The best climbers in the world?

[Flamin]

I dont know that he cant, rather that he hasnt.

Maybe he could destroy everyone in LBL in worlds in FW. But he hasnt. Hes tried a few times and he hasnt. Valverde has. Thats the difference. THis isnt about potential but reality.

In reality Valverde has those hundreds of top 10's in every type of race imaginable, win after win after win in every type of race imaginable. Contador doesnt. Maybe he could but he doesnt hence hse is not as good an All rounder imo.

Spot on... Shouldawouldacoulda, but Piti actually does it.

 

[El Pistolero]

I dont know that he cant, rather that he hasnt.

Maybe he could destroy everyone in LBL in worlds in FW. But he hasnt. Hes tried a few times and he hasnt. Valverde has. Thats the difference. THis isnt about potential but reality.

In reality Valverde has those hundreds of top 10's in every type of race imaginable, win after win after win in every type of race imaginable. Contador doesnt. Maybe he could but he doesnt hence hse is not as good an All rounder imo.

Yes, reality. Valverde is never going to drop Contador on the Saint Nicholas or the Roche aux Faucons climb. Yeah, his chances of winning LBL are greater than Contador because of his finishing kick in the end. Like I said, it's all he has on Contador and it doesn't make him a better allrounder. Seeing as Contador blows him away in the climbs and time trials. While Valverde can only blow him away in the sprints.

When both on their peak form Contador can drop Valverde on hills like roche aux faucons or Saint Nicholos quite easily. Luckily for Valverde he can count on his sprint. But like I said, it's all he has on Contador. Contador is far better at everything else. Valverde would struggle to come in the top 10 time trial specialists while Contador is one of the best there is. Flat, hilly, long, short and mountain time trials, he's good at all of them. And there's nothing closer to the truth than a time trial.

I just can't see how Valverde is a better allrounder when he gets beaten 9 out of 10 times he faces Contador in a race.

You really think it's strange Contador doesn't enter LBL when he's planning to do the Giro/Tour double this year? Come'on now...

 

[Ryaguas]

he was just naming people better then martin. no particular order. no1 is that silly

Well We have ppl like flicker, polish, wonderlance, etc Here at the forum...

dude they're not in order Alberto owns them all

Ye... sorry I just panicked for a moment!

 

[icefire]

Even Andy Schleck can focus on LBL when hes doing the Tour. 1 win 1 podium. Whats Contadors record there? Whats Contadors record in the Worlds. Where did he finish in olympic rr? (shcleck finished 5th)

Yep, what an all rounder

3 out of the 5 members of the Spanish team at the 2008 Olympics had a stronger sprint than Contador. None of them was as good at ITT as him. He was a domestique in the RR. He did what was asked to do and abandoned to rest for the ITT just because he's no Cancellara.

He did LBL last year and was also a domestique to the eventual winner. He finished 9th in the same time than Schleck, just 3 secs after the one who does not appear on the record book of that race.

He lacks the punch for the sprint and I thank him for that. I'd be bored if he got into sprints well, because at least Valverde cracks from time to time in the big mountains and sucks at any ITT over 40km.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

problem with Contador in the classics that he has pollen allergie when it's hot and humid in fleche/lbl

he needs a rainy edition like in 2008 FW

 

[Galic Ho]

So, did you expect Gadret and Rujano to finish higher up than Menchov? Rujano even starting with a 4,5 minute deficit going into the mountains up to Menchov???

What a laughable argument then. Gesink eats guys like Gadret for lunch for crying out loud

As I said, you have to put it into it's proper context. Did you see my original list? Gadret got into a breakaway. Rujano capitalised early and proved more than once, he's in the top three or four climbers at the Giro. Menchov has been slow building up but he's going well. Was Menchov allowed into a break? Allowed to bridge everyone, let alone have the ability to do it like Rujano and Anton did? Nope. So why would I assume the guy below him last year at Rabo could? I wouldn't. He'd race it in a similar fashion to Dennis, putting him, IMO, right near Dennis.

