Magrto, Rondon,
They won the team classification that year with 4 riders in the top 15.
However as Indurain contnued to dominate his teams got weaker his 1996 team was
Indurain M, Alonso, Aparicio (ab 17), Arrieta, Indurain P, Jiminez, Miranda (ab 4) Rodrigues, Uriarte,
What had started as a multi national team of depth and strength had degenerated to a group of competant riders from the Iberian peninsular, whose best placed rider after indurain (11th) was Arrieta nearly and hour behind. .
In contrast Armstrongs teams got stronger as time progressed - bringing in other GT winners as super domestiques -
1999 - Armstrong, Andreu, Derame, Hamilton, Hincapie, Livinston, Meinert Nielson (ab 13) Vandevelde, Vaughters (ab 2)
2005 Armstrong, Azevedo,Beltran, Hincapie, Noval, Padrnos, Popovych, Rubiera and Savoldelli.
It is in fact the exact reverse to what happened to the Banesto team - USPostal started with a team of competant riders mainly from North America and ended with a juggernaut of international talent gained by cheque book management
I don't think there is any comparison between the Blue Train of Armstrong and the Banesto teams of Indurain, either in style or approach
thanks

 

[Race Radio]

that you're a fickle anti-doper really.

I have never used doping as the only ethical measure of a person, that is very simplistic. I can see why you are attracted to it though.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I asked if you respect the the 7 grand tour wins of Miguel and Lance equally and you didn't say yes or no. You just said you believe Indurain doped too, which isn't saying you respect the wins of them both. I know you only want to bash Armstrong and forget about Indurain so the answer is obvious. You don't respect LAs wins, you do Indurain's yet you agree Indurain also doped. What a nonsensical point of view you take

For the hundredth time, THEY BOTH DOPED. Only one went on and on about how "clean" he was and how he, as a cancer survivor, would never ever (or is that never never never) put anything dangerous in his body, and how we just had to believe in miracles, and the cadence and the weight loss and the hookers. The other one at least had the good grace to mostly just keep his pie hole shut. So no, respect not equal. Now go take your meds.

 

[Exroadman24902]

I have never used doping as the only ethical measure of a person, that is very simplistic. I can see why you are attracted to it though.

I too dislike bullies like LA, his opportunistic hijacking of cancer, the PR machine he ran to potray himself as the opposite of what he is. Indurain was far easier to like. But the media left Indurain alone..it was before internet, before EPO issue got big attention and before Festina and before media scrutiny got so intense, so who knows how Indurain would have responded if the quiestion was asked very often?

I still like watching Indurain on la plagne..the way he makes Tonkov sit up, brutal pace. Anyway, I am done on this thread

 

[dancing on pedals]

what makes me laf is that posters here pretend to know the facts - the fact is that indurain's team got weaker over the years - if there was a dopage connection it was well hidden, both in results and in racing style.
Race Radio claims to know that Indurain and his team doped - i doubt it - and if they did they made a pretty poor stab at it,
they got overwhelmed by the epo users in 1996- (vision Riis riding up and down the survivors) they got hammered.
thanks

 

[hrotha]

what makes me laf is that posters here pretend to know the facts - the fact is that indurain's team got weaker over the years - if there was a dopage connection it was well hidden, both in results and in racing style.
Race Radio claims to know that Indurain and his team doped - i doubt it - and if they did they made a pretty poor stab at it,
they got overwhelmed by the epo users in 1996- (vision Riis riding up and down the survivors) they got hammered.
thanks

Thomas Davy testified that Banesto had a team-wide doping program in place by 1994-1995. Indurain got hammered at that Tour, but he destroyed those same EPO users one year before (including Riis) and 1996 was one of his most successful seasons up to the Tour (also including his Olympic gold medal).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

what makes me laf is that posters here pretend to know the facts - the fact is that indurain's team got weaker over the years - if there was a dopage connection it was well hidden, both in results and in racing style.
Race Radio claims to know that Indurain and his team doped - i doubt it - and if they did they made a pretty poor stab at it,
they got overwhelmed by the epo users in 1996- (vision Riis riding up and down the survivors) they got hammered.
thanks

Of course the reason RR knows his facts is because of Davys testimony to the Festina trial:

"In Banesto, there was a system of doping with medical supervision," Thomas Davy, who rode with Banesto from 1995 to 1996, told the court.

Adding to this is that Indurain was working with Conconi and Padilla.

 

[dancing on pedals]

Thomas Davy testified that Banesto had a team-wide doping program in place by 1994-1995. Indurain got hammered at that Tour, but he destroyed those same EPO users one year before (including Riis) and 1996 was one of his most successful seasons up to the Tour (also including his Olympic gold medal).

no doubt - but Davy also testified against Castorama, Telekom and La Francaise des Jeux teams. which is odd because in 1992 - 1994 he rode for Castorama, 1995 - 1996 for Banesto , and in 1997 for FdJ.
so how could he state that a doping programme exsisted before he joined a team or indeed on a team that he had never ridden for?
thanks

 

[Dr. Maserati]

no doubt - but Davy also testified against Castorama, Telekom and La Francaise des Jeux teams. which is odd because in 1992 - 1994 he rode for Castorama, 1995 - 1996 for Banesto , and in 1997 for FdJ.
so how could he state that a doping programme exsisted before he joined a team or indeed on a team that he had never ridden for?
thanks

Davy testified in 2000.

 

[dbrmuz]

I still like watching Indurain on la plagne..the way he makes Tonkov sit up, brutal pace. Anyway, I am done on this thread

...without once backing up your opening statement (it's YOUR thread!) with any actual proof.Nice job.

 

[Exroadman24902]

...without once backing up your opening statement (it's YOUR thread!) with any actual proof.Nice job.

Not you again..go search out the footage yourself. You prove it wasn't the case. I know what I saw. Were you around watching the Indurain years?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Not you again..go search out the footage yourself. You prove it wasn't the case. I know what I saw. Were you around watching the Indurain years?

What footage?

 

[pmcg76]

Not you again..go search out the footage yourself. You prove it wasn't the case. I know what I saw. Were you around watching the Indurain years?

I remember all the Indurain Tour's as I was just getting into cycling at the time and was devouring everything cycling related.

I definitely remember Banesto riding on the front and Bernard in particular riding on the front in the mountains on a few occasion's. However I dont remember any Postal style drilling it on the front every mountain stage until only Indurain was left with one or two other riders.

If Banesto had a train, it was of the model type whilst Postal was the real thing.

I think I still have the Cycling Weekly reports from most of Indurain's victories so will check them out for the Banesto train.