The Banesto Train in the mountains

[Bag_O_Wallet]

What footage?

Sestriere 1992 Chiappucci vs the Banesto Train. Volumes I and II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orMnutFbptQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqoH6R-99N0&NR=1

Mind you, Chiappucci chewed them up and spat them out.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sestriere 1992 Chiappucci vs the Banesto Train. Volumes I and II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orMnutFbptQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqoH6R-99N0&NR=1

Mind you, Chiappucci chewed them up and spat them out.

No train in either of those clips.

On the first Col there are just 2 Banesto riders on the front and in the valley that becomes 3.
They are nowhere in sight on the final climb.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

No train in either of those clips.

On the first Col there are just 2 Banesto riders on the front and in the valley that becomes 3.
They are nowhere in sight on the final climb.

Exactly.... and if ever there was a day for the mighty Banesto Armada, this would be it.

 

[pmcg76]

This is actually a better clip of the Banesto train

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ5pEm3ZEn4&feature=related

One Banesto rider dropping off right at the foot of a climb(Alpe d'huez?) and Jeff Bernard the one remaining Banesto with a large portion of the peloton still intact.

The next clip we see is Chiappucci attacking breaking the group.

 

[VeloCity]

They picked well, Bruyneel did. Anyway, continue on with the get Lance for doping but ignore Indurain..

How many times do I have to say that I believe Indurain was doping? OK, last time, let's make sure you're clear on this:

I believe that Miguel Indurain, formerly of the Banesto team, winner of 5 Tours de France and 2 Giro d'Italia's, husband to Marisa, father of three, was probably doping.

None of which changes the fact that there was no real Banesto mountain train.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Isola 2000 - 1993.

Indurain isolated over the second last climb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfplDTiIfFA

 

[dbrmuz]

Not you again..go search out the footage yourself. You prove it wasn't the case. I know what I saw. Were you around watching the Indurain years?

If the footage is so abundant why on earth can't you point us in the right direction to find it? Surely you started this thread to educate those of us more ignorant than yourself? Insulting those who disagree with you & telling us to find it ourselves,when we've repeatedly told you we can't,isn't particularly helpful.

Then going off & saying you're done here instead of posting the (non-existent) footage just makes the entire thread absolutely pointless.

Back up your claims.

 

[Indurain]

In 1995, Indurain was very worried about the ONCE team attacking him. His team manager had to keep reassuring him not to panic, etc. His team was less than capable at sticking with Indurain or chasing down other breakaways. But then Indurain attacks them solo with only the Hog able to stay on his back wheel. Rode the rest of the Tour riders off his back wheel.

I remember him chasing Zulle up the mountain with all the climbers on his back wheel. One by one he demolished them, including Pantani. Zulle was overall as strong as Indurain that tour, so I guess that says something about the rest of the competition at the time. But his team were hopeless. Perhaps Indurain cost too much and they couldn't afford good riders to back him up.

Remember Beloki though how he may even had beaten Armstrong that year and then crashes, breaking his hip. He never returned to his former self. Not even close. Ended up the most low of domestiques. I guess he did some sole searching while recovering and gave up the dope.

 

[dancing on pedals]

Davy testified in 2000.

yeah sorry i was thinking about a couple of interviews he had done earlier with the French Press/cycling magazines.
In "A tempered passion" Indurains biography by Javier Sanchez he does allude to the "half shut doorways in hotels where the sick cyclists are treated by their doctors" - (not a direct quote just from memory) and judging by the competant but certainly not dominant style of riding by the Banesto boys as against US Postal I came to the conlusion that if the Banesto boys were running a policy it was one of desperation to get the lads on the road rather than a true doping policy - they may have been running very close to the line - but in no way was a Festina type arrangement in place.
thanks

 

[Exroadman24902]

If the footage is so abundant why on earth can't you point us in the right direction to find it? Surely you started this thread to educate those of us more ignorant than yourself? Insulting those who disagree with you & telling us to find it ourselves,when we've repeatedly told you we can't,isn't particularly helpful.