Oh and I had Menchov coming third on this parcour. He's been a bit off of what I expected. People only get time if they are ALLOWED. Why would Gesink be allowed to get time? That is why positions outside 3rd are a bit uncouth and unexpected. If Gesink were riding and hadn't goofed and gone 100%, he'd be in 4th at best. No higher. Either way, he isn't racing, we'll see if he's improved at the Tour. Same with Jurgen. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Galic Ho]

stupid argument. This thread isn't who the best GC rider is, or who has the best palmares. Gesink failing at the vuelta 09; isn't the point, the point is until the final mountain stage, where he did indeed have a hole in his knee was climbing awesome. Outdoing guys like mosquera, evans and samu at times. The mountains where he was good, he was very good, so your point is mute. This in a more difficult field then last year I might add, where nibali with 2 years on gesink won. I am pretty sure if a fresh Gesink went to the vuelta could have beaten nibali, but a whatif situation does us nothing.

Nobody gets a hard-on worse than a Rabo fanboy, which isn't a bad thing, but leads to BIG expectations that often don't materialise. Apart from sticking with the group in 09, not making any major moves and one stage in the Dauphine, I just don't get it. He's average, nothing more. Potential, but no more than Kreuziger. Mosquera? Did he beat Valverde? Has he stayed upright after and won a stage in a GT on a notable climbing stage? Has be beaten the big guns. Anton has. Rujano has. I've said all along, put it into context, no what-if's. You suggested that what-if's are wrong and then contradict yourself asking for it to be excused when others bring it up after using one yourself.

One cannot have their cake and eat it. Believable what if's are never past tense. That's just banter and semantics. Opinion, nothing more. This list is a what-if, but a hypothetical one based on form and proven records, not a guy sticking with some big names and then getting hurt. You take a guys form and ability on when he did race and what he's shown he can do. Thus you can extrapolate on a new race, whether he's a chance. Either he's got the records to justify it or he hasn't. The only people on this forum I've seen talking Gesink up are the Dutch and Rabo fans. That's it. Those partial to both those groups. He is good, but I don't look at a race and naturally think "Damn, Gesink will tear them apart today, I better go place a bet" purely because I've seen him do it before. I have no reason to believe it will happen, but none the less it could happen. Catch my drift? When he does, I'll have it resting in the back of my mind for future stages I'm viewing, that he might rip them apart.

When I first heard people talk about him as a stellar climber I thought as a pure climber. He's a diesel. Not bad, but nothing special.

 

[roundabout]

I suppose there's Contador and after him comes the July Schleck.

As for the rest - it's cycling, not shopping to be making a list.

 

[Parrulo]

When I first heard people talk about him as a stellar climber I thought as a pure climber. He's a diesel. Not bad, but nothing special.

so you are saying that every1 that isn't an explosive climber is nothing special? as explosive as a guy like rodriguez is he would be dropped on every single MTF by a guy like basso who is a pure diesel. i tbh like diesels a lot. they have a hard time gaining time on the mountains the way races are raced this days but they are still great.

btw did you saw stage 15 where nibali kept struggling and struggling and struggling and at one point he even looked like being dropped by rodriguez on the last climb only to eventually pass him as rodriguez blew up and could put up a decent pace anymore?

tbh i wish there were more high level diesels this days and more stages that actually suit them like the zoncolan

p.s. i hope gesink and nibali become great diesels (sorry for putting gesink on the same basket as nibali D_T) tho gesink also as a decent kick

 

[Galic Ho]

Even Andy Schleck can focus on LBL when hes doing the Tour. 1 win 1 podium. Whats Contadors record there? Whats Contadors record in the Worlds. Where did he finish in olympic rr? (shcleck finished 5th)

Yep, what an all rounder

Dude, wrong nation to ask the Olympic or WC question on. Worst in fact.

Really, AC gets the nod ahead of Samu, Valverde and Rodriguez on parcours that he's arguably no better than them on? Maybe, but hasn't happened yet and no reason to conclude AC would even want to. I'd bet he'd say they had better chances than he does, in the event, they all road for Spain in the same event.

 

[Galic Ho]

so you are saying that every1 that isn't an explosive climber is nothing special? as explosive as a guy like rodriguez is he would be dropped on every single MTF by a guy like basso who is a pure diesel. i tbh like diesels a lot. they have a hard time gaining time on the mountains the way races are raced this days but they are still great.

btw did you saw stage 15 where nibali kept struggling and struggling and struggling and at one point he even looked like being dropped by rodriguez on the last climb only to eventually pass him as rodriguez blew up and could put up a decent pace anymore?

tbh i wish there were more high level diesels this days and more stages that actually suit them like the zoncolan

p.s. i hope gesink and nibali become great diesels (sorry for putting gesink on the same basket as nibali D_T) tho gesink also as a decent kick

Hell no dude. Go back to the first page if you want to see my full explanation of various riding styles. Your readind a little bit too much into what I'm saying. My first post in this thread I explained how I look at things. A diesel can beat a pure explosive climber, not only on a stage, but on GC as well. Happened many times. It's about context, which I also touch on near the bottom of that post.

I'm just saying, Gesink for me is a very big talent, but for injury reasons and leadership/domestique duties, I haven't seen him take the mantle and really stamp it out on a big climb. One of the stages in the 2009 Dauphine, Valverde made a move and Gesink lead frogged Evans and Contador. He tried to bridge and didn't do it. I saw some promise there, but besided the 2009 Vuelta (where he didn't really impress me, I thought he just held on) I have nothing to base ranking him higher than guys winnning massive climbs at this years Giro, like Rujano or Anton. I look at the lists people have been dropping and most others haven't rated Gesink higher either. It's just the fans of his.

It's just like the argument I read a few pages back about ALL ROUND riders. Record wise, Valverde has it. Sure AC will beat him on certain parcours, but Valverde has won on everything. Put in the real world context, it's not about potential, it's about who has the runs on the board, about moving it away from hypotheticals whilst acknowleding that some assumptions must be made simply because everyone rider different events at different times at varying intensities and fitness levels. It's the variables that make these lists hard to compute and accurately say with certainty who ranks where. I actually found those debates to be quite funny about riders all round value. For me, best rider in the peloton, the most rounded rider is Valvderde (when he gets back of course), with AC a close second. Evans in third place, then a guy like Spartacus. The CQRanking system has merit, but only when you know the ins and outs of how it rewards points.

As for diesels slugging it out. It's impressive stuff when it happens. Only a handful of guys have big kicks. I will agree with Dekker Tiffosi. Rodriguez is over rated. I thought last year he was onto something magnificent. Reall what I need to do is remember the 2009 worlds. If Valverde or Samu had of gone up ahead instead of Rodriguez, Evans probably wouldn't have won. That guy bleeds time all over the place. Plus his chrono blows. Oh and for the record, I always thought Kreuziger was better than Nibali. Maturing as a rider, Nibali has that award won, proving my initial beliefs wrong. Gesink could well do the same, he is only 24.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I guess you didn't watch the Vuelta 2009 then, he didn't just hold on.

He was the biggest challenger of Valverde up to the final mountain stage where he lost 4 minutes due to the whole in his knee.

He attacked and dropped the others on the Aitana on the Velefique and on the Pandera Yes, you're right, he just held on.

Gosh, fail. You're not to be taken seriously if you say that

 

[Galic Ho]

problem with Contador in the classics that he has pollen allergie when it's hot and humid in fleche/lbl

he needs a rainy edition like in 2008 FW

I get the same crap in Spring. Rain makes it worse. Pollen, at least in Australia, is released when it rains. If it's hot and even humid, I'm generally alright. If it rains, I sneeze quite a bit at times. Annoying as all hell.