Then going off & saying you're done here instead of posting the (non-existent) footage just makes the entire thread absolutely pointless.

Back up your claims.

Back up your claims more like. Did you view the Indurain tours? Were you following cycling at that time. I was and saw a dominant Indurain sit behind his team, then smash everyone on the first hard strategic stage (Hautacam, la Plagne, Luxembourg TT). Armstrong adopted this tactic. Armstrong also cheated with a team wide doping regimen it would appear, but you only want one of the two brought to justice whereas I am not a fickle anti-doper. Punish them both by removing their 7 wins each or leave them both alone!

 

[Exroadman24902]

Isola 2000 - 1993.

Indurain isolated over the second last climb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfplDTiIfFA

Delgado was up in front for most of the climb and passed by Indurain near top. He would have waited had Indurain asked

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Back up your claims more like. Did you view the Indurain tours? Were you following cycling at that time. I was and saw a dominant Indurain sit behind his team, then smash everyone on the first hard strategic stage (Hautacam, la Plagne, Luxembourg TT). Armstrong adopted this tactic. Armstrong also cheated with a team wide doping regimen it would appear, but you only want one of the two brought to justice whereas I am not a fickle anti-doper. Punish them both by removing their 7 wins each or leave them both alone!

Hautacam - 1994.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0en8OLXG8M

Indurain got attacked left, right, and center - and had to take control on his own. In doing so, the Extraterrestrial kicked the crap out of everyone. But, again, it's a far cry from the blue train.

 

[Exroadman24902]

Hautacam - 1994.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0en8OLXG8M

Indurain got attacked left, right, and center - and had to take control on his own. In doing so, the Extraterrestrial kicked the crap out of everyone. But, again, it's a far cry from the blue train.

rubbish. He smashed Rominger that day-DAY 1 really of the GC battle 1994. A boring TDF created by Armstrong like tactics

Armstrong had team mates as strong as Rominger too. Heras? That's why you would see Heras leading him sometimes. LA also did battle alone on summit finishes.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Back up your claims more like. Did you view the Indurain tours? Were you following cycling at that time. I was and saw a dominant Indurain sit behind his team, then smash everyone on the first hard strategic stage (Hautacam, la Plagne, Luxembourg TT). Armstrong adopted this tactic. Armstrong also cheated with a team wide doping regimen it would appear, but you only want one of the two brought to justice whereas I am not a fickle anti-doper. Punish them both by removing their 7 wins each or leave them both alone!

I have to ask - is this a not too subtle shift in position from your OP where you claim Banesto had a 'train' in the mountains.

As for punishing them both - unfortunately there is no investigation currently ongoing in to Indurain, and the SOL has expired - so you're just going to have to make do with Armstrong having some Tour removed.

 

[Exroadman24902]

I have to ask - is this a not too subtle shift in position from your OP where you claim Banesto had a 'train' in the mountains.

As for punishing them both - unfortunately there is no investigation currently ongoing in to Indurain, and the SOL has expired - so you're just going to have to make do with Armstrong having some Tour removed.

my point is LA adopted Indurain like tactics in the race, blood doped like Indurain, and had his team buy, employ, retain potential GC threats to Indurain. As for make do with only one. I think they are equal both deserve their wins respected on here, which is only see given for Indurain.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

my point is LA adopted Indurain like tactics in the race, blood doped like Indurain, and had his team buy, employ, retain potential GC threats to Indurain. As for make do with only one. I think they are equal both deserve their wins respected on here, which is only see given for Indurain.

So what happened to the Banesto Mountain train then?

I think neither deserve their wins - as its too late for Big Mig we will have to be just content ourselves with Armstrong.

 

[VeloCity]

my point is LA adopted Indurain like tactics in the race, blood doped like Indurain, and had his team buy, employ, retain potential GC threats to Indurain. As for make do with only one. I think they are equal both deserve their wins respected on here, which is only see given for Indurain.

The title of this thread - that you started - is "The Banesto train in the mountains". I think that's what one might call moving the goalposts.