 

[Galic Ho]

I guess you didn't watch the Vuelta 2009 then, he didn't just hold on.

He was the biggest challenger of Valverde up to the final mountain stage where he lost 4 minutes due to the whole in his knee.

He attacked and dropped the others on the Aitana on the Velefique and on the Pandera Yes, you're right, he just held on.

Gosh, fail. You're not to be taken seriously if you say that

I watched quite a bit in the last 10 days. As I said earlier, ask yourself why people are ALLOWED to get away. Evans and Samu were the biggest threats that Giro. I'll give you this much, Gesink was arguably better than Basso. Difference is Ivan came back in 2010 and did something of huge note in the mountains. Evans has since, Samu too and even Valverde before he was banned. Gesink...not quite the way the others did. That would be why he was ALLOWED to get away and why I think he's good, but with a lot of competition, he's nothing special, that would be AC and Schleck. If Gesink was seriously in with a shot of winning, Caisse would have been all over him on any move like a fat kid on a donut. I've never once said he isn't good, just disputing the context of his noted "Beasting it in the hills efforts."

 

[gilbertador]

Order of climbers in last 4 gts
Giro 2010
Basso, Scarponi, Nibali, Evans, Vino
Tour 2010
conador, shleck, sanchez, menchov, van den Broeck, Gesink, J rod
Vuelta 2010
Anto, Nibali, Rodriguez
Giro 2011
Contador, Rujano, Scarponi, nibali, Anton, Gadret, Menchov, Kreuzinger, Rodriguez

Contador for me is clearly 1st, Andy is clearly 2nd, in third on form of the 2010 giro is super ivan, on this Giro i would genuinly pick Rujano 4th....Grossglockner and Etna he was awesome and not to shabby on other hills either, sanchez on form is close to rujano and 5th, behind this i see Scarponi Anton Menchov and Nibali hard to seperate id say scarponi next then nibali then anton then menchov Anton is 3rd when he gains consistency next is Evans, VDBroeck, Rodriguez, Gessink

THEREFORE

Contador
A Shleck
Basso
Rujano
S Sanchez
Scarponi
Nibali
Anton
Menchov
Evans
VDB2
Rodriguez
Evans
Kreuzinger

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Rodriguez is over rated. I thought last year he was onto something magnificent. Reall what I need to do is remember the 2009 worlds. If Valverde or Samu had of gone up ahead instead of Rodriguez, Evans probably wouldn't have won. That guy bleeds time all over the place. Plus his chrono blows.

While you do Rodríguez no disservice in saying his chrono blows, because it does, I think you are a little harsh on his 2009 Worlds. Remember that Rodríguez had been Spain's representative in the 'break of the day', so had been off the front for hours and done more work than anybody else in the front group at that point. He attacked a couple of times to be the 'carrot' for the other teams to chase down, but was surprisingly strong, and so was Cancellara, meaning the stronger Spanish and Italian riders shadowed him and gave Evans the chance to slip away, if not unnoticed then at least without being given the instant reaction that a rider of his quality should have forced if the others were thinking straight. A fresher J-Rod may not have caught Evans - but Evans certainly wouldn't have beaten him and Kolobnev by a minute.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I watched quite a bit in the last 10 days. As I said earlier, ask yourself why people are ALLOWED to get away. Evans and Samu were the biggest threats that Giro. I'll give you this much, Gesink was arguably better than Basso. Difference is Ivan came back in 2010 and did something of huge note in the mountains. Evans has since, Samu too and even Valverde before he was banned. Gesink...not quite the way the others did. That would be why he was ALLOWED to get away and why I think he's good, but with a lot of competition, he's nothing special, that would be AC and Schleck. If Gesink was seriously in with a shot of winning, Caisse would have been all over him on any move like a fat kid on a donut. I've never once said he isn't good, just disputing the context of his noted "Beasting it in the hills efforts."

Gesink was allowed to go??? He was 2nd in the GC for crying out loud At 30 seconds of Valverde at the point he was attacking
Yeah, I'm sure they allowed him to go.

Are you serious??? Haha

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

To further prove my point.

GC before 1st real mountain stage finish, Vuelta 09

6 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:01:12
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:01:14
9 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:20
17 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 1:53
19 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:01:57

At this point, Gesink is only 45 seconds behind the best standing GC rider. Cadel Evans. No way you are 'allowed' to ride away then. Certainly because they knew, and all named, Gesink as direct opponent for the overall victory.

1st MTF - Alto de Aitana

First GC rider:
Gesink +36s
then Evans, Valverde and Sanchez at +44s and Basso at +50

GC afterwards

1 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 31:05:02
2 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:00:02
3 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:00:08
4 Tom Danielson (USA) Garmin-Slipstream 0:00:13
5 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:29

At this point Gesink already made up almost half of the distance he had on Evans before the 1st mountain stage. If they weren't taking him seriously before they surely would have by now. That's if, and only if, we take your stance seriously Galic Ho, that he was 'allowed' to take time.

2nd mountain stage, Xorret de Cati

Gesink finishes with Valverde, Evans and Basso.
Samuel Sanchez loses over a minute to these 4 and drops away. (so does Danielson btw)

GC at this point:
1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 36:26:40
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:00:07
3 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:36
4 Tom Danielson (USA) Garmin-Slipstream 0:00:51
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:00:53
6 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:03

So after the time trial in Valencia and 2 mountain stages, Gesink is already on the virtual podium. The rest after the top 6 is already at more than 2 minutes. It would be quite idiotic to 'give' Gesink time at that point.

Then comes Stage 12, the next MTF

3 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:06
4 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia

6 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0.16
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto
8 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas
10 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi

Hey look. Gesink is again the best of the GC contendors. Made up another 10 seconds plus bonis.

The GC at this point

1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 51:12:38
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:00:07
3 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:18
4 Tom Danielson (USA) Garmin-Slipstream 0:00:51
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:00:53
6 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:03

Let's recap, so far we had 3 mountain stages, where Gesink gained time on 2 of them. From the 45 seconds deficit he had on Evans after the time trial, only 9 remain after 2 mountain top finishes and 1 other mountain stage with a normal finish...In a field much stronger than the Vuelta that Nibali wins. But I'm sure that all says nothing. So let's continue shall we?

Stage 13 Sierra Nevada

2 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia 0:00:52
3 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:01:16
4 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:01:17
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas
6 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:37
7 Joaquím Rodríguez (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:02:09
8 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:02:24

The famous stage where Evans popped, and where Mosquera surfaced.
GC after this?

1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 56:23:08
2 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:27
3 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:01:02
4 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:32
5 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:01:33
6 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia 0:02:06

At this point Gesink is certainly the most dangerous to Valverde, well actually he already was since he was the only one actually gaining time on all previous MTF's, bar Mosquera, but Mosquera is already 2 minutes behind, so he was REALLY no danger, unlike Gesink who was always never more behind than 30 seconds to Valverde and 45 to Evans...

So, what were you talking about Gallic Ho, really? Every stage so far, Gesink was either the best, or with the best of the GC riders, and logically therefore 2nd in the GC.

On to the pandera

3 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:03:08
4 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia 0:03:10
5 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:03:22
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:03:26
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:03:40

9 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:03:48

Gesink tried to crack Valverde on the steeper slopes, Mosquera and Sanchez were better that day. Valverde only ever outsprinted him on the flat on the top. Gesink did crack Evans (again) and Basso.
However even Sanchez only wins 18 seconds. So he was hardly much better, and lost more to Gesink in the previous stages, so that Vuelta, he wasn't the better climber was he?