And it's never been a question of whether either "deserved" their wins - what are you going to do, give them to Bugno or Chiappucci, or Basso and Ullrich? - it's a question of whether or not they will get caught for doping. In which case it's probably much too late for Indurain, but it's not for Armstrong. You can argue the unfairness of that until you're blue in the face, it's not going to change anything.

 

[dbrmuz]

Back up your claims more like. Did you view the Indurain tours? Were you following cycling at that time. I was and saw a dominant Indurain sit behind his team, then smash everyone on the first hard strategic stage (Hautacam, la Plagne, Luxembourg TT). Armstrong adopted this tactic. Armstrong also cheated with a team wide doping regimen it would appear, but you only want one of the two brought to justice whereas I am not a fickle anti-doper. Punish them both by removing their 7 wins each or leave them both alone!

The only claim I'm making is that I cannot find any evidence that proves your claim about the Banesto "train".A simple You Tube search,as virtually everyone else posting in this thread has done,will find no evidence of your claim.

What is your problem? You made the bold statement that Banesto controlled the mountains for Indurain and that Postal simply copied that.Why can you not prove that? If I'm so wrong,prove me right,instead of carrying on berating people.Who do you think you are-Armstrong?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

rubbish. He smashed Rominger that day-DAY 1 really of the GC battle 1994. A boring TDF created by Armstrong like tactics.

Some research will show that Rominger heavily crashed, twice in the 1994 Tour, either his back or neck was out of whack, effectively removing him from serious contention. He dropped out after about stage 12 or so.

While one can find days where Banesto formed somewhat of a train on a few climbs, to claim it's the same as what the USPS train did is unrealistic.

Anyone want to start a thread on the Saeco train in mountains of the Giro?

 

[hrotha]

I like how he's constantly all "did you watch it back then?!! I did!!!", as if everyone else here wasn't even born in 1991-1995.

 

[dbrmuz]

I like how he's constantly all "did you watch it back then?!! I did!!!", as if everyone else here wasn't even born in 1991-1995.

Funnier still how that's his sole argument/proof.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think neither deserve their wins - as its too late for Big Mig we will have to be just content ourselves with Armstrong.

I think that's speculating a bit much. One could try to guess and re-write a fantasy history with no EPO or blood doping. One where Mottet or LeMond win the 1991 Tour, maybe LeMond comes back in 1992, and Gilles DeLion becomes the rider everyone said he would and wins a Tour or two, and what the heck, Bassons wins the 1999 Tour as well. But there's no doubt Indurain was a huge talent and physical freak, even in a sport with freaks. He also benefited from the fact many of those Tours had very long ITT's and long TTT's, sometimes approaching 300km total. This was an area where he simply was better than anyone else. I'm pretty comfortable with him keeping his jerseys. The only one I suppose that bothers me is 1991. But I'm perhaps equally bothered by 1996 as well. Though both were dramatic years.

In a clean fantasy world, Armstrong on the other hand...

 

[ultimobici]

Reading through this thread & looking back over the Merckx, Hinault, Indurain & Armstrong eras it is clear that the USPS "train" was merely an evolution of the previous methods. Merckx, Hinault & Indurain had one or two close lieutenants who would stay with them until the finale, then they would take over and fend for themselves or attack. Banesto, Molteni & Renault employed very similar methods to each other but none had anything that resembled a mountain train. That was something that USPS had as their trademark.

 

[Indurain]

He lost a lot of weight in 1990 and his results showed accordingly. I am assuming this was pre EPO. So who is to say if all was fair and square he still wouldn't have won.

 

[Exroadman24902]

The only claim I'm making is that I cannot find any evidence that proves your claim about the Banesto "train".A simple You Tube search,as virtually everyone else posting in this thread has done,will find no evidence of your claim.

What is your problem? You made the bold statement that Banesto controlled the mountains for Indurain and that Postal simply copied that.Why can you not prove that? If I'm so wrong,prove me right,instead of carrying on berating people.Who do you think you are-Armstrong?

some samples of the strong teams Indurain had.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...e-video-archive-the-indurain-years-91-95.html

As an aside, I reckon Miguel would have beaten Lance in 1999, 2003..