GC:
1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 60:30:53
2 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:31
3 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:10
4 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:01:28
5 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:01:51
6 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia 0:01:54

That's all mountain stages bar the last one done. The last one was an easy one with the Navacerrada. About 10/15 riders in the same time, bar Gesink because of his giant whole in his knee.
Ofcourse his final ITT performance isn't to be taken seriously for the same reason.

The first and 2nd ITT where very comparitve in length and hardness though. Had he been fit, and lose the same amount of time as in the 1st ITT, he would maybe lose 2nd place to Sanchez, and hold on to podium just in front of Evans.

Take the pure climbing time and ...guess what Gallic Ho? Guess who completed all mountain stages added together the fastest?


But yeah, I'm sure they all allowed him that time because they all knew Mosquera would ride into a hole into the ground and Gesink would ride behind him and get a nasty injury. So they all saw that coming.
They must have strong future telling senses in the peloton!

 

[Parrulo]

D_T

we should wait for the tour to continue our gesink talk imo as we will have much better set of info.

 

[Galic Ho]

D_T

we should wait for the tour to continue our gesink talk imo as we will have much better set of info.

Dito. I'm guessing I better not bring up the WC then! Another Spanish Armada victory, cough, cough, dive fest.

I'm sorry Dekker Tifosi. I forgot the Dutch get worked up on some issues. My aplogies. As Parrulo said, lets wait for the Tour and then reasses Gesinks climbing abilities.

Now I have to go back and decipher the wall of results. Cheers.

Tommy D. Really dude. Really, I mean come on. He's part Inuit on a protein diet because he loses weight mid GC as JV so eloquently put it. Did you have to mention him! Tommy D. So funny. I was myself thinking earlier that he hasn't yet been mentioned on this greatest climbers list. Another name to consider for the list. At least he's more credible than Wigans.

As for the times. We've done this at least two times on old threads. Your points are good, but as I said before, has Gesink done this well since? Nope. So why didn't he podium...the convenient I'm injured. Just like the convenient line I heard from Aussies that had Evans not had his tyre incident, he'd have won. Should have, could have, would have BUT didn't. Always a massive WHAT IF. It was a one off. That's it. Now we'll never know and sadly, he hasn't shown such promise since in a GT. What we do know is that Gesink didn't stay upright. Valverde raced this sole GT against his normal style. That Evans had just raced the TdF with major team issues, Samu cracked and yet came back and Basso was underdone from a two year absence. What we don't know is was Gesink pacing himself. Would he really have held up? I cannot say he would have, because he didn't and yes he was injured, but that brings us back to hypotheticals. Assuming yes, why haven't we seen him do it since. As I said, the four other riders all have in GT's. It's about context dude and linking the dots together. The guys good, no doubt, but I'm not adding him to my list of guys I expect to set the world alight. Good for you for believing in him, but you are both Dutch are you not?

 

[Galic Ho]

While you do Rodríguez no disservice in saying his chrono blows, because it does, I think you are a little harsh on his 2009 Worlds. Remember that Rodríguez had been Spain's representative in the 'break of the day', so had been off the front for hours and done more work than anybody else in the front group at that point. He attacked a couple of times to be the 'carrot' for the other teams to chase down, but was surprisingly strong, and so was Cancellara, meaning the stronger Spanish and Italian riders shadowed him and gave Evans the chance to slip away, if not unnoticed then at least without being given the instant reaction that a rider of his quality should have forced if the others were thinking straight. A fresher J-Rod may not have caught Evans - but Evans certainly wouldn't have beaten him and Kolobnev by a minute.

Which was what I was hinting at. Spain used Valverde and Samu to mark Cancellara. I didn't think it was bright, more or less just a formality of positioning on the road. Kolobnev went after Spartacus did a pull down big hill, Rodriguez was shadowing him and then Evans went with them. At the time I thought it was bizarre. I had the impression everyone thought Cancellara would pull him back. Guess his lack of a response was a big F&%K You to the guys marking him. Nobody marked Cadel, they marked Spartacus. Of course both Spartacus and Gilbert made a move, but it was too late. I can't fault Cancellar for not chasing Evans, but I can fault Rodriguez team mates. Poor Rodriguez really didn't have enought juice for the reasons you list. That WC was Spains to win. They had 3 guys there, two who podiumed at the Vuelta, ahead of Evans, thus they had the form.

Actually I expected a lot from Rodriguez after that WC. He did well OVERALL last year, however I have to place him in the over rated category. Lots of people, myself included, thought he'd top 5 in many things. Apart from some nice Ardennes placings and the odd Tour/stage win, he's been good but has too many off days where he looses big time. I think he should hunt for stage wins, get a climbing jersey and then if he gets enough time, focus on GC. He's just not consistent enough climbing day in day out, for me to see him making any GC top 5 without some major corrections riding.

 

[Andre.J]

1. Contador
2. Andy
3. Sanchez
4. Menchov
5. VDB
6. Valverde
7. Gesink
8. Basso
9. Evans
10.Nibali

This is based on climbing strength and recuperation, so basically this list is for all around best climbers.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

1. Contador
2. Andy
3. Sanchez
4. Menchov
5. VDB
6. Valverde
7. Gesink
8. Basso
9. Evans
10.Nibali

This is based on climbing strength and recuperation, so basically this list is for all around best climbers.

considering your criteria this seems odd. unless this criteria is for tour 10' only

VdB doesn't belong in a top 10. This I say confidently. Following riders and climbing well in one tour (aware he did a ok giro once) in your career and dropping like a stone for the rest of the season hardly makes him an "all round best climber"

---
@garlic ho, your posts just indicate to me you didn't watch the vuelta.
For example Gesink rode away from valverde on multiple occasions from 08 and 09 vuelta. Anyway I can't be bothered arguing about Gesink anymore, IMO he has shown massive potential and strength in many races.
you then say gesink was allowed to get away, while being less then a minute behind. and don't mention that rujano on both attempts was minutes behind. Again, your posts reak of contradiction.

 

[El Pistolero]

To further prove my point.

GC before 1st real mountain stage finish, Vuelta 09

6 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:01:12
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:01:14
9 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:20
17 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 1:53
19 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:01:57

At this point, Gesink is only 45 seconds behind the best standing GC rider. Cadel Evans. No way you are 'allowed' to ride away then. Certainly because they knew, and all named, Gesink as direct opponent for the overall victory.

1st MTF - Alto de Aitana

First GC rider:
Gesink +36s
then Evans, Valverde and Sanchez at +44s and Basso at +50

GC afterwards

1 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 31:05:02
2 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:00:02
3 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:00:08
4 Tom Danielson (USA) Garmin-Slipstream 0:00:13
5 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:29

At this point Gesink already made up almost half of the distance he had on Evans before the 1st mountain stage. If they weren't taking him seriously before they surely would have by now. That's if, and only if, we take your stance seriously Galic Ho, that he was 'allowed' to take time.

2nd mountain stage, Xorret de Cati

Gesink finishes with Valverde, Evans and Basso.
Samuel Sanchez loses over a minute to these 4 and drops away. (so does Danielson btw)

GC at this point:
1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 36:26:40
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:00:07
3 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:36
4 Tom Danielson (USA) Garmin-Slipstream 0:00:51
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:00:53
6 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:03

So after the time trial in Valencia and 2 mountain stages, Gesink is already on the virtual podium. The rest after the top 6 is already at more than 2 minutes. It would be quite idiotic to 'give' Gesink time at that point.

Then comes Stage 12, the next MTF

3 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:06
4 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia

6 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0.16
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto
8 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas
10 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi

Hey look. Gesink is again the best of the GC contendors. Made up another 10 seconds plus bonis.

The GC at this point

1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 51:12:38
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:00:07
3 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:18
4 Tom Danielson (USA) Garmin-Slipstream 0:00:51
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:00:53
6 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:03

Let's recap, so far we had 3 mountain stages, where Gesink gained time on 2 of them. From the 45 seconds deficit he had on Evans after the time trial, only 9 remain after 2 mountain top finishes and 1 other mountain stage with a normal finish...In a field much stronger than the Vuelta that Nibali wins. But I'm sure that all says nothing. So let's continue shall we?

Stage 13 Sierra Nevada

2 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia 0:00:52
3 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:01:16
4 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:01:17
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas
6 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:37
7 Joaquím Rodríguez (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:02:09
8 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:02:24

The famous stage where Evans popped, and where Mosquera surfaced.
GC after this?

1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 56:23:08
2 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:27
3 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:01:02
4 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:32
5 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:01:33
6 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia 0:02:06

At this point Gesink is certainly the most dangerous to Valverde, well actually he already was since he was the only one actually gaining time on all previous MTF's, bar Mosquera, but Mosquera is already 2 minutes behind, so he was REALLY no danger, unlike Gesink who was always never more behind than 30 seconds to Valverde and 45 to Evans...

So, what were you talking about Gallic Ho, really? Every stage so far, Gesink was either the best, or with the best of the GC riders, and logically therefore 2nd in the GC.

On to the pandera

3 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:03:08
4 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia 0:03:10
5 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:03:22
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:03:26
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:03:40

9 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:03:48

Gesink tried to crack Valverde on the steeper slopes, Mosquera and Sanchez were better that day. Valverde only ever outsprinted him on the flat on the top. Gesink did crack Evans (again) and Basso.
However even Sanchez only wins 18 seconds. So he was hardly much better, and lost more to Gesink in the previous stages, so that Vuelta, he wasn't the better climber was he?

GC:
1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 60:30:53
2 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:00:31
3 Samuel Sánchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0:01:10
4 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas 0:01:28
5 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto 0:01:51
6 Ezequiel Mosquera (Spa) Xacobeo Galicia 0:01:54

That's all mountain stages bar the last one done. The last one was an easy one with the Navacerrada. About 10/15 riders in the same time, bar Gesink because of his giant whole in his knee.
Ofcourse his final ITT performance isn't to be taken seriously for the same reason.

The first and 2nd ITT where very comparitve in length and hardness though. Had he been fit, and lose the same amount of time as in the 1st ITT, he would maybe lose 2nd place to Sanchez, and hold on to podium just in front of Evans.

Take the pure climbing time and ...guess what Gallic Ho? Guess who completed all mountain stages added together the fastest?


But yeah, I'm sure they all allowed him that time because they all knew Mosquera would ride into a hole into the ground and Gesink would ride behind him and get a nasty injury. So they all saw that coming.
They must have strong future telling senses in the peloton!

Best allrounder struggled to defeat Gesink in the mountains lol.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Apart from some nice Ardennes placings and the odd Tour/stage win, he's been good but has too many off days where he looses big time. I think he should hunt for stage wins, get a climbing jersey and then if he gets enough time, focus on GC. He's just not consistent enough climbing day in day out, for me to see him making any GC top 5 without some major corrections riding.

He was 4th in last year's Vuelta, but that was with a relatively weak field (especially with Andy in his usual non-Ardennes/Tour mode, Sastre in his 3rd GT of the year, Antón crashing out and ruining the race of Bruseghin, Plaza and Urán in the process, and Intxausti underperforming).

And he already has a mountain jersey (2005 Vuelta), and was 3rd to Angliru in 2008 (sticking with Contador longer than his team leader, and being the only Caisse rider not sacrificed when Valverde was an idiot on the way to Suances), so I can see why he may not be satisfied to do a Virenque and just collect GPMs (not to mention that he's now far too dangerous to let up the road to take the points so unless he's doing a Piepoli, he's going to find it hard to collect enough points).